If the Holy Spirit so powerfully guides readers of the bible in a vacuum, then how come all protestants don't come to same understanding of the bible? Why is it that only after Luther consensus among Christians broke down and denominations sky-rocketed?
Is this a dumb question? I am on the path to finding God and need help working out which theology is correct.
Thanks for you help Sup Forums.
God bless.
Other urls found in this thread:
youtu.be
nazarenespace.com
youtu.be
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
twitter.com
>lots of different people read some vague prophecies and legends
>don't come to the same conclusion about their meanings
are you new to humanity or what?
ayy lmao!
Luther's main point was that the Catholic church had become a corrupt political institution and that it would be wise for people to break off and "take the church back" for themselves. He was 100% correct about that too.
>Luther's main point was that the Catholic church had become a corrupt political institution and that it would be wise for people to break off and "take the church back" for themselves.
I don't doubt his sincerity or even that the Catholic Church was corrupt at this point.
My concern is that it didn't play out this way which doesn't really support his claim.
Am I being reasonable?
>If the Holy Spirit so powerfully guides readers of the bible in a vacuum, then how come all protestants don't come to same understanding of the bible?
Perhaps because God created us all as individuals. Maybe we're not supposed to have the EXACT same, cookie-cutter version of Christianity as each other. The gospel seems to tell me that your faith and your relationship with the Lord IS a very personal thing; unique to you and to you alone.
>Is this a dumb question?
I don't think so. It seems like a very honest, genuine one.
God bless, user.
>The gospel seems to tell me that your faith and your relationship with the Lord IS a very personal thing; unique to you and to you alone.
Every revelation is (potentially) unique? That's a heavy concept. I will need time to digest.
You have got to take knowledge from the source.
When Christ came, he didin't say " I have speculated on god and found out a new way of completing life", he has said that he came so he re-establish religion as IT USED TO BE in the world.
The catholics, so-called followers of Jesus, were disobeying christ from the very beggining.
Christ said : Thou shalt not kill
meanwhile from times immemoriable people are slaugthering animals on a mass scale. Then eventually the teachings of reincarnation (most importantly by Origenes, father of catholic church) got rejected by a Roman emperor ( Will give name later, if you really want to know google for yourself).
Some user posted simillary thread lately, here is what i said:
Wish you luck.
Forgot to add, pretty lately they changed it to Thou shalt not murder.
Look it up just how much of "medium" modern "christianity" is to Christ.
>men
>infallible in ability to read and understand texts
pick one
Christianity was much like islam is today in that bible was written in archaic latin thus only priests could read it and deseminate whatever they wished to the people. Luther translated the original greek/hebrew into german so the unwashed masses could finally read it and draw their own conclusions, a point that Luther himself would later regret once offshoot cults started popping up.
>infallible
This is important to me. The revelation from God must be infallible. If all interpretations are unique and correct, it dissolves its meaning to the point of the absurd.
There is only one correct revelation and therefore there is one correct interpretation. Wow, I sound like a zealot. But it seems logical.
>a point that Luther himself would later regret
That has important ramifications. Did Luther cause more harm than good to Christianity?
The Church was cautious when translating the Bible, sure. But that was because many theological mistakes could derive from improper translation. It took a long life of study to know how to properly translate a single chapter.
Luther did cause the translated bible to become widespread, but that was because the press was a new thing, not because the Church did not encourage translation. For instance, in 813, the Council of Tours approved and encouraged vernacular translations and homilies to aid understanding.
Furthermore, an excellent example of an Old English translation appears in perhaps the most famous medieval manuscript in the English-speaking world: the Lindisfarne Gospels (692-721). This is, in fact, the oldest surviving text of the Gospels in Old English.
He traded one evil for another. The catholic church was corrupt for sure, but it was consistant in its corruption. In attempting to open the doors for everyone, he allowed madmen and con artists to attract flocks with their own biblical interpretations that benefited themselves.
So whats to blame, the vagueness of the word of god or the acts of men? Both conclusions can be drawn.
>if all interpretations are unique and correct
not all interpretations are unique
but fallible men will naturally arrive at different conclusions
there is only one correct revelation and God holds you accountable to get it right even though you aren't infallible
the difference is reading for yourself and trying to work out what it is or putting your faith in a sect of Christianity that believes one man can actually be infallible on matters of scripture
that is the protestant perspective unless you're from an extremely degenerate denomination i.e episcopalian faggot priests and believe revelation has not actually been revealed or God has not spoken clearly or God's word changes or all religions are reach God through different paths or any of that other complete nonsense
in perspective
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
why would you even be warned that you could be deceived if it wasn't possible? that you could believe God but get it wrong?
yet there is still this expectation that you must get it right and if you don't you're still accountable
>So whats to blame, the vagueness of the word of god or the acts of men?
Both problematic.
>fallible men will naturally arrive at different conclusions
Knowing this, it seems like we should guard against this and that a central authority is a good method for check and balances. This is not to say that it cannot be corrupt, it certainly can. But it would be an important base of reference to ground ourselves in the truth.
I am not drawing conclusion here only speculating.
Check these videos out.
They point out all the heresies of Protestantism.
There's 42 total videos.
>and that a central authority is a good method for check and balances
I don't necessarily disagree at all but I can't stand the very concept of papal infallibility.
>implying God ever directly influenced the actions of any human being
Why would God do that? If he wanted humans to do what he wanted all the time, he wouldn't have made free will. If God wants humans to use their free will, he would not influence them. Humans are on our own in this grand experiment made to please God. He's there, and he's listening, but he's not going to intervene at all.
Many thanks! This will help a lot.
>I can't stand the very concept of papal infallibility
I agree. It is offensive that one man can have the last say. But this is instinctive, it may not be a fair reaction.
All Christianity is wrong. All of it accepts "apostle Paul" as canon. He is a liar. Christianity should be far more "Jewish" than you have come to believe. Yahowsha (Christ) did not come to create a new religion. He came to restore and fulfill the Towrah. It is his only authority and singular teaching.
www.blessyahowah.com
No prob Aussiebro... they're very enlightening.
t. A Protestant who turned Catholic.
Protestantism is like stealing the blueprints to a BMW M3 from the factory and attempting to make one in your garage with your drinking buddies. It's just not going to work.
The correct theology is that the entire Bible is not only correct, but 100% applies to your life RIGHT NOW.
Read this and realize we should be following God's law (Torah), just like Yeshua did (Jesus) and have faith in Jesus Christ.
nazarenespace.com
You want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
TORAH OBSERVANT FOLLOWERS OF YESHUA.
The original NAZARENES. This is the religion of Jesus and His apostles, not Christianity, which was started as a new religion from the Catholic Early Church "Fathers"
Protip: this symbol is the earliest symbol for the followers of Yeshua. It's the ones the Council of Jerusalem used (In Acts).
I think it is important to note that even though their are differing views, few if any deal with salvation. Rather simple really. Hear Believe Repent Be Baptized Live Holy Life.
>If the Holy Spirit so powerfully guides readers of the bible in a vacuum
I was raised baptist, and I'm not sure that this is a strong protestant doctrine.
But I share your hesitation about the diversity of opinions among protestants. I think personally I might switch to Catholicism. I think that they have a more rigorous theology.
THIS.
Torah Observant Followers of Yeshua is the WAY
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." - Revelation 14:12
See how something HORRIBLE happened between this writing of Revelation and what the Early Chruch "fathers" did to the faith started by Yeshua (Jesus)?
orthodoxy
Please correct me if I am wrong, but in the old Testament, the Jews were not monotheist. They believed in an ethnogod which competed against other gods in the area. Only Christ presents an all-power God for humanity which the jews misunderstood as their tribal deity.
Paul was not a liar. He was misunderstood. Ask me ANYTHING about Paul and I will explain it to you.
"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. " - 2 Peter 3:14-17
Remember anyone who interprets Paul to have advocated LAWLESSNESS is MISINTERPRETING PAUL!!!!!!! Peter warned all of you!!!
>Protestantism doesn't make sense to me
Good, that means you're sane.
Its all fucked.
No, Jews believed in one God, but it has always been one God with us. Look at this verse when the Father and the Son (Jesus) were talking about how to make Creation:
"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” - Genesis 1:26
Notice how its the Father talking to the Son?
After this the Father "went away" in some way and our entire interaction has been with Yeshua. Only until Revelation is God referred to in the plural again, when the Father returns in fire.
This is what confused some Jews, but we know this to be the case.
After all Jesus said, "None have seen nor heard the Father."
None but Jesus!
They do... and you'll find, as I did, what they [the Catholics] believe is literally taken from the Bible.
You as a Baptist, I am sure, have to been taught that you can't lose your salvation, that all you have to do is accept the "free gift," that baptism doesn't do anything, that communion is just symbolic.
And, you probably know that nothing they believe is actually stated in the bible. Nothing I listed that Baptists believe is found in the bible. It's ALL based off interpretation!
John 3:5 Jesus says we're born again through water and spirit. To us Catholics - it's simple. Jesus is talking about water baptism (which is supported by tons of other verses like 1 Peter 3:20-24). The Baptist will twist the verse out of its context to mean something completely other than what Jesus said. Why? Because they've been brainwashed to believe in faith alone lie.
Ever notice Baptists are great and talking about cults? That's because they're borderline cult themselves.
Before you jump onto the Catholic ship. Take some time and study for yourself. Read the verses your church uses to refute baptism and communion and then take the verses at their word - ask yourself it makes sense. I think you'll see it doesn't. That what Baptists believe is not biblical but man-made theology.
Remember, "God's" name is
YHWH - or Yod, Hey, Wah, Yeh
Literally Jesus' story is written into the name of God:
Yod - Nail
Hey- Behold
Wah - Hand
Hey - Behold
if the pope is the word of god, how come they keep changing shit up?
look.if you need a guy to tell you what to beleive down to the letter then go ahead be a catholic. but all religion is wrong and god is all around us.
Some people don't listen to the holy spirit, or as the bible says "quench." Paul also refers in the book of Hebrews I believe to exercises your senses to understand the scriptures. So part of it is common sense, and the rest of it is faith when your common sense fails to give you correct answer and you sense that some is not quite right.
When it all comes down to it, people are going to frame a lot of their theology around who they think God is and what they interpreted his Gospel as. Some people don't get it because they aren't seeking the right answer because they either don't think they need it or have already precluded it, so when they hear it, it is nonsense to them.
No this isn't a dumb question for you to ask. Denominations skyrocketed because of cultural reasons but also because of leaders of churches falling to the same petty manipulations that any church can fall to, even some of the greatest ones referred to in Revelation's beginning letters. It fragmented more because they were not long established and didn't have the same emphasis on corporate ecclesiastical authority.
This video destroys "Faith Alone."
Good luck staying Protestant after watching it.
It did. Protestantism lead helped seperation of church and state tremedously.
The "holy spirit" is the Word living inside us.
Quite literally it is the Bible living inside of us, which includes the LAW OF GOD (Torah) written on our hearts! Jesus followed Torah perfectly and we should try to do our best to follow it as well.
"If He lives in you you ought walk JUST AS HE DID."
Because they're just prayer groups not apart of the true apostolic succession.
I am sorry, but this is the kind of personal interpretation I have a problem with. I am not dismissing your view, I only think that it is clear example of revisionism that contradicts vast historical volumes.
I have mixed feelings about Catholicism myself, especially the doctrine that there is no salvation outside the roman catholic church. The thought of my protestant family going to Hell for worshiping Christ in the wrong sect is harsh, especially my mother who's very devout and loving but not the most theologically intelligent. I can't help but be drawn towards the Church either, theologically Catholics do make more sense in most cases
You should I did. It's way better.
Jews were true monotheists. But they didn't understand the multifaceted nature of God."
God the Father and God the Son are both the same, because they are alike one another, but they are also distinct. This is the mystery that was in Genesis 1:26 revealed to those who knew Torah.
And don't believe that nonesense about competing gods - God walked on feet in the garden, talked with a face to Moses, wrestled with a body with Jacob and came in the flesh as Yeshua. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN YESHUA (Jesus) because even Yeshua said "None have seen nor heard the Father."
That means it was ALWAYS YESHUA (Jesus)
>Maybe we're not supposed to have the EXACT same, cookie-cutter version of Christianity as each other. The gospel seems to tell me that your faith and your relationship with the Lord IS a very personal thing; unique to you and to you alone.
this shit here? where you pick and choose the stuff that makes you feel warm and fuzzy and let it alone guide you is referred to as "moral therapeutic deism." It steers you away from hard truths and makes it very hard to grow in your faith, dude. This is the sort of thing born agains hide behind when they chronically hurt their friends and loved ones with weakness and selfishness, by the by. It's why non Christians think we're hypocrites.
Investigate more structured faiths, like Catholicism, if this feels wrong to you.
( It did to me, obvs)
>Protestantism lead helped seperation of church and state tremedously.
A lack of consensus does not help Christians in my view. This is my concern. Can you alleviate it?
The main failing of any religion is that they are an attempt to explain spirituality through metaphor such that an idiot can understand it. A dumb peasant knows that a stern cloud father has instructions for him and punishments if they are not followed and thats enough for him. This metaphor crumbles for anyone who spares any thought to it, and this is also enough for some people, smugly basking in their percieved answer knowing themselves superior to the idiot masses who think their desert sky god really exists.
You obviously are putting thought into this and will therefore be disappointed following any established doctrine. You have three options, general spirtuality, straw-nihilism, or anti-nihilism.
>I am on the path to finding God
>Please tell me what to believe
Feck off ya cunt
Read the early church fathers in the link here.
It was the Early church Roman "fathers" who contradicted what Jesus said brother:
Look what Jesus said here:
"17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…" - Matthew 5:17-19
Heaven and Earth have not passed away yet brother!!!
Here is when that happens:
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." - Revelation 21:1
Well I believe that in the John 16:13 sense that the Spirit guides us into all truth.
>Torah
Please, I have already had a Hebrew roots phase when I was new to Christianity. Never again.
The Law of God I follow is the perfect law of liberty; the law of Moses is weak through the flesh, as it's written.
Heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 21:1
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:18
Be great in the kingdom. With Christianity you can only hope to be "least" in the kingdom.
>started feeling like going christian after the whole pizzagate thing.
>Go to my parents church.
>What the fuck is this cult shit
What did you find lacking in "Hebrew roots"?
I assure you it is the truth brother!
Tell me what problem you had and perhaps I can explain the error.
Separation of church and state is the opposite of what Luther planned. Those in positions of power were to always be held accountable by the Church, now we have the tail wagging the dog.
Check out the book:
Rock and Sand by Father Josiah Trenham
It is an Orthodox perspective on the Reformation.
He was trained as a Protestant minister by the best of the best (and there are some good ones).
If you have time check out this two part interview with him about the book. It's excellent and you will learn a lot about the whole situation:
Part I:
youtube.com
and
Part II:
youtube.com
The "Spirit" is the Word (all of the Word) implanted within you:
"Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls." - James 21:1
BECAUSE the Word (including God's law) is spiritual!:
"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin." - Romans 7:14
The Torah is the instruction book (along with the perfect example of it executed in life in the life of Jesus) to BECOME the New Creation brother!
First off, Religion is bullshit. I tried to believe and studied and studied the 1611 with a Strongs concordance for years.
Now to your question. Throw away all you were taught about why other denominations broke off. It's all bullshit for the followers of said denomination to believe.
Look into it for yourself via history. Different denominations came about because different countries were sick of their money going to the church in Rome. To keep that money within your country you break off from the church and proclaim that they are not following the true way/path/etc.
Got to a Catholic mass. STOP with the Protestant bullshit. Protestant churches today have turned into entertainment centers. There is no solemn worship - it's all New Boys songs up on an overhead for 15 minutes of people having a good time (feeling their entertainment) followed by 30 minutes of a pastor completely twisting verses out of context to fit his message.
GO TO A CATHOLIC MASS.
none of christianity makes any sense ya dingus
Also, do you realize that there is only ONE truth?
But the Bible says that Jesus is "The Way the Truth and the life"
and it also says this:
"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth." - Psalm 119:142
Torah = the same TRUTH as Yeshua
Because Yeshua is the Word made flesh!
Do you see?
and you are Polish. For sure.
Which theology is the *most* correct?
Orthodox.
i was brought up agnostic, but i got married to a catholic. when we had our 1st kid she was adamant he should become a catholic. i wasn't comfortable with this, so we met half way and decided our son would be left alone with the bible in his room for an hour a day. there would be no bias of denomination, and we felt whatever sort of christian he became from his own reading, it would be the most accurate denomination. when he turned 8, he said he was a calvinist, so make of that what you will.
Christians should have nothing to do with Jews. Their Talmud calls Mary a whore and tells the reader that Jesus was the Illegitimate son of Mary and a Roman solider.
Jews HATE Jesus and they're no fans of Christianity.
You right about evangelicals.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but the Catholic church is the most highly organized pedophile ring in the world. The Vatican has a net worth that is most likely larger than Russia.
The current pope is a Jesuit. Jesuits control the CIA and Democratic party of the US.
Jesuits are the Illuminati.
Yes, let your disbelief interfear with your wife's beliefs. Asshole.
The reason why the law of Moses is weak in us is because of our flesh, not because the law is wrong! Just because we cannot be perfect does not invalidate the very definition of sin:
"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." - 1 John 3:4
Jesus uses the Law of God and the Law of Moses interchangeably because they are the SAME LAW:
"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observec your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’d and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’e 11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” - Matthew 5:8-13
See how Jesus uses "what Moses said" interchangeably with "the Commandment of God."
They are the same thing! Besides God said that His law is eternal:
"All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal." - Psalm 119:160
Is God lying in this verse?
I appreciate it. This is also what I need.
The congregation said the Paul the Apostle was a liar and rejected his texts. Also following the law for salvation didn't coincide with the explanations about how Christ revealed the mystery of the gospel to us, how he saved Abraham etc. I think the book of Romans makes it pretty clear that the law and covenant made with Abraham are two different things, if Deuteronomy chapter 5 didn't already.
James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
its hard to believe that there are actual christians here. damn you guys are stupid.
Christians should have nothing to do with THE TALMUD!!! Not Torah! There is a big difference! Jesus was against the oral traditions of the elders, which later became Talmud:
"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." - 1 John 3:4
Jesus uses the Law of God and the Law of Moses interchangeably because they are the SAME LAW:
"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observec your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’d and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’e 11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” - Matthew 5:8-13
Torah is GOOD AND HOLY AND ETERNAL AND RIGHTEOUS and when the TORAH (Word) became flesh
HIS NAME AS YESHUA!
You had me unti you started wit the illuminated nonsense.
Yes, there have been priests who've done shit that should have landed them in prison. But, the number of priests who've done that is minimal to the total number. I'm not saying it's ok. But, to say the the entire church is ok with pedo acts because a few bad actors is like saying all evangelicals are raving lunatics becauuse of the Westboro church.
Besides, there are more pedophiles in public schools that the entire Catholic church.
WOW!!!!! NO NO NO NO THAT CONGREGATION IS TEACHING YOU FALSE DOCTRINE ABOUT PAUL!!!!!!!
That is NOT Hebrew roots bro - that's a cult!!!!
Where did they tell you Paul lied? I will PROVE TO YOU Paul obeyed Torah and practiced it till he died!
We are not required to keep the law for salvation, but BECASUE we are saved.
Jesus is the root of salvation
Works of the law is the FRUIT of salvation:
The law is what you are supposed to do AFTER you are saved!
Check this out:
There are more here than you realize - now go away.
You have to go back.
Watch this too brother:
youtube.com
People are misinterpreting PAUL. Peter warned of this in 2 Peter 3:13-17
Paul said this:
"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets," - Acts 24:14
I agree that the Law of God is truth, but the other aspect of the truth is that anyone but God can fulfill it.
That's why Jesus Christ the son of the living God had to do it for us because he saw us as sheep without a shepherd. Refer to Psalms 14. That is the truth about the law; it exists to prove that we must rely on his mercy because we cannot trust ourselves to fulfill his law.
To even attempt to follow the law and pretend it is our justification for righteousness is wrong. Isaiah 64:6 said it right that even our righteous deeds are as filthy rags before God, they are not sufficient. Only God's sacrifice is.
yeah this board is terrible. peace
Jesus never changed the law brother. If He did He would be a sinner and not the perfect sacrifice for OUR sins!
"You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you." - Deuteronomy 4:2
The Catholic Church was formed as a corrupt organization. You're not being reasonable.
"Fulfill" (plero) is MISTRANSLATED!"
plero means to fully validate or to fully teach.
I will prove it to you!
look at this verse:
"in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached (plero) the gospel of Christ." - Romans 15:19
Did Paul "abolish" the gospel of Christ? Of course not! He FULLY PREACHED IT. Its the same word in Greek brother! Your pastors are lying to you (likely they don't know)
the traditional catholic faith is the only christian church which Christ established. outside of which there is no salvation. protestantism is a heresy which began in 1520 AD 1500 years after the catholic church was created. to those who say "well dah katolik church was created by constantine in 325 ad" look at tyhis from st justin martyr in 155 AD.
The law is not our righteousness, Yeshua is!
But what do you do AFTER you are saved! You are to "Go and sin no more!" The law is the Biblical definition of sin! You can't throw out that perfect law!
"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." - 1 John 3:4
“ No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.
We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.
The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.
On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.
On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.
If you're talking about the Old Testament laws, those were replaced with the New Covenant of Jesus.
Romans 3:28 tells us we are saved by faith and not works of the law. - the works of the law and the 623 laws of Moses that were no longer required for salvation.
The New Testament explains the path to salvation for the Christian. Baptism, Communion, calling upon the name of the Lord, good works in His name, etc...
Maybe I'm not following your discussion well - if not,, my bad - but it sounds like you're trying to champion an adherence to the old law.
When? Show me when? Show me the verses where this happened and I will show you why you are wrong. (no offense)
just to make it clear try to find a traditional latin mass parish or an eastern rite catholic parish and attend mass their, live a holy life in obedience to the commandments of christ.
>christianity
>not the glorious synthetic unitarian religion that was supplanting
>not realizing manichaeism was only stopped by islam, and was the only religion it fully wiped out
>not realizing it is the heir to Roman, Persian, and Mauryan empires
plebs
Really?
Because the very same Eucharist we celebrate today is the very same communion celebrated back in 100 AD - according to Justin Martyr's "First Applogy". Care to share your sources?
And, no qouting pastor Hee Haw from his sermon on dem dare evil Catholics doesn't count as a source.
We are not saved by works of the law, I TOTALLY BELIEVE THIS.
HOWEVER, what do you do AFTER you are saved? Do you go on sinning? No, we try to "go and sin no more." The Biblical definition of sin in in Torah. There is only one law brother.
"Ceremonial law" appears 0 (zero) times in the Bible - it is a FALSE DOCTRINE and a man made lie!
No no no, I said I believe in the older scriptures like Paul too, but the context is different from how the Jews read it. But Paul was largely the one that delineated those differences in his preaching and letters.
>But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
There's no sidestepping this. His view on the Old Testament is not the same by any means, and it is the canon way Christians interpret it.
>The Catholic Church was formed as a corrupt organization.
If this is true then what kind of power is behind it that allowed it survive all this time? Wouldn't an entity built on corruption tear itself apart?
You seem to be implying that Catholicism is the seat of Satan. Can you support this claim? I am curious how this works.
While this thread is up:
When people used to ask "What Would Jesus Do?" why did they never come to the logical conclusion of what Jesus actually did and gather troops to fight the government that has done evil or out-right kill the enemies of goodness and holiness themselves?
That "vail" was from the old testament!:
"They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand." - Isaiah 44:18
He was talking about the punishment God gave the Jews for BREAKING THE TORAH.
Jesus opened their eyes and lifted the curse and wrote the SAME LAW on their hearts!
Do you think the prophecy of the "law being written on their hearts" was NOT Torah? The prophets who wrote about it KNEW it was Torah!
Paul had the same way of viewing the Torah as Jesus did and David did. I guarantee it and can prove it to you with only Scripture.
The mystery about how to be saved did not come from the law, but the "Law made flesh" (Word made flesh).
In this way, Jesus saved them! Your sins (transgressions of the law) are forgiven, but the law is eternal!
"All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal." - Psalm 119:160
Was God lying in this verse? Is God a God of confusion that He should change His mind?
KJV Romans 3:38
>Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
NIV Galatians 2:16
>know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
There are THREE types of works in the New Testament.
1. Works of the Law, which Paul talks about quite a bit - the 613 Law of Moses.
2. Work of Righteousness as discussed by James in Chapter 2.
3. Works of Boasting - Which Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:9. Paul was talking about people who do good works for pats on the back. Much like modern day movie stars make a big production when they donate money to some cause.
The works we need to concern ourselves with are those discussed by James.
Paul says we are saved by faith - no but following the old law.
James says we are saved by works of righteousness.
>KJV Romans 3:38
>Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Faith without works is DEAD!
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." - James 2:14-16
TRUE HEBREW faith includes ACTION. Greek faith is not the same as HEBREW faith. The meaning of faith in Greek is a "lighter" way of saying I believe you. Belief in Jesus INCLUDES action.
The process hasn't completed yet. God's not some wagecuck making you a burger, dipshit.
Here are the "Laws" Paul was talking about: