If somebody told me:
>Here are the wood planks, those are the tools; make me a shed and I'll pay you X amount of money
How am I being exploited? I don't own the planks and I don't own the tools, I'm just being paid to make the house and the same could be said for every worker.
what is lean left economically?
Pretty sure it means pay no taxes... collect welfare
Where is this magic winter wonderland
If you're being paid a livable income then it's not exploitation.
Every dollar is a worthless fiat interest payments. Mortgage means "death pledge" and derivatives outpace the entire global GDP by thousands of folds. What you do is you pay me $5/hour to make 100 $5 sandwiches in an hour. Sucked daddy's tits. Did blow with the bank manager. Now you have to buy 12 cent cucumbers for your lemonade stand and you cry about it for 6000 years. We pay tax. You offshore. You buy your own police force
Switzerland
>Newfag can't reverse image search
Not going to pay someone a livable wage for menial brainless work. You are paid on the value of your productivity.
Leftists can't into merit.
Time is money. Productivity goes through the roof. Pay goes down. You morons do oil changes by pouring it on the hood. You buy everything first and leave everybody else to buy yodelling pickles for $87
if I willingly choose to be exploited how is it your problem to remedy the situation
He has to do it to eat. The guy he does it for never had to ask for his silver spoon either he just had it
Whether or not I am being exploited depends on whether my survival is dependent on that job and how much you pay me for it. If I don't need the job I can tell you to fuck off if you don't pay me a sufficient wage. If I ask for too much you can tell be to fuck off and build the shed yourself. In this case, we can barter to a wage we can both agree on and no one is exploited. The problem comes in when the only source of payment is building your shed and there are multiple people available to do it. This puts the shed builders in completion with each other which you can than exploit. This is why business has always pushed for immigration so that there is always a surplus of workers to jobs.
well in a capitalistic society you can choose not to build that
in a communist society if you choose not to build that the government shoots you or sends you off to a gulag
The best part about America is the opportunity. You can make something from nothing, but you have to take the personal responsibility and put in the effort to do it. I know people in Nigeria who hustle for a few dollars a day, but they're doing it. They open their own micro business and work themselves up. You are essentially arguing for entitlement.
>cannabinoids are present in all breastmilk
>get shot or go to prison
What aren't they shooting you for these days
If you're too stupid or unable to survive in the current job climate it's up to you to change something to be able to compete, not me pay for your inability. You're literally being rewarded for being a loser/failure.
Nobody wants your fiat money. I dont have credit cards for a reason. Every dollar is a visa now! The number one indicator of success is that of your same sex parent. End of discussion. You need to be asleep to believe in that dream and i find more worth in other occupations and in the poor. Not fatty mcfatbergs
you're assuming that the employer is a multi-billionaire and the employee is a homeless bum
>leaf
not replying anymore
that has nothing to do with keynesianism. Maybe learn the lefts fiscal/monetary policy before you go against it.
>yodelling pickles
Where buy ?
You assumed. I guess the boss is poor and the workers are rich. Day of the grill when. If you have more than 70K a year it does nothing for happiness. Half of your individuals make less than 30K. The other half more. What a nice society
Moving the goalpost. Your argument was for livable wage and now you swap to some tangent about fiat currency and credit cards...
Address my point or concede you're simply out for entitlement, a handout.
Nope. I never said anything like that. I reiterated my very first post which also got fuck all for replies. Bye bye babylon enjoy your lucky strikes
I lean left and I don't get what you're trying to get out of us.
What's wrong with giving a man a job?
Market price is supposed to determine fair wage
But - market price is only determined by people with $
Results in economically tiered groups
Well sorry for assuming I could have an actual political discussion on Sup Forums. I forgot for a moment that it was full of cancer like yourself.
Nobody knows wtf youre talking about
See:
No one knows what you're talking about you daft prick.
>market price is only determined by people with $
what is supply and demand and competition
The true value in the economy comes from labour, not from capital, and you won't convince me otherwise
good to know you are rational person who will listen to arguments
>market price is only determined by people with $
Do you mean all consumers?
So you accept its exploitation
but if you create capital from labour shouldnt you be able to benefit from that?
Economist fantasies
No im good and fuck you, Birdo
The Utopian has arrived.
>get offered a cuck wage and still need welfare to provide for family eg walmart
>can't refuse work because there are no other jobs available and will starve otherwise
how am i not being exploited? jobs are literally meaningless when the rich make their money off interest in the stock market or in other words, NOT WORKING
why should 99% of the population subject to wagecuck to death for the 1% who reap a disproportionate amount of the wealth and perpetuating further income inequality to what amounts to slavery?
No hes right.
Even capitalists believe true valur comes from labour, after all they buy it with capital!
>Even capitalists believe true valur comes from labour
>Even capitalists
>capitalists
>capitalist
>capital
>ist
To a capitalist, the value is in the capital, the labour is the necessary cost to produce the capital. The capitalist strives to gain more capital, so he devalues the cost (labor) to do so. Are you shit testing me?
no value of goods comes from people buying them, i can pay 10billion in labor for creating a useless thing and it has no value
very smart and insightful refutation, i can tell you are very smart
capital is only as useful as to the quantity and quality of labor it can afford you
you can have a million dollars, but if minimum wage is a million dollars an hour you can only afford one hour of some moron's time
>something has value only if you buy or sell it
Top kek
>capital can only purchase labor
I just said explained capitalist motivation to lower cost to produce. Labor is the primary cost to produce capital. Labor is not the value of capital. I've never heard such a thing before. It's absurd.
what he says is mostly true, you might have a different meaning of the word value, but generally when deciding on the value (read: price) of something, it's what someone is willing to pay for it
thats fucking retarded argument, similar to saying: when you have 10bucks u can only buy 1 hr of some ones time. the fact is minimum wage is more or less set at market equilbrium rate.
>what is paper money or gold, shiny pebbles
Oh look another Soviet memberry
this.
It means they do not understand economics.
im sure your grandmas letter is more valuable to you than to anybody else, but if it has no economic value , nobody will be willing to fork over shekels to buy it. Therefore when you are looking at it from the side of society or economics, your grandma's letter is a useless piece of paper.
what said
Friendly reminder that Karl Marx was a smelly delusional bum who never had a job in his entire life.
But you created it with someone else's labour so to take an inappropriate amount without properly paying your workers is immoral (something you neoliberals want to leave out of economics)
whatever minimum wage is doesn't matter, it was just an example
money (capital) is only useful for purchasing goods (produced using someone's time) and labor (someone's time)
Of course a good capitalist should aim to reduce costs, that will allow him to accumulate greater profits and in return, exchange his capital for an even greater amount of labor.
Yea look at all those capitalists investing in currency lool
Youve missed the forest for the trees. The price on the market is an indicator of value on the market. ON THE MARKET
And that "devalued labour" is your friends, neighbours and countrymen, and you wanna live it up like the worst caricature of a capitalist while they live in the deepest poverty, in your ideal society
well yes, that was implied
things are bought and sold on the market, that's where transactions occur
>40 people want a job to build my shed
>I offer $10 instead of $20 per hour
>only 7 people want to do it
>Pick the best from the 7.
If you want an important wage, learn important skills.
Exactly, so in a capitalist society it puts the onus on the individual laborer to learn skills of value. This is why entitlement is wrong. It is backward and reduces the quality of the labor market by telling them it is OK if you choose not to better yourself, we will step in and take care of you. Entitlement encourages lower quality labor markets.
Muh morals
See:
...
>filthy plebs, let them eat cake, hahaha!
>14-hour workday when?
You need manual labourers in an economy, so they should receive a wage that is decent enough to support a family with and have some savings.
What decides what an inappropriate amount is?
I want to build a shed, but I do not have the skills to do so. I can buy the supplies to do so. You come along and say you can build it for me. I say, great! I am willing to pay you 30 dollars for your day's work. However, your definition of a "liveable wage" is 50 dollars for a day's work so you refuse and try to haggle with me. I refuse and shrug my shoulders, and go elsewhere to find someone to build the shed for me.
One of two things happens: Either I find someone else who will build the shed for me for 50 dollars, or I realize I am a greedy kike and no one is willing to put out the labor for the amount I have set. If the latter is the case, then I could come back to you and raise my price to meet your desired wage, after which you could fuck me in the ass and demand 60 dollars instead of 50, since you know realize that supply for the labor is low.
What is the problem here?
>livable income
Define that. You can't. No one can. It's subjective liberal garbage.
>economic value
You mean price. Dont confuse the two.
A stat at home mother taking care of kids in a 1st world country is estimated to be worth 100k a year in "economic benefit", but no one gets the value, well except the kids lool
You expect someone to work for slave wages, is your problem, and you openly admit you'd want to expand the labour pool so you can exploit the workers
I don't think you understand the concept of laborer exploitation if you think that leftists are opposed to this situation. I'm not even anti-capitalist and even I understand there are way more variables at play in a wage-paid full-time job than getting paid to do a favor for a friend.
That image has nothing to do with anything. You think that disproving certain individuals who have different beliefs in the market (whom I also do not agree with) does not magically make your flawed ideology any better.
Construction workers earn a decent enough wage to support a family and save, so long as they don't let their vices pull them down.
I'm sorry but if you think we need walmart and mcdonalds to function as a society, I completely disagree.
someone spiked the syrup
A reasonable man would save enough money through this type of labor to buy his own planks, own tools and build his own shed. Then sell it, repeat until they cannot make sheds fast enough to sell and hire laborers to make sheds, exponentially increasing profits until the shed market is super saturated, which they might move on to building cabins, small houses, detached garages, or furniture.
Need the money to change hands -
Supply/demand starts the negotiation
Competition brings price down
On the contrary, you seem to be the one who wants walmarts and mcdonalds so you can outsource your production and abuse supply chains to undercut small local businesses
But why is it a problem if I ask someone to do something for a set amount and they say yes? I am not forcing them to do so. If it's a menial task that anyone can do, then the supply of labor is going to be high therefore the cost of that labor is going to be low. If I wanted to, say, install electrical wiring in that shed then I would have to pay more, because the supply for that labor would surely be lower than someone just hammering away at some nails. If everyone decided to never get into construction, then the supply of labor for construction would go down, and I would be forced to pay more for labor.
Well thats fine if you want to confine it to marketable "value". But prices are just prices.
By your logic there would no such thing as overpriced
>a wage that is decent enough to support a family with and have some savings
Why?
If he does not have children and the labor pool decreases over time, the wages will naturally rise and equilibrium can be obtained.
and her when she divorces the husband
or her when she gets to live off her husband's dole
also i am not cofusing value and price. Value is what you think something is worth. Price is a factor of supply and demand that determines how in demand the commodity is., I value alcohol much more than it's price, so i became an alcoholic, cheers.
Now that, is a /comfy/ picture!
My thought was that ultimately a market gets corrupted by people awash in money and willing to outbid the lower masses
No, I certainly do not. I am not an anarcho-capitalist. I was describing the fundamental concepts of capitalism. Capitalism requires control that unfairly exploits workers. Paying a low wage is not exploitation if the labor market will take the jobs. If the individual who takes this job requires more capital to support their family, then they must improve their skillset to earn that capital. Not every family is the same and not every worker is the same, but everyone in America has opportunity to better themselves, if they'd put in the effort to do it.
It is capitalism
Ah, sorry for the confusion, I didn't make a differentiation between value and price. My mistake.
So you agree price and value are different, and price does not necessarily reflect value?
All of this gets invalidated by a $0.50 7.62 boat tail hollow point round.
Second amendment was made to snipe elite cucks in the melon.
>if you cannot survive then change something
That would make sense 100 years ago. But every square inch of land is claimed and/or owned by someone or something. People cannot sell their labor within this system that says "you cannot work outside of it", and automation will only make it worse. The capitalist/libertarian response is "not my problem", meanwhile their house is burning.
I'm neither Red team or Blue team politically, but it's yet another example that conservative people are extremely uneducated.
absolutely, value is something inherent in each person differently
What if I do it all myself. I make the tools, I build the shed, I want to sell it. Is that money mine? Or do I have to give some to some lazy pos.
Because duping idiots into working for slave wages should be against labour laws in any just society
Because the idea is that workers should be fairly compensated for their work, so long as the business can bear the expense (even if it cuts into profits)
Yes, it is exploitation, but capitalism tries to sideline the moral element of economics, so according to capitalists there is no such thing as exploitation as long as someone agrees to it
depends on the wage being paid. A shed has more value than planks and some tools though, and I personally wouldn't spend all my life building sheds for 400 dinars a month.
Qed
I started with nothing but a widowed alcoholic mother and a public education. I put in time at the local library when I got off of work. I saved up and bought a computer, searched high and low for books on IT, trained myself to the point where I could get an entry level IT job, and 12 years later I now earn a little over 100k and am able to support my own family.
It's a slap in my face every time I hear people complaining that they are so downtrodden in America. This is the greatest nation on the planet and nowhere can you find more opportunity and freedom to pursue it than this nation.
10 dollars an hour for 14 hours is great.
You'll obviously want to get a good price for it, so you won't let yourself be exploited. But it might be a problem if other people exploit their workers, which would lower the cost of sheds and make you take a hit to compete
Is this the town ff7 snowboarding town is based off of?
wtf is that? whoville? you fuckin fag
Leftists are usually from well off (((families))) that never had to really work. When they hear someone had a "long, rough day", they don't understand anything other than some fat, white suited man cracking a whip that the person MUST do it otherwise they'll starve to death or be homeless.
The other side of the leftist coin are really stupid people who can't do anything other than really dumb jobs. They can't really negotiate or have a drive (read: lazy) so they never climb.
>Because the idea is that workers should be fairly compensated for their work
The idea is that "fair" is a vague term.
Your aim destroys businesses with smaller margins, and as a result, increase unemployment and decrease opportunity.