How fucked are we?

No memes. Can we ever pay this off or are we just living on borrowed time until a complete economic collapse?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=HdtU3UI-JoY
m.csmonitor.com/1997/0207/020797.econ.econ.2.html
forbes.com/sites/charleskadlec/2012/07/16/the-dangerous-myth-about-the-bill-clinton-tax-increase/#7633cf1f772c
wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444226904577559412267408438?mg=reno64-wsj
washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/the-clinton-economy-in-charts/?utm_term=.90070c2a0868
google.com/finance/historical?cid=13756934&startdate=Mar 1, 1996&enddate=Mar 1, 2001&num=10&ei=NTo0VKj4GceZ8wbqooHoCw
treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/search?startMonth=01&startDay=20&startYear=1993&endMonth=01&endDay=19&endYear=2000
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

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I think we're fucked. If the economy is doing fairly well but we're still accumulating debt, it must mean we're trapped in a hole. Obama's "tax & spend" plan has failed, but at least he got to force all of his social engineering policies on us!

No. Trump's ridiculous Infrastructure + tax cuts plan will kick us deeper down this hole

>no memes
FeelsBadOP.jpeg

Day of the rake when?

> Can we ever pay this off or are we just living on borrowed time until a complete economic collapse?

We aren't likely to pay it off; but we may be able to get it under control.

Frankly most of the world's governments have a pretty huge amount of debt. The United States debt is bad, about 105% of GDP; but its far from the worst. China and Japan both have a level of debt that exceeds 200% of their GDP.

The debt is a big problem because of the interest payments alone; but its not likely to result in an economic collapse any time soon.

It's actully good for the economy to collapse - reasearch austrian business cycle for more info.

Answering your question: Yup, the economy will collapse. The only reason why it hasn't yet is because the Dollar is still the reserve currency of most of the countries, therefore the demand for dollars has been, so far, able to counteract the rising inflation but it will not remain like this forever (just take a look at how fast the debt is growing)

The only way you guys can leave this crisis without a major shitstorm is if the FED gets audited (closed preferably), the money needs to be privatized and in case the FED remains they should allow the interest rate to be dictaded by the market. I could go on but I guess that my point is pretty clear by now.

more free market less regulation

Debt to gpd ratio was worse at earlier points in our history. Politicians just need to stop frivolous spending and things will get better

we are fucked

not fucked unless you lose the will to kill when the time comes

>tax & spend
>exclusive to Democrats
You fell for the "small government" meme that the Republicans were selling since Reagan. Rep's spend nearly as much as Dems, just in different places, primarily defense. The truth is, Republicans don't want a smaller Federal government, never have, they don't want to get rid of the very platform that employs them. They did, however, sell you on a line of bullshit that is "small government" while shifting where the majority of the budget got spent.

Do you think something along the lines of a "Debt War" could emerge? Where it's given that one nation will never pay itself off, so other nations use that as justification to "reposes" their assets by force. Could debt be the cause of WW3?

Always trust great Anglo Canadians to make the most disgusting, stinky, shitty, horrible, and ABHORRENT posts on this beautiful forum.

The short answer is yes, the U.S. could in fact get a lot of its financial issues under control if there was a will to do so, but there isn't and so you're most likely going to get an economic collapse at some point. When exactly that will be is basically impossible to predict though.

Clearly we just need to become strong enough to tell anyone that wants to collect on debt to fuck off with force.

Who do Americans even owe to?

jews probably

@104555296
People like you are why it's so hard for leafs to be taken seriously on the internet. Every post a Canadian makes is held under supreme scrutiny, because faggots like you perpetuate the stereotype.

Other countries that are also in debt to america.

WE CAN OP WE CAN HERE ME OUT first we gotta find out how to raise the dead then we gotta raise Andrew Jackson from the grave to kill the bank. We all have worthless money but no debt simple. Then ya know we deal with consequences later

SHUT UP TEXAS

This American gets it. The dems and repubs are two sides of the same coin for US citizens as far as government presence is concerned.
And for kicks, read what name is on that coin. It will be the eternal Jew.

can someone explain the U.S national debt situation to me? most articles ive read read about it claim that most of its debt is owned by government agencies. how is that possible? also, how did the U.S become indebted to China?

hows it goin their texas

fuck yeah bud

>it's another "all debt is bad" thread with people only having high school economics knowledge

high level of debt is normal for advanced economies

it just sounds like a lot for US in absolute $ terms because we are the largest economy

IMF, international banks, Rothchild, Israel, Saudis... Anyone who would be a threat to America's sovereingnty anyother day of the week, but because the Federal Reserve owes them money, they are buddies.

> Can we ever pay this off or are we just living on borrowed time until a complete economic collapse?
haha
:^)

>a system where money is created as debt on which interest must be paid
>not a ponsi-scheme
>it'll all be fine goyim

Please explain to us how borrowing capital and spending more than a country can generate doesn't lead to the country being under control by the lender's power.
It is always the Jews, isn't it? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, it honestly is always the Jews.

How come Texas gets its own flag?

Have you ever heard of a financial reset? It has happened often historically between nations to maintain currency values. Before borrowing or lending countries generally agree to "reset" terms. In these terms are general protections that allow large debt between countries from starting a war. If it did not exist countries would have been at war more often than they have historically.

And if they expect a dime of it, they better keep us afloat, or we'll drag them down straight to hell with us.

You got 5 responses and they're all right wing retards.

2/3 of the US debt they owe to themselves. The biggest of which is the Social Security Trust Fund.

Foreigners only hold 6/19 T so less than 1/3.

For example these retards always splerging about muh china owns the US, yet ironically Japan now holds more debt but they never splerg out about muh japan. They're just fucking morons.

As always Obama Leaf comes through with the correct answers and the red pills

1 more 4 the trigger

Even better is when (((they))) realize (((they))) need to import shitskins because shitskins come into countries with little to no debt, so that the scheme can continue.

...

> It's another "we're fucked lol Cus debt is bad Mkay" from retards who have a pre-school level understanding of macroeconomics

Really makes you think

this leaf is right, the fact that you don't even know that the majority of debt is owned by domestic funds means you guys really have no fucking clue how our economic system works

If it's intentional it's a terrible plan.
A ponsi-scheme only works on the small scale, if you cut and run from the american economy the money you earned is at risk of being rendered useless by hyper inflation.
Now if you could seize military power instead of monetary wealth then cause financial collapse, you could use that to take over the country though i don't really understand why you'd want a country in financial ruin.
I dunno man i tried to spin it but i can't see how anyone would think this was a good idea. Incompetence seems like the likeliest cause at least to me.

How is debt bad again?

The US has the highest rating in the world. The US government will never be broke.

It's not like the US is Mexico where capitals could suddenly stop like it happened in the 80s.

Also aprobably this generation won't have to pay for it anyway.

Default on the entire national debt.
Dissolve the Federal Reserve under constitutional authority.
Balance the budget.
Pass a constitutional Amendment that makes deficit spending illegal.

Also, Trump can negotiate the National debt default. This is entirely possible and will save the country.

Yep, Americans don't have a fucking clue about our Macroeconomic system. People still LARPing about the "China owns us" meme in current year because nobody had a clue what was happening. Since the recession in 2008 almost everything changed about our economy, commercial and business laws completely changed over night.

>Obamaleaf wrong again about the clinton tax

The Misleading Claim: President Clinton's higher tax rates resulted in an economic boom. We need to bring back his tax rates!
First, let's acknowledge one fact as loud and clear as possible: the economy DID perform fairly well at the time Clinton was President. THAT'S reasonable to conclude. What's less reasonable, however, is to conclude that his tax policy was the cause of that growth.
Democrats routinely point to Clinton's average GDP growth rates and ignore the fact that wages arguably stagnated during his first 4 years in office after enacting the '93 tax increases. [1] This is likely why Clinton's results are commonly averaged across his entire tenure, as to mask the stark contrast between both terms. They discount the fact that Clinton's '93 tax increases were followed in '97 by tax CUTS, after Clinton HIMSELF acknowledged the taxes had been too high. Speaking at a fund raiser in 1995, President Clinton said: ”Probably, there are people in this room still mad at me at that budget because you think I raised your taxes too much. It might surprise you to know that I think I raised them too much, too.” [2] Also conveniently missing from the narrative is that economic growth quickened from 3.2% a year to 4.2% a year AFTER the tax CUTS were introduced. [3]

>Part II next

What kind of circumstances would you need where debt would not be an issue?

How much of this debt overhang problem is dependent on economic factors being the same? If there was some technical or energy innovation which moved us into a post scarcity economy, would we shrug off the debt and go on living?

President Clinton benefited from unique and abnormal timing; he happened to be President at the time our ever-evolving society experienced the advent of a brand new, history defining, civilization changing industry, called the internet.
As Edward Conard of the Wall Street Journal explains, "Commercialization of the Internet lifted the Nasdaq from 800 in 1995 to 4,500 in 2000, the largest five-year gain of any major index in American history. Put bluntly, increased payoffs for successful investment and rising equity values simply dwarfed offsetting increases in marginal tax rates. The taxes themselves didn't increase growth." [4]
It was this expanding bubble of over-investment which helped temporarily propel growth. Clinton averaged 3.8% growth in real GDP throughout his tenure. [5] That's rather decent. But the bubble began to deflate in March of 2000 as the once "new" industry gradually stabilized and investment strategies returned to normal. [6] In the year that followed the bursting of that dot-com bubble, growth slowed, culminating in a recession that took place 2 months after Clinton left office. [7] One need not be a defender of George W. Bush to recognize that the downward trend he inherited coincided with the bursting of the tech bubble. It's interesting to ponder how this downward trend WOULD have been part of Clinton's legacy had he simply been President a few months longer.
The point is, the investment trends of the business cycle coupled with the extremely rare occurrence of a revolutionary new industry made for a powerful bubble of growth whose influence arguably outweighed that of any one man, even a President. This atypical level of capital investment, unlike that of other decades, would've bolstered the record of ANY leader presiding at that time, regardless of party affiliation.

>Part III next

I'm not an economist so I have no fucking clue, but I just go with that none of that debt actually matters, because evidently it means nothing. If a person was in that much debt, they would be declared bankrupt for a billion years.

I think governments can just accumulate all the debt in the world and just continue to print money like it's no-ones business.

So to establish causality between high tax rates and good economic times, one needs more than to simply cite the Clinton era. Clinton was and will always be the only President in history lucky enough to preside during the internet revolution. Much like the advent of the steam engine and the industrial revolution, it's a rare advancement in technology that was part of a long term trend with roots tied to the policies of predecessors. While the 90's tax policies were in no way irrelevant, their positive or negative influence on GDP was likely constrained within the broader influence of the largest tech bubble in recorded history. In other words, you can't simply reinstate Clinton-era tax policy and get the same economic growth.

>Citations next

You are disgusting

>It is always the Jews, isn't it? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, it honestly is always the Jews.

Hence the phrase: Sup Forums is always right

>part 3 next

nice copy pasta bro

Remember when Republicans predicted the Clinton economy would fail when he raised taxes on the rich?

I remember.

The retarded newt got btfo

youtube.com/watch?v=HdtU3UI-JoY

Citations:
[1]
m.csmonitor.com/1997/0207/020797.econ.econ.2.html

[2] [3]
forbes.com/sites/charleskadlec/2012/07/16/the-dangerous-myth-about-the-bill-clinton-tax-increase/#7633cf1f772c

[4] [7]
wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444226904577559412267408438?mg=reno64-wsj

[5]
washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/the-clinton-economy-in-charts/?utm_term=.90070c2a0868

[6]
google.com/finance/historical?cid=13756934&startdate=Mar 1, 1996&enddate=Mar 1, 2001&num=10&ei=NTo0VKj4GceZ8wbqooHoCw

I love killing you every time you show up

As usual, the Republicans wrong about everything when they're in opposition and DINDU NUFFIN when they're in charge and fuck everything up.

Pls have cancer

American education at its finest

> Default on the entire national debt.
Lol, ok... kill the dollar forever. Enjoy your international transactions in Yuan

>Dissolve the Federal Reserve under constitutional authority.
Ok... kill monetary policy. Sure Greece, Spain and Ireland did great during the crisis when they gave their monetary instruments to the ECB. Also, governments do great managing money, like in you know, Zimbabue.
>Balance the budget.
What about just taxing the rich? Oh sure! Those correlations between GDP, employment and lowering taxes are hella strong.
>Pass a constitutional Amendment that makes deficit spending illegal.
Those restrictions sounds efficient for the market

The entire global economy is reliant on American debt. The moment somebody tires to call in a debt (which they wouldn't) the ENTIRE global economy collapses. We've basically got a gun to the head of the whole planet and very much just egging them on to try to fight back.

I already killed you before you could even spam your copy pasta
I already ended you.

The retarded newt got btfo

youtube.com/watch?v=HdtU3UI-JoY

> red pills
The fucking leaf thinks he found a red pill on Wikipedia.

>strawman again

I didn't say anything about republican's being the reason being the success.

So barring a nation deciding to pull the rug out from under 7 billion people, american governmental debt is completely meaningless. People who harp on and on about it are idiots.

Remember when Bill Clinton said he wanted to deport all illegals and Dems were fine with it? I remember

>Measuring debt as anything but a debt to GDP ratio
>No one has even pointed this out in the thread

Correction: in the 1990s that was the Gingrich surplus.

Retarded libertarian detected

>Strawman me more senpai

try again econ buddy

>US being in debt
lol nigga just ignore it like wtf man what are the creditor nations gonna do, start a war?

no it wasn't guy.

Republicans, too, are often disingenuous with this issue. While they routinely separate Clinton's two terms to illustrate that most of his economic gains occurred in his second term, coinciding with the election of the Republican led congress and the passage of their tax cut legislation, they attempt to take credit for the economic gains of 1997-2000 while conveniently absolving themselves of any culpability for the 2001 recession, which they dubbed "The Clinton Recession." Either they influenced the economy or they didn't; it can't be both.

This is unironically correct despite how its phrased

If you think national debt isn't the worst thing in the world you have a preschool understanding of economics retard

> Default on the entire national debt.

Trump already publicly joked about doing this.

He will cause the end of the USD as the global reserve currency and thus the end of the American superpower.

The guy is a fucking retard.

It's denominated in fiat you can print, so yes ... you can trivially pay it off.

what the hell is a kike doing in colombia

>Cannot debate my points I brought up so ignores and moves on

You're comedy friendo

You know nothing about economics

Remember when BASED BILL CLINTON left Bush and a GOP Congress a $230 billion budget surplus and a plan to wipe out the national debt within 10 years

Then what happened?

Then Republicans happened.

>inb4 right wing dindu nuffins

We are not supposed to pay it off. The entire system is based off debt. From the minute that bill is printed it's on loan to our government from central and international banks. Fiet currency also plays a major role. Fractional reserve banking literally takes 1 buck and makes it 10 at the local bank level, before that the 1 bill is already on loan from the international banks. It's complicated and to be honest I don't fully understand it. Economic collapse is inevitable unfortunately, watching Michael Rupert in Collapse kind of try' s to cover all this.

Blow me the fuck out if I am wrong but that's my understanding.

>Clinton trying to take credit for the reforms passed by the Republican congress.

I think this graph is a better representation of what's going on. I wouldn't say we're fucked, but we need to do something now before it gets too bad. However, in the short term, Trump's plan is going to increase our debt, the question is whether he can get the gdp gains necessary.

Yet all of our commodities come from the Middle East and china.. go fuck yourself

LOL AHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHHAHA

Retarded newt? The guy who was thrown out by his own party in disgrace in 1998?

You retards really are fucking morons.

You clearly don't know fucking shit

One of my professors once made an interesting comment that despite Reagan touting to be the most classical, most conservative republican on the block, he was actually one of the biggest Keynesian presidents.

Just some food for the thought.

time for the US to declare bankruptcy?

those arrows are clearly indicating when a president left office.

And as you clearly can see Obama fucked us all over.

I have no idea how you would pay that off but one way would be to get private organizations to give people good jobs and training instead forcing everyone into government positions.

National Socialism could do it possibly.

I think it might be impossible without making everyone poor for years.

Everything even private corporations are receiving government funding so it never really makes sense.

I mean it's almost like trying to make everyone rich.

Maybe force the (((banks))) to give people houses for very reduced cost and then raise taxes but since people won't have to pay mortgages, they could be taxed more.

I think that's the best way which kind of stems from National Socialism actually.

I already btfo your points. You have nothing.

I love destroying you

Remember when BASED NEWT GINGRICH left Nancy Pelosi and the DNC Congress a $230 billion budget surplus and a plan to wipe out the national debt within 10 years?
Then what happened?

Then Democrats happened.

>inb4 left wing dindu nuffins

> a fucking leaf

Almost every credible economist will tell you that some debt is good as it can be leveraged to pay for future economic growth, which in turn pays off the interest on that debt and then some

But I wouldn't expect retarded no deficit libertarians to get it

All empires fall and are forced to evolve.
Look at UK fags, owned like half the world and now they have a few feet to sleep on at night while some nigger fucks their wives.

He's right, too. The US government could press out that $20 Trillion Coin and pay the debt. It'd shit on the dollar, but that would solve it.

If Clinton had a surplus, then why did the debt continue to rise?

treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/search?startMonth=01&startDay=20&startYear=1993&endMonth=01&endDay=19&endYear=2000

REMEMBER THE TWO STILL ONGOING WARS THE NEXT PRESIDENT STARTED????

right wing retards believe this

what? you just strawmanned his points and you continue to strawman without even debating him at all.
the day of the rake can't come soon enough.

where's that >leaf guy when you need him

The country that owns the currency the whole world operates on can't bankrupt, fucktard.

Fucking google it.

Where did you get the impression I was right wing from my posts in this thread? I'm very, very hard left. Actual left, not ~social democrats~. Trump was def a broken clock on this issue.

No it wouldn't

The announcement would shock the economy, the debt would be consolidated, people would be pissed but also realize that if they are assholes to the US they will lose 100% of their investment, meanwhile creditors who play ball will (on paper) get a small % of the debt they are owed over time, which we could probably default on numerous times over without actually causing the financial and economic center of the world to change

The US economy wouldn't disappear, there would just be some new hand-wavy economic instruments to sell to other governments

People would lose confidence and in ten years it would be a blip on the radar

Wouldn't be the first time, either

most likely fucked, but we have a chance. The fed is at the end of its rope and the debt bomb is about ready to explode. Trump is basically a hail mary to get to the other side without collapse. If Clinton won we would have had another recession, but since the fed has no tools to inflate another bubble like it did last time, she would have sold the US to IMF and switch the worlds reserve currency to IMFbux. With Trump our main strategy has to be to put the energy sector into overdrive ASAP. If we can launch a trillion dollar oil/shale/coal industry we might actually fix this mess. Energy independence would unshackle us from the petrodollar and make paying down the debt actually feasible