Determinism

Have you accepted that nothing in this universe is random and that 'free will' is just an illusion?

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Yes. I've accepted it based on what i know. I don't think there is a soul.

Have you accepted sunyata and pratityasamutpada?

free will is real since we cannot see all the strings

>determined to be free

Our "free will" is determined by our subconscious desires, not by any "magic"

Our subconsciousness aren't magic either. It's just a chain of neurons being fired in a theoretically predictable pattern. There is no free will.

free will does exist you faggot materialist. of course all matter and energy functions based off of certain laws that basically amount to mathematical equations, but to imply that sapience isnt an outside variable to that you are autistic on a dangerous level.

there IS more to this universe than meets the eye OP, and materialistic nihilists are some of the most dangerous degenerates around.

Yes.

If you are able to accept that there is no free will, you are the proof that free will exists.

It literally makes no difference whether we have free will or hard determinism.

The only argument you can make is how you feel about it.

>he thinks free will can't exist in a deterministic universe
ROFL

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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That was a very irrelevant and poorly written response. Our brains do not function outside physics.

I view a belief in free will and ones ability to control themselves a result of an identification with the going ons of ones brain. It's a feeling of "I will this" that a healthy mind produces. Its absence is like a disease.

Better not to think of free will as an impossible idea, that one's thought could act contrary to the laws of the universe, arbitrarily. There would be no sense in that, and it is not necessary for free will as I described it, which is all we need.

we have free will, but the majority act in such a predictable manner that it might as well be determinism

My brain being aware of my lack of free will only means that I was destined to learn the truth. I don't suddenly have free will just because I realized my own situation.

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Most of the people I've met who honestly felt like free will didn't exist were people who refused to take responsibility for their actions.

no but our souls do

>inb4 GOD DOESNT REAL *tippo*

>he thinks linguistics is the same as metaphysics
ROFL

Buddhist, as much as i respect them trying, think they are just masters of self deception. Shit that buddha thought was actually pretty fucking depressing and scary if you think deep enough. He was more of a existentialist/nihilist than most people realise.

>bundles in damage control knowing they can't argue actual logic.

Have you accepted "I think, therefore am" and realized that a purely materialistic worldview can only account for philosophical zombies and not actual consciousness and life?

Have you accepted that even purely materialistically, the fabric of the universe displays chaotic and random patterns, patterns which are seemingly influencible by observation alone. Thus there is no pure determinism.

Have you accepted the Prime Mover argument and realized that even in a purely materialistic universe, there is no universe without something outside of it to set it onto motion?

Buddhism is 50/50 suffering/happiness.
Yeah, there's suffering everywhere but there's also beautiful flowers too, mang.

>Hypocrite that you are, would you trust the chemicals in your brain to tell you that they are nothing but chemicals?

No, because it isn't true. On a sub-atomic level there is uncertainty. Randomness does exist and it permeates up through the levels of physics into all systems. Therefore the universe is NOT deterministic, and to claim that it is is empirically false.

Nah, dig deeper into physics, nothing is 100% predictable.

>buddhism is 50/50 suffering/happiness.

Actually its not. Most of that divide comes from Mahayana buddhism. The focus on compassion is pretty well developed in most of schools but its mostly prominent in Mahayana. Zen and Theravada are actually far more darker than most people know.

I'd go so far as to say: our souls objectively exist, but matter does not. The truth is the polar opposite of materialism.

>argument you cant refute is automatically damage control

nu-Sup Forums folks, its here to stay if you dont chase it out

Everything Buddha says about reincarnation is to be taken on faith, and people do take it on faith, as the religion reaffirms their already existing belief that the world and life is a sickness and disease, instead of recognizing that they, themselves, are sick and diseased. Their sickness does not extend to everyone else.

Even accepting reincarnation, its still wrongheaded. I would turn the wheel if there were but one good life for a thousand filled with mediocrity and suffering.

>Fell the the cell jew meme

Consciousness isn't some magical thing. it's just a complex sensory system that observes the universe around it. Even philosophy can be simplified down to numbers.

Just because something is incomprehensibly complex doesn't mean it's not theoretically predictable.

Even quantum physics follows a pattern we just can't grasp yet.

The Prime mover argument is a paradox.

This. You are free as long as you are not omnipotent.

Characters in a story are "free" within the context of their own universe even though we are omnipotent and can see them make the same decisions over and over.

omniscient, I meant to say.

Uncertain model of universe is still very controversial and young theory. There is a lot of theories out there trying to 'unify' quantum and classical physics but some of them actually try to do it without uncertainty. The one with it are just most popular right know.

Also even if, the uncertain random fluctuations are as far as i know to small to affect macro-cosmos. None of quantum effects actually affect determinism but then again this is as above still mostly in question.

We just don't know yet.

god has a plan for everyone. It's just very vague, not thought all the way through, not very detailed, and up to you to follow it.

The universe is random but free will is an illusion. There is so many layers of subconscious decision making that it's hard to argue that any choice is "random"

well look at you, little philosophy leaf. i like you

Without God. free will is an illusion.

I can defend this.

Even sub-atomic particles follow a complex predictable pattern. The universe IS deterministic.

>our souls objectively exist
>objectively

Go ahead and provide me empirical evidence.

Please, don't make such statements and misuse such words. If you believe souls exist, that's fine, I have no issue; but to say they "objectively" exist is beyond what you can utter.

>our souls objectively exist
You mean
>our souls subjectively exist

have fun with this fags
youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4

With God free will is a true illusion

No.

>Consciousness isn't some magical thing. it's just a complex sensory system that observes the universe around it. Even philosophy can be simplified down to numbers.
How can something that doesn't exist observe anything?
>Just because something is incomprehensibly complex doesn't mean it's not theoretically predictable.
Prove it that humans are theoretically predictable
>Even quantum physics follows a pattern we just can't grasp yet.
Prove this as well.
>The Prime mover argument is a paradox.
It represents something outside the context of our universe. Outside our universe, the laws of motion do not exist.

Im pretty sure most of Buddha's teaching were precisely to oppose what you just said.

Not only concept of reincarnation but the whole turning wheel? Stop turning the wheel because not any of the life's will be 'good life'. they all are suffering.

This is something i sadly agree with.

>With God free will is a true illusion
We have to show what God is.
Follow closely:

>Cause and effect exists
>The universe is deterministic
>Infinite regression cannot sustain it
>Something else must sustain it
>There must be a cause in the past that was not deterministic
>That cause sustains the universe and itself
>That is the creative power that is called God
>God is not deterministic in nature
>If religion is true, then God can make free will possible as it directly relates to Him
>Religion is a subroutine outside of universe
>From it causes choices in some limited way

God Buddhism is overrated shit. Its basically just trussed up nihilism with a cunty superiority complex because "lol everything sux, bra just accept it"

>choices in some limited way
>limited way
Still an illusion

Thats one way to put it.

Do you not agree with it? 'That everything sux' i mean?

well, you're going to be in for a mighty surprise when you die.

This is the most nigger-tier ideology.

>Ayyyoooo when I shot that guy I ain't got no choice since errythin I did wuz the consequence of a sequence of events and my actions were the results of biological determinism dat I cant control, so ya can't throw me in prison

>Ayoooo who cares if I shot some niggas ass, he aint even real, hes just an automaton and his sense of pain, and even his life and death were just meaningless transient events and chemical processes, so he aint got no inherent rights

>Still an illusion
You seem to not understand the definition.
Through God, if religion and divine revelation is to believed, allows people to choose God specifically, but that is about all. Everything else is deterministic.

No, I do not. Yes life is suffering but its proportionally the opposite of that. Its two sides of the same coin, without "suffering" there is no "goodness" to compare it to.

The balance evens things out, the wheel is not positive or negative (suffering) primarily it just "is". Saying that the cycle should be broken is cutting off your nose to spite your face, its a moot premise. People need to choose their own destiny and fight for the outcome they want or they don't deserve shit, opting out like some bald fat prick because it makes you look super deep and "too intelligent to live" is pathetic.

>allows people to choose God specifically, but that is about all.
>Everything else is deterministic.
Still proving my point free will only for belief

>illusion
>God lets us do what we want
>observes, and shows us signs that we are on the wrong path when we follow a sinful way of life

I don't see the problem
Either way, God is beyond time and matter. You cannot contain a "creator" or "god" within the same realm that its creation exists.

The illusion of free will is plenty. Anybody who asks for more is a glutton.

Buddhism isn't nihilism. There's emptiness, but there's still purpose. Nihilism is the denial of purpose.

It's kind of like saying Nietzsche was a nihilist.

You have to understand, you are simply part of my reality, so I understand your feelings of helplessness. They are valid. You are helpless. I quite enjoy being a god. It's neat.

Yep, I'm just waiting to see the inevitable result of modern civilization. The ending's already been written, I just have to live long enough to see it.

>Still proving my point free will only for belief
I wasn't aware that was your point.
But yes, only if revelation is real is free will possible in belief.

this is truth.

>pic related, its the geometric patterns that make different types of carbon based substances like oil, or sand paper.

consciousness isn't dependent on the 5 senses. rather the 5 senses are seals that block people from the true nature of consciousnesses

buddha both denied, and confirmed the existence of god in the same village, he told devotees that there is no god, and an atheist that god does exist.

>Everything Buddha says about reincarnation is to be taken on faith, and people do take it on faith, as the religion reaffirms their already existing belief that the world and life is a sickness and disease, instead of recognizing that they, themselves, are sick and diseased. Their sickness does not extend to everyone else.


anything, and everything buddha said is to be taken into self reflection with no interference from church bodies. having faith is having a poor understanding of how to study religion, and an insult to the creator who gave you a mind.

honestly. I'm seeing a lot of ignorance on this board, and on the subject in general.

KKEWWLLLL

This.

>We're all just floating like leaves in the wind, we have no control, no decisions matter, feelings don't matter, everything is meaningless yayyyyy let's get high and touch each other's privates god I feel so good being absolved of all responsibility as a result of my denying the inscrutability of the passage of time.

faggots.

You think you so smart

tell me this then smart man.
where does rain go?

dumb berry picker think nothing of surroundings
think he understand life.
go away, berry picker!
nation wrecker!

No.

wew lad, that's deep

>yet.

HAHAHAHHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

NICE FAITH BROSKI

Even if determinism was true, pragmatically speaking we still need to hold ourselves accountable for our actions so that we could better ourselves.

Free will might be an illusion, but it can be a pragmatic one.

Determinism doesn't preclude being thrown into prison or the chair for being a danger to society. You were always going to fire that gun. You were always going to get a lethal injection.

Yes, I agree with you with some qualifications.

The free will God gives us is very limited. God assigns us with our lot in life, out only choice is whether or not to accept Him, the Creator.

dogs dont have free will you still kill them when they bite people

Consciousness does it exist, obviously. However, 'free will' is just an illusion resulted from our human constructs.

Humans and our brains are just matter and energy following the laws of physics. Everything around us, all the stimuli that effects us also follow these same laws. Our lives and the universe around us have been following a theoretically determined path long before we existed.

I can't prove quantum physics is predictable for the very reason I said. But until we understand the true nature of quantum particles, you can't use it for your own argument either.

>Outside of our universe the laws of motion do not exist.

I think you mean observable universe.

It's not about justifying your degenerate behavior, but realizing that everything that has happened is the only possible thing that could have happened.

Indeed. Determinism is not fatalism. It is deterministic because we have such impulses like justice not in spite of them.

>Even sub-atomic particles follow a complex predictable pattern.


Fucking lol. You've not done much reading about Quantum Mechanics have you? I'm not saying its impossible but there's no good evidence one way or the other.

This.

Yet the same faculties that lead you to that conclusion also present to you the illusion of volition your every waking minute.

Why the elaborate ruse?

Quantum physics happens at a scale so small, human brains are entirely uneffected. So it wouldn't matter if it were truly random anyway. And even if it did have an effect, how can you call that free will? It's just randomness you have no control over. Probably pilot-wave theory, too.

Nietzsche shits pretty hard on buddhism and calls it nihilistic. Seeking a content state is denying life.

Free will is as much of an illusion as motion.

Yes, but it's not meaningful.

So it's an illusion then. Glad we're on the same page.

He had a very fundamentally superficial understanding of Buddhism, which skewed views on Buddhism in the West for a long time.

It's likely an evolutionary advantage.

You should read this book, Consciousness and the Brain. Really good stuff. Should be able to find it online fairly easily.

No. I choose to put my faith on the idea that I'm responsible for my outcome.

You have to pick on or the other. If things aren't random then free will must exist. You can't be a proper fedora tipping materialist shithead without claiming randomness to be your deity.

> Universe is random

I doubt.
Life is the highest argument against entropy.

reality is not deterministic
it is probabilistic
the universe is neither completely random nor completely predictable

If everything really is vibrations then 20 20 vision is false everything should be blurry

>If things aren't random then free will must exist.
Randomness can exist without free will if you have no control over said randomness. Which would defeat the purpose of something being random to begin with.

How can vibrations be real if our eyes aren't real?

Not like i don't agree with you but this sentence made me think about something.

Why on earth thinking the opposite and being aware of the 'illusion' of life would be a good adaptation? The problem of consciousness is an old as civilisation so its pretty 'natural' for human to think about it im sure.

This is something that irks me from time to time much. It might be mental wisdom tooth i guess.

>proceeds blindly without analysis
Yep, basically proves free will is an illusion.

So are we all god thinking about ourself?

> I choose to put my faith on the idea that I'm responsible for my outcome.

Responsability comes from an outsider aspect of empathy which is the root of determinism: Synchronicity

The "self" by itself is one of the greatest problems of the modern age because it's messy and unpredictable.

What is the probability that the universe exists?
You see how your line of reasoning degenerates into practical absurdity.
+10 edge points though.

Humans have been short-circuiting the path lead by evolution for decades, and now it's really picking up steam. It's not surprising at all that we're starting to see the walls crumble before our eyes.

Free will is epistemic, you idiot. Physical determination wouldn't imply absense of free will. Put down "Nietzsche for 8th Graders" and go read some real philosophy. Then go to church.