vox.com
It is the most expensive subway ever built in terms of cost per mile.
Phase 2 of 2nd Ave Subway will be even more expensive than Phase 1 which just opened.
>2nd Ave Phase 1: $1.7 billion per km
>2nd Ave Phase 2: $2.2 billion per km
>Berlin U55: $250 million per km
>Paris Line 14: $230 million per km
>Copenhagen Circle Line: $260 million per km
I find it troubling that you judge the worth of a project by the tool used to facilitate work.
How much did the pyramids cost?
This is the sickness....
>How much did the pyramids cost?
Shabbos goy always supporting Jews as the underdog?
It's a problem when infrastructure projects cost 6.5 times more than the next most expensive project of the same kind cost.
what the fuck are you lining the tunnels with gold?
Fuck off nigger, you are the money loving jew and a total moron for not understanding what I meant.
What a fucking retard!
As someone who recently left this giant shit hole and moved south let me tell you this subway will look like it's 20 years old by the end of the year.
fuck of course it happens when I'm away. I'm shocked it ever got finished. Fucking thing will take 25 mins off my commute each way, don't have to walk to midtown to get train. I hope they don't fuck it up too badly with piss and shit and scum and niggerbefore I even get to ride it.
But nothing happens in a vacuum; that is your bias in seeing everything as a dialectic, not as a recursion.
You blame the system on the project, but the project happened in the system.
This dialectic thinking will kill us all. It is why you look at the project in terms of money, and not in terms of those things that cannot be monetized.
First, life is not reducible to a spreadsheet.
Second, life is not the pursuit of money.
You looked through the myopic glasses of the dialectic and missed the recursion that is sending you over the cliff.
>ining the tunnels with gold?
No, the Jew is lining his pocket with geld. It wasn't meant to be done until 2019 or something, they've been "working on it" for literally 20 years.
The union and construction companies bilk local governments and send back 20% to the politicians as a bribe.
This is the American way.
This is the reason a mile of freeway in the U.S. costs 3 times the same mile of freeway in Japan.
>bad copy paste tat doesn't fit thread. "look at me hombre, I beez smart!"
It costs a lot because of the union scum that runs the MTA and has their jew like claws all over NYC's balls because we have no alternative to commute with and they have striked before shutting down the entire city. They are about to hike the costs up again for a ride. They are utter fucking scum. I am not 100% against unions but they are unwilling to negotiate at all and would rather cripple the entire city than pay for their healthcare. Not to mention all the high pensions that they will never be able to afford in a couple of years. It's funny whenever the NY Post writes an article bashing the subways and buses you can always tell who the union scum is in the facebook comments because it's ALWAYS niggers talking about getting what is 'right" and "deserved". Speaking of niggers it seems like they run most of the trains and I swear to God the trains are running at their most inefficient ever these days and I bet it's due to them.
>It's a problem when infrastructure projects cost 6.5 times more than the next most expensive project of the same kind cost.
We desperately need infrastructure rehab all over the United States BUT WE CAN'T DO IT AT 6.5 TIMES THE COST!
Fuck, this is just corruption!
>literally identical to the 6
good god the MTA kikes are geniuses, probably the most useless line they've ever created.
doesn't help that libcucks are on their side and whine that the city is holding them back whenever they want to do something ridiculous
You're being difficult and obtuse on purpose.
This kind of over spending is indicative of corruption. The cost of labor and services is being over charged as well as materials. I bet contracts were either not made properly with time and cost constraints or they were not made at all.
Someone got 6.5 times richer by over extending this project putting future projects in jeopardy. I would expect this shit from China or Russia but at least in China they would have the decency to execute the criminals responsible for this egregious fraud.
Woah, hold up. You're saying that building a subway line inside the foundations of skyscrapers is somehow MORE EXPENSIVE than building it under some 2-3 story shops? Woah man. I mean, like, woah.
Sad!
NYC's subway tunnels and system is disgusting and old. I commute to a major tourist hub daily I hear Germans, Italians and Brits mocking how shit our train system is and they are right. We can't do shit to upgrade or innovate though because the unions fuck everything up. They started talking about new trains that don't have any dividers so you can simply walk from one end to the other. They estimate it could take 10 years to get this. We have a half completed tunnel to Staten Island why isn't that getting finished? Cost and the jobs it would put out for the ferry shitheads. Also there is no reason trains can be automated or at least have just one person running the train rather than 2 or more but they won't do this and innovate to preserve jobs. This is why people hate unions.
>unionized government construction work in nyc
you have no idea the magnitude of such a clusterfuck
Comparison with the Paris line. Along it's entire length it doesn't go near a building more than 4 stories high.
>We can't do shit to upgrade or innovate though because the unions fuck everything up.
In a vacuum this is NOT just a union problem. This is a wide-spread systemic problem. If you get rid of unions, you'd have workers with less rights and benefits and the same fucking over spending and shitty work.
>MAGA BRING BACK JOBS YAY TRUMP
>AUTOMATE JOBS FIRE PEOPLE
which one is it?
>I commute to a major tourist hub daily
oh, please don't ay what it is. If you say grand central or penn station, you might get doxxed. Only..what is it, 2 or 3 million people a day pass through there?
They're not spending that money on the subway. It's being laundered and funneled somewhere else.
>the same fucking over spending and shitty work.
The overspending comes from the union hacks and their unrealistic entitlements. Go to the Fresh Pond Road Queens Train stop. From there you can peer into a major MTA hub. Looking inside you will see pool tables, ping pong tables, bus/subway drivers playing cards or sleeping. They have strict rules about how many times a guy can drive a bus and when so many of those guys will just chill there for 3 hours getting paid until the union rules dictate when they can start. Fuck off with that shit you union hack they are the problem today.
You would be creating more jobs for the persons making that technology so yea. MAGA.
It's the train stop by Battery Park where you go to get boat rides to see the statue of liberty. I kept it out because I assumed no one gave a fuck but a triggered autistic Frenchman did I guess.
when it's played out through normal partisan politics it's just horseshit clientelism - only give the jobs to our people, the regions that support us, it's latin america-tier shit, it's poison
that's why i honestly don't mind either the ideological commies or the driverless car silicon valley ~disruptors~ because at least they have an overarching vision
Jobs need to change. Unfortunately Trump doesn't get that. Some jobs need to be automated and WILL be automated while new jobs with new tech and opportunities need to be created through innovation and progress.
It's a shame that Republicans are against "Green" tech even though it is a great opportunity to save money and energy and make businesses more efficient, which is better for profit. For example, green construction greatly reduces building operating costs from water, use, upkeep and energy.
We'll have to see what happens, just hopefully America won't get left behind.
there are jobs that should not exist in the modern era. trump wants to bring back jobs that do belong in the modern era, but are being outsourced elsewhere. has nothing to do with the MTA.
trains are run by a few people and they're all brainless old black people. there's no reason for more than one operator and in fact having multiple reduces the efficiency of the train.
i've had countless situations where the fucking ape gets mad that the door won't shut so he gets off the train to yell at someone and it delays everything by 20-30 minutes. why is train capacity still under manual moderation and why in such an unprofessional manner?
>The overspending comes from the union hacks and their unrealistic entitlements.
Bullshit. The cost of labor doesn't translate into Billions and Billions of over spending. You really think pool tables and idle time accounts for that? This is mafia like corruption. Someone is charging too much for materials and construction and "consultation" and planning, etc.
With your argument, the money just isn't there. Union workers aren't multi-millionaires but some contracting corporation is pulling hundreds of millions in profit and their top men paid just as egregiously.
Europe has unions and NONE OF THESE OVERSPENDING COSTS EXIST AS STATED IN OP. You just want to fuck over yourself and labor while not fixing the actual problem.
Yea sometimes they get on the mike and scream about holding doors. I had 2 occasions where two separate negresses got so mad they stopped the train and kicked everyone off and made the train "out of service".
Thats probably bigger than whole Moscow subway system yearly budget
Posting just the new Moscow subway stations opened/finished recently. Not as fancy as old ones which are Palace/Museum tier but still nice.
>The cost of labor doesn't translate into Billions and Billions of over spending. You really think pool tables and idle time accounts for that?
That was one example but the reality is the MTA worker pays very little to nothing for health care, gets way more time off than anyone else, overly generous overtime that they abuse much like NYPD cops abuse as well (also unionized) and an unrealistic pension and other retirement benefits that the entire city of NY has to prop up for a couple hundred people. Most unethical is that anytime a mayor negotiates contracts they never want to give up anything to the extent where they shut the entire city down and make life miserable for ~8.4 million people so fuck off unions are absolute dog shit including whatever Joe Schmo carpenters union or whatever dog shit you are part of.
shit russia why is your underworld so much better then your überworld
Trains should be fully automated for convenience and safety.
You can't in NYC there are too many niggers propping up doors and shit for their boys and retards getting their purses caught in the closing doors. You need somewhat of a human element watching but that means we really need 1 person currently every train has at least 2.
Because when Nuclear War happens, we are supposed to hide there and live until Nuclear Winter is over.
The things you see in Metro 2033 games are real, the stations designed as shelters - with bunker doors, filtration systems, other stuff built underground beside stations themselves, secret subway lines etc.
So you admit your personal poor opinion of unions has nothing to do with the lengthy construction and overspending.
I'd take a union over Chinese style labor anytime.
wow I can't wait to take 2 blocks off my commute. at that price it's a steal
>You can't in NYC there are too many niggers propping up doors and shit for their boys and retards getting their purses caught in the closing doors.
Then you need security guards, not train conductors. Some uppity, ignorant fat black bitch isn't helping that situation and her job isn't needed.
I live on 76th street.
I can tell you the 6 train is a heaping pile of fucking shit so I wanted this to happen, but the MTA is a huge waste of money. Really wish the chinks or Europeans would start investing in our subway system because it's evident Americans are too fat and fucking retarded to run a subway system.
>he thinks the subway travels _under_ the buildings
How retarded are you?
Ex communist countries always have legit fucking subway systems. North Korea has really impressive subways too
It is good to have traffic locations where litterally millions of people travel daily presentable.
The issue with some others are they are privately owned, while Russian ones are goverment owned and dont actually make money - instead being financed to maintain and expand them, as well operating in negative since having affordable transport for millions of people is more important than it makning profit.
>overspending.
I just showed you where the overspending comes from. Also like a typical retarded dumb union guy you think there are two extremes only, unionized unrealistic entitlements or Chinese slave camps. See this is why unions exist today to give dumb retards like you more money then you deserve. Deep down inside you know without them you aren't talented enough to compete in the free market.
Sorry, I had to eat lunch.
Yes. Overspending comes from corruption. But corruption comes in many forms and very little is planned.
Corruption comes from incompetence, and incompetence is bake into the system when you pursue profit over product.
This is what you don't understand by looking at the dialectic: if you pursue profit in all of your decisions, then your labor and your customer become avenues to exploit for monetary gain, at the cost of long term efficiencies in resource management and economies of scale.
This is the trade off of profit seeking, and is the corruption of the collision between the agreed upon purpose of making a product, with the tacitly agreed agreement for profit.
Production is not linear; seeking profit destroys efficiency.
Unless you are going to accept a socialist construction of public works with no outsourcing, you are going get an ever more costly system.
don't worry they've added even more mta staff in the last couple months to wave flashlights at people doing this
even more of a waste
>North Korea has really impressive subways too
No they don't. They are extremely dated, unreliable and don't have any of the latest technology. The subway systems in Pyongyang are more for "show" and that isn't saying much.
>2nd Ave Phase 1: $1.7 billion per km
>2nd Ave Phase 2: $2.2 billion per km
That's because we have money, leaf. We can build stuff that isn't shit.
Also, we don't build anything here by the "/km" - we build by the mile. It's more expensive, but it's worth it not to have to use the stupid fucking metric system.
>I just showed you where the overspending comes from
But you didn't. The numbers don't add up. Union workers aren't multi-millionaires and billions are being spent. You act like some union worker is making more than the most over-paid plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills.
Even though my country would be the ones sending the nukes let me say honestly it really is a good idea
At least your government actually cares about it's citizens. Ours will just let us die, it's why you see such a crazy anti-nuclear sediment here because subconsciously every American knows they will die (besides the preppers with bombshelters that is).
Did you know a long time ago the MTA police merged with the NYPD so the NYPD controls train security mostly but there are a few guys who still have their title as "MTA officer" and they just ride the trains all day doing nothing, stopping no crimes and keep doing this only cause they found a loophole to grandfather their way into this. They too get full benefits and a pension. But yea unions are great and not wasteful.
>Really wish the chinks or Europeans would start investing in our subway system
SNCF, the French rail monopoly, told California that it could build California High Speed Rail very cheaply and with private financing, leaving the state on hook for just the cost of purchasing the land the new railway would sit on. In return, SNCF and the private investors would get to run it for 30 years and keep the profits if any.
marketurbanism.com
California immediately dismissed it as unrealistic (without any engineering consultation) and told SNCF to fuck off.
I did. The MTA union workers get unrealistic benefits no one else in NYCS sees. Due to this they constantly operate at a deficit and constantly raise fares burdening people who barely can afford it already. I like how you ignored the corruption examples here is another one. When Uber first came here they exploded and the MTA unions tried to flex government muscle to get them banned and almost succeeded but public outcry stopped that. These fucks are anti progress money pits and I can't wait till car automation is a thing because it's likely the only thing that can stop them.
>Unless you are going to accept a socialist construction of public works with no outsourcing, you are going get an ever more costly system.
I don't have to do that. In my state/city construction projects and spending is transparent and posted online with community oversight. Contracts are made with penalties for over spending and over-time projects and bonuses are given for projects done under budget or under time.
We can do it, why the fuck can't New York?
>We can build stuff that isn't shit.
This is a brand spanking new station, and it looks like a prison with shitty concrete floors.
Even Toronto, which has shit-tier subway, has better stations than this.
>we live in a free market
We can't compete in a freemarket? We don't even live in a free market! Idiot.
>The MTA union workers get unrealistic benefits no one else in NYCS sees.
So you're jealous or something. This has nothing to do with the over spending on CONSTRUCTION of the 2nd Ave Subway.
>Brand new subway costing billions
It's already vandalised to shit and over capacity, isn't it?
As for you..
This is the myth the profiteers want you to believe.
You are arguing relativity. Again with the dialectic. You only see a fat union worker and a costly system. You don't see the recursion that led to that point or how it makes you falsely see fat union workers while missing the gargantuanly fat profiteers.
Someone made money on the bond. Someone made money on the equipment. Someone made money on the lawyers, Someone made money on the choice of suppliers.
All of these decisions don't make it on to your spreadsheet. You only see a well paid worker, and a large cost, and falsely equate the two, but don't bother to compare what a self contained system would produce.
You could pay every worker twice as much and cut the total cost in half if it weren't for the way things were managed to eek out a profit for all the vulture along the way that never moved a rock on that project.
... and like a lazy pathetic slug yourself, you just blame the worker who had no choice in how to do their job....
But keep on shilling for the jew....
>When Uber first came here they exploded and the MTA unions tried to flex government muscle to get them banned and almost succeeded but public outcry stopped that. These fucks are anti progress money pits and I can't wait till car automation is a thing because it's likely the only thing that can stop them.
while I disagree with stopping service companies like Uber, that has little to do with the need for a functioning subway system.
It's impossible for New York to function with cars alone no matter who is driving.
The union _and_ the construction cartel are both making the project costs surge.
Yes it does because thats where the budget explodes. Because all the money they waste on overtime and waste due to union rules on how many hours people work and how they work. Waste because anytime they need contractors union heads will just call their buddy Salvatore's shop and have him overcharge everything because lol who cares the idiots in NYC will pay anything. You retards are literally leeches and it's all fun and games now but when we get to the point where people can't afford this shit anymore and you hurt the average Joe with this bullshit you will see how fast public union support declines. Here in NYC it won't be long with these bi yearly fare raises in a city that already has one of the most highest costs of living.
>that fucking expensive tunnel
>that fucking military spending
>F-35
america gets jewed.com on daylie basis
>Don't worry about how much it costs you, just worry about what you get!
I addressed this in my last post, Union heads like this winner here:
nypost.com
Will purposely hire their buddies for outside work and let them charge whatever because they don't give a fuck instead of giving it to the most efficient worker. This historically is always what happens when it's not your own money on the line. I worked a government job years ago, we had a yearly budget, at the end of the year if we were under budget my boss would order me to buy things I don't need so we don't get our budget cut. That was a union gig too. Don't give me this bullshit.
So how long is the wait list to be interview for the mta cop position?
The topic is union waste and I brought this up to show how corrupt unions are and how much they stifle innovation so they can overpay people for obsolete jobs.
How is transparency helping you? Be honest. Have you crunched the numbers?
I did. This is what I do for a living.
In my community a local ongoing school project showed they spent the average cost per student. Transparent records of this cost were available.
So I recrunched the numbers, and found two huge things.
1. inflated student enrollment, that didn't show up on the record.
and 2. (this part is hard to understand) a LACK of savings due to the size of the project and a missing economy of scale.
They compared their costs to smaller cities with fewer resources available so they didn't have to outsource.
When I recrunced the numbers using this data, I found that they overspent 218% spending $35M for what could be projected to be produced for $11.
Is this being done anywhere? No. Because the entire system is set up to be like this.
Now if the project allowed no outsourcing, and the decisions management made were transparent, then what you said would be true.
Socialism does not imply obfuscation. It implies not having to grease someones profit stinking hand to do what is best for all.
Sounds like you get all your NYC knowledge from '70s movies. Manhattan is basically a gentrified Disneyland now.
>Yes it does because thats where the budget explodes.
But we're talking about construction costs. Read the Op. This isn't a discussion about OPERATING COSTS.
Different argument, different thread. Take your non sequitur, anti-union argument and shove it up your ass,
He was talking about the subways and he is right the majority of them are utter disgusting shit.
Not to mention they are drilling through the solid bedrock Manhattan is made of.
So the Union is to blame how? They are told that their labor is part of the marketplace while they look at a rigged marketplace and wonder why they can't get a living wage.
Besides you beg the question. Go somewhere where there are no Unions and try to earn enough to eat. The profiteering is still going on, but where is the outrage against the ones who don't even do any work?
..very sad.
Stop blaming Unions. If we were more socialist, you could double the wages and still get the projects done for less..
>The topic is union waste
No, the topic is construction over spending. Unions may be in some part aggravating costs, but you're full of shit if you think union busting is going to solve the cost of construction.
Again, Europe has unions and doesn't have these overspending construction problems.
>taking the cost of something into account is the same as valuing the cost over the value of the product
nobody would give a shit that this thing was so expensive if it was somehow an obvious accomplishment, people are pissed that it is both hilariously expensive AND shit
I'm sorry you dishonest union scumbag you can't ignore union overspending and corruption when talking about a project unions oversee and I keep bringing up reasons why this project goes over budget due to union corruption and you, being the brainless union retard you are either ignore them or are unable to read up to high school level.
>How is transparency helping you? Be honest. Have you crunched the numbers?
I just said it did. Can you not fucking read?
>can't get a living wage
They get a living wage. They want more than that and know they can get it by extorting an entire city at gunpoint. That's the problem.
There you go union dumb fuck you cut off the rest of my statement that addressed your bullshit. God you union people really are brainless retards.
>extorting
That does not mean what you think it means.
>I keep bringing up reasons why this project goes over budget due to union corruption and you, being the brainless union retard you are either ignore them or are unable to read up to high school level.
But the unions and the workers aren't seeing the vast majority of the money. You act like the union workers are millionaires for pouring concrete. They aren't.
Can YOU fucking read you lying piss ant pathetic piece of shit?
You didn't crunch shit! You are a fucking moron who can't balance his/her/its checkbook!
You think the numbers posted on that lie of a financial report given by the lying auditors are real?
I just told you why they weren't!
>That does not mean what you think it means.
ex·tort
ikˈstôrt/
verb
gerund or present participle: extorting
obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means.
You have blinders on. I want everyone held accountable, just union busting WON'T SOLVE THIS FUCKING PROBLEM.
Until you start addressing the shit in my post I am not replying to your dishonest bullshit retarded union worker. I already addressed this nor did I imply any of the shit you said. Address my posts.
>You think the numbers posted on that lie of a financial report given by the lying auditors are real?
It's a huge conspiracy right? You've crunched all the numbers in my county and totally know what you're talking about.
If you have a problem with your community, then get a lawyer or run for office. We don't have your problem here.
The fact that you have been ignoring every point I made about union corruption shows that deep down inside you agree with me but you also know that you are so unskilled you would be nowhere without your union.
>Until you start addressing the shit in my post I am not replying to your dishonest bullshit retarded union worker.
If you get rid of unions, these problems still persist. I'm against corruption and over spending, you're just mindlessly anti-union blatantly ignoring reality. You just have an agenda.
Follow the money. The money isn't being siphoned off to "the union".
>If you get rid of unions, these problems still persist
Absolutely not because now we introduce competition in the market and hire the best workers.
>They started talking about new trains that don't have any dividers so you can simply walk from one end to the other
All new subway trains have that m8
Trashed in 1-4 months by homeless. All the fancy gadgets will be abused by homeless people. Digits will confirm
Where did I say "The money isn't being siphoned off to "the union"." quote me.
Hudson yards is coming nicely. I was in NY the other day, place is beautiful so far
Also why are there so many pointless billion dollar projects popping up across the city
The dividers where you seamlessly walk through train cars without having to open a door and go outside.
What you clearly cannot understand is that accounting for something is not the same as doing it cheaper.
In typical Magical Thinking Economics fashion, you have assumed that simply by looking at numbers that things get cheaper.
But you miss the forest for the trees, and the growth of the forest from a few seeds for a spreadsheet of trees.
Only by doing things differently can they be done with fewer resources.
Only by having a system that compares the labor content of work can you apply a proxy like capital and expect it to reflect anything.
Only by judging actions by their benefit, and not by how much cash it gets you, will you be able to asses progress.
...Jesus. You are so stuck in your dialectic of capitalism, you are now working for the god Money....
>Absolutely not because now we introduce competition in the market and hire the best workers.
No, the corrupt key players that make the construction work lengthy and costly would now be able to pay the workers less while charging the same amount or more because power and influence has been redistributed.
This isn't union problem, you shill.
dude, the workers aren't making this project expensive. deep-tunneling and xboxhueg stations are the reason this thing cost so much.
Yes, I don't get what you're trying to point out. Most new subway trains are walkthrough like that