Did Jesus claim to be be God?

No he did not, because there is not a single vocal statement in the bible where Jesus says that he is God, or where he says worship me...Jesus is not God, however he is a mighty messenger from God.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=B0IZlXHSIhQ
youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

youtube.com/watch?v=B0IZlXHSIhQ

>Ahmed Deedat

Enough with this shitty bait Australia

D U B S

U

B

S

That is why we call him the Son.

"follow me, and you shall be fishers of men"

I agree

No, not even a messenger. He is a 2000-year-old lefty faggot.

>because there is not a single vocal statement in the bible where Jesus says that he is God
Nor is there a single statement that claims to be from Jesus.
It's all "visions from"

He claimed to be God many times. The fact you say this means you've never read the Gospels.

At least read the Bible before commenting on it.

this means trusting a jew, a rookie mistake

He claimed to be God multiple times, which is why the Jews killed him.

On top of that there are tons of other verse where others say he's God

You amerikikes are really a nasty bunch of little faggots arent you...

Go put some more cotton on your mulitlated dick, proselyte

What if Jesus shows up tomorrow for Trump inauguration.


many bricks will be shat.

Maybe we are, but at least I was educated well enough not to mistake fantasy for reality.

stop posting your stupid muslim shit

this makes like the 30th thread ive seen by you in the past few days

>Exodus 3:14 God said, “I am who I am. You must tell them: ‘The one who is called I Am has sent me to you.’

>John 8:57-58

57 They said to him, “You are not even fifty years old—and you have seen Abraham?”[a]

58 “I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.”

>He claimed to be God many times.
>He claimed to be God multiple times

...?

see Btw, Muhammad was influenced by Christian heretics in the desert as confirmed by the Birmingham Quran and details of Arian heretics meeting with him. We also don't criticize people for their 30th ancestor being a whore...

I bet you cannot refute deedat

Citation needed

Jesus used "I am" because he was God? Jesus never claimed to be God at all.

"...For the Father is Greater than I." John 14:28

"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all." John 10:29

"By myself I can do nothing..." John 5:30

"...These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:24

"For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken." John 12:49

"I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:50

You again?!? Have you read this already? And you're still making this thread?

Very vague
Reaching for straws
Also
Hebrew/Aramaic/Latin/German

Please tell me you understand things can be lost in translation or misinterpreted even between German and English.

Come with clear verses not some devinci code bullshit

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am.” (Mark 14:62)

The [Samaritan] woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all thing.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.” (John 4:25)

Only the true Messiah denies His divinity (Brian)

“I and the Father are one."
John 10:30

“I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”
John 8:58

“The Word [Jesus] was God”
“the Word became flesh”
John 1

Cmon I'm athiest and even I know that Jesus said he was God

John 14:24 sounds like something a profit would say.
Or a person with multiple personalities.
I will not accept the later of a mighty profit.

>John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, you should at least believe my deeds, in order that you may know once and for all that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father.”

This simply means you have no faith.

Ah, these threads always bring out the ancient language experts that don't read or speak said languages, therefore anything that does not confirm their personal opinions is not valid.

I have no time nor patience for you tonight, God bless you.

This is the second or third thread like this tonight. Different flag. I'm not sure if it's spam or not. Granting the premise, what the hell does that change?

Matthew 27:46

>My God, my God, why hast though forsaken me?

Could be an argument against Jesus being God.

Yes, and I'm proud of that fact. Jesus was the son of God in exactly the same sense that I am the son of God, no more, no less.

>profit

???

The faith of the Orthodox Church is that Jesus Christ is fully human, that He is a real man. But we believe as well that Jesus is not a “mere man,” but that He is the eternal, divine Son of God.

By this we mean that from all eternity, before the creation of everything that exists, God Himself existed without beginning, in a manner incomprehensible to men, completely outside the bounds of time and space. In this perfection of divine existence, God the Father always had with Himself His divine Son and His Holy Spirit. Both the Son and the Spirit are exactly what God the Father is, namely perfect, unchanging, every-existing, timeless, spaceless, beyond human comprehension, etc. In a word, whatever can be said or understood about God the Father can be said and understood about the Son (also called the Word, Logos, Wisdom, and Image of God) and the Holy Spirit.

Thus there are Three who are divine, each being what the other is and each being in perfect union and unity with the other. These are the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit: the Holy Trinity.

Now we believe that it is the eternally divine and perfect Son of God who was born as a man from the Virgin Mary and lived on the earth as Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah (Christ) of Israel and the Savior of the world.

Thus it is the Orthodox faith that Jesus is fully human and fully divine; the Son of God and the Son of Man, one and the same Son.

As the unique divine-human person, Jesus saves the world by teaching the absolute truth of God; by forgiving the evils of all men and the whole world; by suffering and dying in innocence, voluntarily and unjustly on the cross in order to be with all who suffer and die; by rising from the dead in a new and glorified form; by taking our humanity to God in order to make it divine forever; and by sending the Holy Spirit of God to men who believe so that they could teach and do the very things which Jesus Himself both taught and did.

>John 10:30
You should read the whole passage, i.e.

"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all..." 10:29

You do not have to be an expert to realize things get lost in translation

Especially considering the 10s of sects after the "crucifixion"
The fact that some of the "deciples" never met the man
And the gospels where written decades after the events.
So yes please tell me everything from first grade in detail and I will fallow it as truth but only after
You translate it 5x and let others edit your work to fit their narrative

Jesus was just a man
Mohammad was just a man
There are no gods

Any supernatural claims that defy the laws of nature and physical reality, said by these people or their supporters or critics are invalid

What makes him the son of God?
Is he the only one?

Why do christians believe that the rest of us must accept quotes from their fantasy novel as proof of anything?

Yeah
youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U

that doesn't change the point. he is defining who his father is in 10:29 (greater than all, AKA God) and saying that he and his father are one in 10:30.

Orthoshill LARPer

Convert to Catholicism or die in sin

I wish jesus and god were real.. this life man.. we die and then nothing happen. completly meaningless man.. if god is real i would sacrifice my only life to worship him and be under his command. but he is fairy tales

Juan Pedro por favor
I am an Orthodox Christian and a sinner. I converted from Roman Catholicism after reading the Church Fathers and Church history. Roman Catholicism is an innovation with many heresies central to it.

The whole context shows that there is a difference between GOD and Jesus (the father and the son), and the whole context would mean that GOD and jesus are the same as far as the walk in Faith is concerned, and it does not mean that they are one and the same. So This does not present any proof that Jesus was GOD.

The Greek word being translated as "one" (hen), at both John 10:30 and John 17:21, 22 etc. is neuter, literally "one (thing)," and is used to indicate oneness in cooperation. I.e. in purpose they are one.

they are

Worship is to be directed to God alone and worship is properly directed toward Jesus Christ in the New Testament. It follows that Christ is God. I destroyed your dumb arguments 5 or so hours ago already. Go away. sage

See the various quotes in this thread. However, Christ fulfilled the prophesies of the OT prophets and Psalms, as He is God. Christ is the Word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 King James Version (KJV)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

but jesus i already know how to pick up dudes. you drop the worm into its mouth.

Once again, bullshit quotes from a bullshit book prove nothing. Why do christians have such a hard time understanding this simple logical principle?

God does exist, and his nature was revealed to us in the life and teaching of Christ.

You think you need "proofs" that God is real in order to act accordingly. But imagine if you have it backward; suppose God lets you decide if you want him to exist. If you want a godless universe, then live and believe as if it is true and reap the reward of eternal nothingness and separation from the creator of the universe. But if you want God to be real, if you want Christ to be Lord over the earth, then live your life as if it were true. Show yourself to be worthy to be called his disciple. He does not desire brainless followers, he wants followers after his own heart. And what is in your heart is more vital to him than the knowledge you may think you want. Followers after his own heart will put hope and faith and action into their love for him, and the perfection that he is. These people will call out to God as their Father, and he will love them, bless them, and save them from destruction.

Read the gospel.

>I have no conceptual understanding of ancient Hebrew, ancient Judaism or Christianity at all.
>I am unable to understand these blatant the statements, because I am either willfully ignorant or actually stupid.
>but you're still wrong.

Go to bed muzzie

so you are telling me the best proof that god is jesus is an inference?

Jesus taught for people to follow in his footsteps to come closer to God. He REPEATEDLY insists that your worship should go towards the Father, not him. There is One God. And Jesus was a righteous preacher.

Christcucks don't even understand their own fucking religion. ffs

hes either a liar, a lunatic, or the lord. theres no other option

i'm orthodox. Jesus said it many times in gospel. Just he didnt shout it on every corner. just read attentively. Jesus said "I'am and the Father is one" (Jesus is God himself) "Father gave everything to hand of Son" (Jesus have all might and power of God) and many other same things, showing that Jesus is God himself. Just God showed himself in flesh and blood to show people the truith not in wise words but in example how man must do, so he became man and showed himself how man must do right things. its what we in orthodoxy believe in. its true christianity. all other is schismatic.

Wrong, his disciples asked if it was right to worship Him. He told them it was, because He and the Father are the same.

>doesn't even know the New Testament.

God the Father and God the Son are two separate persons, each a facet of the same God. They are one.

'Walk in the Faith' does not make you God. That is heresy. Salvation and deification allows us to become LIKE God, but there's an important distinction between saying you are like something and that you and that thing are one.

"If you have seen me , you have seen the father."

"I and the Father are one."

I Am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me."

Yes he affirmed he is God eternal above whom there is no other. Before whom none existed.

>I knew Abraham
>before Abraham was, I am.
"I am" as in the burning bush.

>"I and the Father are one."
"for my Father is greater than I". (John 14:28)

>Why do christians have such a hard time understanding this simple logical principle?
Which is?

If you really want answers, then go read the Church Fathers. You want logic? They dissected Plato.

In keeping with this, I'm assuming that the OP is Muslim?

There are many names for God in Islam. One of them is 'Al Haqq,' 'The Truth.' When Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life," Jesus is calling himself God in Muslim terms.

Another Muslim term for God: 'An Nur,' the light. In John 8:12, Jesus calls himself the light of the world.

Yet another: 'Al Hakam,' the judge. In Matthew 25, Jesus details how he will judge the world.

The list goes on. If Jesus said many of the things he said in the New Testament to Muslims today, they would likely be just as upset as the Jewish teachers who heard him say "I and the Father are one."

Actually, God didn't say "I AM" in Ex 3:14. In Greek, he said "Ego ei'mi ho'on" and Jesus said "Ego ei'mi" in John 8:58. Literally, "Ego ei'mi ho'on" means "I am the being" whereas Jesus phrase translates literally to "I am." Those are literal translations though without the meaning in tact. In English, God said "I become whatever I have to become" or "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be."

In John 8:58 Jesus wasn't talking about his identity but of his age. Ego'ei'mi is used to describe an event that happened in the past that continues down to this day. Trinitarians said that Jesus words were in the present tense, on the contrary, they are in the TEMPORAL tense. Ego'ei'mi is used by others in the Bible and do not point to God but to an event that happened in the past and continues down to their present.
CONTINUED

Yes? There are other instances of this in the Bible. "In the beginning, the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Tell me: according to the Abrahamic story of creation, you are composed of a body, a soul, and a spirit. Which is greatest? How can they all exist and be 'you' simultaneously?

Even this interpretation leads to the conclusion that Jesus claims that he is God. What you give is also the precise interpretation that Jewish scholars today give to God's response to Moses' inquiry: "Who are you?"

>Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

>Jesus refers to himself as "I am" which is how the Lord responded to Moses same line of questioning

Fuck.
Off.

“I HAVE BEEN”[4] - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB

(2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes

(3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis

(4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN” - The Unvarnished New Testament

(5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt

(6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck

(7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed

(8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams

(9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible

(10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible

(11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible

(12)“I WAS” - Holy Bible - From the Ancient Eastern Text, Lamsa

(13)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise
Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).

(14) “I WAS” - The Syriac New Testament, Jas. Murdock

(15) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson

(16) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament

The Trinity doctrine is not Biblical. It is only supported through fallacies, spurious verses and incorrect translated verses. This is a good example up above. All the other Trinity "proof text" are also translated under the same bias as well. This guy has it right.. The Bible does not teach the Trinity. The trinity was invented by the Catholic Church in the 4th Century through centuries of controversies. The Bible, objectively, doesn't support it nor imply it.

You should note also that Jesus' original language wasn't Greek. You should also consult the Aramaic transcripts.

Read the beginning of John you peasants. This shouldn't even be an issue but it is.

wrong, hes a figment of your imagination. how fucking retarded do you have to be to believe in a 2000yo book written by low-IQ sand niggers?

Praise Jesus OP and repent. Your post was 1 digit away from ending in 666. Consider it a warning! Praise Christ!

29My Father, which gavethemme, is greater than all; and nomanis able to pluckthemout of my Father's hand.30I andmyFather are one. John 10 :^)

>everything is done by the average

>the concept of trinity is too hard for him

If you look at the context of the previous verses it is apparent that they were discussing his age.

>(John 8:57) Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”

Now add these correct Translations to the verse up above.Jesus answered them "I have existed before Abraham." Jesus wasn't talking about his identity but about HIS AGE. He was old enough to have seen Abraham.

Coming from Cuckistan.

>>except through me.

>> refers to himself as "I am"

Almost like he's a son of god. And that he taught that we are all the children of god.

Everything you have in your life is thanks to him. And it's thanks to Hitler. You are not an island. Every single thing in your life is thanks to every single human that has ever existed.

You cannot reach god without recognizing the divinity of humanity. That is his message. Why do you think he preached the importance of loving thy neighbor? Bitch, that neighbor is "Jesus". If you love jesus, you will love his divine humanity. The humanity that we all share.

Fucking. Christcucks.

>what is the Nicene Creed

dont let the ministers of satan cause you to question your faith. let our theology be dogma and settled concrete. an attack against the divinity of Jesus is not something you debate, its an absurdity. bypass these malicious attempts to make us uncertain and engage quickly in evangelism, proclaiming the truth of the gospel and its spiritual power

Yes. And we were made in god's image. We are the same as god. That is what jesus was teaching. That's why he was crucified. That's why he was called blasphemous. "Son of God" was applied to powerful rulers, not peasants. Because the elites considered their kind "above" and "more divine" then the rabble. Jesus was teaching people that the power of god is within.

Seriously do you even study the fuckin religion?

Actually no. This is the correct interpretation based on the original Koine Greek used to wright the Bible. This is how Jesus truly answered. God only said the MEANING of his name, Jehovah, which means "He Causes to Become." That's why he said "I shall become whatever I shall become." Jesus was talking about his age and answered them back correctly "I existed before Abraham." Not I AM.

Ego'ei'mi is used by others in the Bible and do not point to God but to an event that happened in the past and continues down to their present.

>(Luke 2:48) Now when they saw him they were astounded, and his mother said to him: “Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I in mental distress have been(Ego'ei'mi) looking for you.”

>(John 5:6) Seeing this man lying down, and being aware that he had already been (Ego'ei'mi) [sick] a long time, Jesus said to him: “Do you want to become sound in health?”

>(1 John 3:8) He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been(Ego'ei'mi) sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil.

>(Matthew 8:9) For I too am(Ego'ei'mi) a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Be on your way!’ and he is on his way, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”

>(2 Corinthians 12:19) Have YOU been(Ego'ei'mi) thinking all this while that we have been(Ego'ei'mi) making our defense to YOU? It is before God that we are speaking in connection with Christ. But, beloved ones, all things are for YOUR upbuilding.

Wherever you see "have been" or "has been" " I been" is literally "I AM." So Jesus in John 8:58 meant to say "I HAVE BEEN existing before Abraham."

Imperial bullshit. Arian was """right""" but he shouldn't have pressed it and caused so much issue.

do you? It's pretty clear humans are below god and need god to ascend to heaven, not man.

Like this is stated ad nauseum in the bible you moron.

Did you just copy this from the Watchtower pamphlet? lol

For the record, 'eimi' is the present tense, indicative mood, meaning that this tense may, indeed, have timeless implications. This implication, however, in terms of literary Greek of the period, depended on context. Given that precisely this verb and verb tense is used in the statement, "Before Abraham was, I AM," the context of its usage may well imply a timeless existence, since it makes precisely zero sense to state that you existed before Abraham but that your point is just that you currently exist.

You should also note that the Greek rendering of "Yahweh," "Gk egō eimi" includes precisely this verb and its conjugation.

You're a far-cry from being able to definitively reject the notion that this "I AM" is the same as God's "I AM." You should also note that "eimi" is the closest Greek projection of the tense of the Hebrew "ehyeh."

In this larp, Jesus spent time in the Himalayas studying Buddhism between the ages of 13 and 23.

(You)(You)(You)(You) and (You)
>"follow me, and you shall be fishers of men"
If someone metaphorically has a fishhook in their mouth, it means they're extremely gullible.

It seems, to me, that you're really stretching yourself here to enforce a strict interpretation of a verb conjugation.

Even so, to what end? The fact that Jesus existed before Abrahahm doesn't eliminate God as his identity. Is this just the lead-up to you claiming that Jesus is just the incarnation of the archangel Michael (I think that's the JW interpretation)?

If so, I can't wait to see the wall(s) of text you'll need to stretch things similarly to cover all of the holes made when you try reconcile Michael with the requirements and properties of Christ.

>God does exist, and his nature was revealed to us in the life and teaching of Christ.

Strangely enough, I completely agree with this. But, my relationship with God does not require me to elevate Christ beyond what I believe him to have been: one of many bright lights that have appeared in our world.

>I andmyFather are one. John 10 :^)

This verse is famously interpreted out of context. These verses below will help clear out how Jesus and his father are "one."

>(John 10:30) I and the Father are one.”

>(John 17:11) “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.

>(John 17:21) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

>(1 Corinthians 3:6-8) I planted, A•pol′los watered, but God kept making [it] grow; so that neither is he that plants anything nor is he that waters, but God who makes [it] grow. 8 Now he that plants and he that waters are one,…

>(Galatians 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.

>(Romans 12:5) so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but members belonging individually to one another.

Regarding John 10:30, John Calvin (who was a Trinitarian) said in the book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”

If you notice up above, Jesus wants the Apostles to be "one" the same way Jesus and his father are one. He even petitions for the Apostles, himself(Jesus), and God to all be one as well. It is obvious from this context that being one has nothing to do with Trinitarian substance but with unity in mind, deeds, and goals.

John 20

>28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


/thread

If jesus was not god he would have said thomas you fool , he says nothing , so it confirms jesus is god

I think the dogma on the Trinity turns off a lot of people, particularly when it's sloppily explained.

If people understand Christ to be their savior, and follow him, and seek forgiveness from God, I don't see how relatively small issues related to the specific nature of the relationship between The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are such a critical thing to argue about.

Fundamentally, the complete nature of God is a mystery of our faith. God's full nature is, by necessity, beyond our comprehension. We are his creation. To know all things would violate our place within his creation. He has revealed his heart and will to us through his son Jesus. He supports us and continues to move in our world through the Holy Spirit. We waste time and cause unnecessary division arguing over how Jesus could simultaneously be God and pray to him (via The Father). To the human mind, this seems strange. But from the perspective of God demonstrating to us through his Son how we are to live, how we are to pray, how we are to love, and how we are to sacrifice for one another and for God, the actions of Christ are both reasonable and beautiful.

Christ spoke with the full authority of God. His words are God's words. His death was a demonstration of God's love for us and served as both judgement and redemption of the human race. Jesus's resurrection proved he was God's Son and that God would conquer death for those who followed him. His ascension showed that God was establishing him to his place at his right hand as Lord over his kingdom.

For me, this is enough. Christ is God's Son and the savior of the human race. His nature, like the nature of the Holy Spirit, is the same nature as "God" (in this case The Father). I think spending much more time dissecting this issue is counterproductive and has nothing to do with salvation or performing the will of God in this life.

It was hard for Isaac Newton also. Smart people get hung up on this issue a lot.

The problem is that all these Trinitarian Bibles disagree with you. You can discard me as being biased towards JW but good luck trying to dismiss your own scholars and translators as pointed out here and here:

>1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G.R.Noyes.

>1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.M.P.Smith and E.J.Goodspeed.

>1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

>1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

>1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

It is sooo obvious that all these translations corrected the mistake and narrative of the KJV of I AM.

Depends on bait quality.

>If you notice up above, Jesus wants the Apostles to be "one" the same way Jesus and his father are one.
This is the core of Christianity. God is making His images live like Him. Comparable to our attempts at creating artificial intelligence based on ourselves. But Christ was the goal, and yet angels are not perfect (the best of them fell).

>My God, my God, why hast though forsaken me

Jesus was referencing psalms since he was dying on the cross he could not recite it all

Psalm 22

1{To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.} My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

>Jesus forgives sins
>the only one with the authority to this is God, no prophet has ever done this

Well mystery solved, he didn't even have to say it. Nice try Islamfag, better luck next time.

Tell that to all these obvious translations. Your own translators have been translating this verse as "I have been existing before Abraham" for centuries.If you don't want to believe Jesus is Michael, fine. However these verses are undeniable.

>(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

>(Revelation 3:14) “And to the angel of the congregation in La•o•di•ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD,

>(Micah 5:2) “And you, O Beth′le•hem Eph′ra•thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose ORIGIN IS FROM EARLY TIMES, from the days of time indefinite.

Jesus is actually God's very first creation ever. He is a part of creation himself and then proceeded to help his father make the rest of existence.