One of these things must absolutely be correct:
The West and Russia will someday become true allies with common goals.
There will be perpetual antagonistic geopolitical maneuvering between the two.
Which one is it Sup Forums ?
Are the Dons and Le Pens ushering in a new era of cooperation? Or is it merely a symptom of Russia trying to gain power by supporting cooperative candidates?
>The West and Russia will someday become true allies with common goals.
Fuck off, we aren't going to fell for the same bait once again.
The latter. Geography demands it. If you think that Trump is going to be "buddy buddy" with Putin you have another thing coming - he will continue to work against the interests of Russia, but will do so in a way that is less likely to start a major war.
Im pretty ignorant of the history concerning the west vs russia other than some sparse facts about the cold war.
What bait are you referring to?
>What bait are you referring to?
>trust us russkies, let's cooperate, let's make a deals
What if political turmoil, famines, and climate disasters create so many refugees that the west and russia gain more from cooperating than they would from wasting resources competing? If the options are work together or else the world becomes saudi arabia, you don't think theyd stop with the geopolitical dickery?
Not saying that's likely, but I feel like you could come up with some circumstances that might produce an at least temporary alliance.
Can I get some actual insight from you as to how you feel about the west because I dont think ive ever spoken to a real russian about it.
>Can I get some actual insight from you as to how you feel about the west
I dislike west, you ruined my country, and now when Russia have the highground you trying to trick us into "let's be allies russkies" this shit never ends well for us
>because I dont think ive ever spoken to a real russian about it.
>пoдpaзyмeвaя, чтo я бyдy тpaтить вpeмя нa пoиcки пpyфoв для кaнaдцa
Do you hold communism/internal corruption partially responsible for the state of your country or do you think its 100% the west's fault?
>do you think its 100% the west's fault?
Mostly it's West actions against USSR and Russia Federation. Hope we will continue our pro-East policy.
If you could see a version of 2017 where communism had prevailed in Russia, and you saw that the country would be worse off, would you still hate the west for forcing capitalism on you? For the sake of argument, assuming definitely that Russia would be worse off if communism had prevailed.
Or we could fifnish economical reforms and be better then China
Europe always talked shit about Russia throughout the history, but cooperation is needed for both sides.
Copypasta, not mine:
USSR collapse was not caused by the elites, it was caused by the overall, let's say, 'crisis of faith' - both the elites and the people became really disillusioned with the whole communism ideology (especially as communism is not achievable in communities larger than ~1k people), and the tension in the society grew. USSR could never be defeated in any war, but it was soundly defeated in peace.
Of course the elites caused the fail of democracy, even though they were helped a lot by common people. I don't shift the blame away from Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Gaidar, and most people always blamed them.
But to deny that the media helped to nurture the resentment towards the West is to shift blame, too. One of the reasons for the collapse of the Union was the belief common people held that in the West everything is much better, and learning that the West lies as much as our dear Communist Party did, just in a different way, was a shocking wake up call.
To simplify things (a lot), people said "ok, we agree that we were wrong, we're at your mercy - we will abandon our destructive ideology and will follow your way of life, because it's superior" - and then we got fucked in the arse by the crooks, both in the elites and among the common people (bandits and racketeers), while the enlightened mentors applauded. Yes, the crooks are guilty, and they are to be blamed, but is it surprising that we have no warm feelings towards the people standing in the lines, applauding that rape, even if they didn't mean to do that?
As far as an average Russian person sees it, when we suffer - the West applauds; when our living conditions improve - the West condemns us. And it didn't start with Ukraine or even Georgia - many people still remember how Chechen terrorists, who made living by kidnapping and blowing up people, were lauded as 'freedom fighters suffering under delusional Moscow regime still clinging to obsolete Soviet ideas' by the West.
Didnt we have to be harsher on you than China because you were supporting communism around the world more than they were? If there had been no ideological war between communism and capitalism Russia would be much better off. Since capitalism is better than communism in my opinion, I would expect you to at least have mixed emotions about the west rather than full dislike. The west fucked you up in some ways, but quite possibly saved you from a worse fate. The world is better because communism was stopped.
Okay thank you that is some real insight. I definitely see your point of view better now. I agree that the West sees Russia as the boogeyman, and treats them unfairly considering how they willingly conceded defeat and made themselves vulnerable in good faith.
or at least might have treated them unfairly initially. These days its harder to point fingers because the countries are both guilty of antagonizing each other directly or indirectly.
The 90's are the real mess. It's really hard to pinpoint and answer the question "Who is to blame?". Most of the info is really unreliable and comes from sources that dip in or are a pure conspiracy and let's be honest, there were funds and deals from the West which were supposed to help Russia. I'm more inclined to lean that was just general fuck from our side. But still, I really support the point that West did nothing to stop that and conveniently closed their eyes on many things that caused real suffering to Russians while painting a whole different picture for their audience.
Fuck, the image of tracksuit wearing chav that still associated with Russia and shared among many westerns causes immense butthurt for me. Often some ridiculous wacky shit presented that happened in Russia presented as the regular occurrence, which is in most cases is not. At best you view as zany rednecks, loveable fools. Mostly, honestly just as downright alien, retarded people with a lack of self-preservation.
Let's be honest. There are almost no reasons for West to be helpful. Pragmatically thinking, it was a premiere moment to finish off your arch enemy. From your point of view its a right move. And from our, you are lying douchebags.
I'll be outright honest, watching you guys collapse and suffer would bring me a great joy.
that was just general fuck up from our side*
Often some ridiculous wacky shit that happened in Russia presented as*
At best you view us zany rednecks*
Some minor brainfart fixing.
Fuck off westerner.
Also, piggybacking that comment. Trump already proposes to cut off nuclear arsenal in exchange for lifting sanctions, which surely will go better than the previous disarmament deal :^)
There is also an underlying belief among Sup Forums Mr. Trump supporters that we will together gang on China. That's probably the most stupid thing Russia can do, antagonising one of the world's strongest nations that have borders with us in the same landmass.
Seems like let's deal with the US problems together and by the way screw Russia again by the way.
And how there could be friendly cooperation when at least 50% of Americans view us as a pure evil?
Well Putin is alpha, so I am sure he will convince president Tiny Hands to remove sanctions and pay reparations first.
pleeeeeese fuck trump up as much as possible. 50% of americans will be supporting you :-)
It's a wash because you already believe that we helped to get Trump in office. That's like the lose-lose situation either way. Friendship with Russia probably was the biggest jew meme pushed on Sup Forums.
I literally believe that Trump was chosen to completely discredit the right movement and fuck Russia even further by the way. Next democratic nominee would be OVERWHELMINGLY anti-Russia.
>Next democratic nominee would be OVERWHELMINGLY anti-Russia.
IMO, but mostly it would be mostly "wonderboy who will fix everything" with clear reputation.
Like post-Yeltsin kind of thing? Kek.
Well not exactly.
so you guys really didn't have anything to do with it? i don't really know much about the situation, other than we're supposed to hate russia or something, but after reading your comments, i see where you're coming from about the cold war and everything. i just really hate trump, fuck that fat fuck
Who knows? There are no concrete proofs. I personally believe that we kinda helped to place few last straws to "break" your back. Trump abused populistic issues that plague your everyday American, which is kinda funny btw, because a literal rich as fuck man seemed to be closer to the common man that democratic nominee.
I think we kind of unaware accomplice that one of US political groups used to push their agenda against another group. I don't think any of groups had the delusion that Russia is a friend and they currently banking on anti-Russian hysteria due to alleged hacking. Bonus point if they can trick Russia with another lies. Trump's so-called pro-Russia cabinet picks, like Rex Tillerson, already putting tough statements on Russia. I think Pence always been anti-Russian.
I like you guys :^)
The second
We wanna be a global power with our own sphere of interest, you want to keep all power to yourselves
>Rex Tillerson
Literally, who?
but breakup of NATO should be good for you, no? hopefully trump can lift the sanctions too and you guys can prosper. i have nothing against the russian people and it sucks that there's so much anti-russian sentiment.
I'm not sure how much longer we can prop up an alcoholic nation with a third of our population, an economy the size of Italy and which has a terrible relationship with pretty much everybody around it except for Eastern Ukraine, currently under crippling indefinite economic sanctions as an evil boogey-man.
I understand the Jews fear now. Irrational widespread hysteria and hatred can spread so fast and with little way to stop it when permitted by real power and the media, and even in an era of science you see people in power like McCain who repeat the same mantra over and over again, "Putin wants a world empire!", despite that there is absolutely no evidence that what occurred in Georgia and Ukraine was anything at all like reconstructing the Soviet goddamned empire.
Perhaps Russia would not be so keen to establish close relationships with neighbors were the US not currently running military drills on it's borders? Is it possible to be so solipsistic and narrow-minded that you sanction a country much weaker than you, slander them daily, move against them using all international organizations at your disposal, and then run military exercises on their borders, and then accuse THEM of being an international bully?
I will be on America's side always and I know what Russian propaganda looks like. But the US is being completely unreasonable and I can only assume that many politicians are still suffering from cold war psychosis.
Russia is winning the global chess game.
how?
Well, it would. Maybe. On another hand, we would lose a useful fearmongering tool for the domestic audience. Honestly, our relations with Eastern Europe are so far in FUBAR bar, nothing will truly mend it. If anything, it would cause another shitfest with Baltics moving even further into paranoia induced nightmare and they would even greatly expand their military spending while trying to bake up some kind of military alliance with rest or Europe. Don't they dream about federal EU army of something anyway?
But it's still the unlikely case, NATO will remain, it's like a literal tool of the US domination over the world. From my point of view, Trump just would force an extortion from "underspending" members and everything will as business as usual. Maybe victims of that racket would hate scary Russia even more, cuz they spend more money because of us :^)
Worse, many European countries allowed KGB agents under Yeltsin to store funds looted from Soviet coffers in their banks.
However I would say that America's biggest mistake was not immediately invading Russia and Westernizing it with a close hand, as we did with Japan. We had the chance to break the Bear's back and instead let it bleed out on the floor, which is actually more cruel in my opinion.
We are #1 country in the world.
Tillerson is saying what he has to. The hysteria against Russia is mainly contained within the establishment, and that was who was grillng Tillerson. You can't take every statement as fact.
Tolsto
Says 404 country.
>relations with Eastern Europe
It only took 50ish years of propaganda to make richest parts of Russian Empire/USSR believe they were 'oppressed'. It can be undone.
Not with our current "bull in china shop" culture and policy though.
i think trump's serious about it. i talked to some of my friends who're diehard trump supporters and they see europe as beyond hope, not worth protecting anymore. never underestimate the stupidity of our voters
So you are denying that Russia is pure evil?
Can you say that clearly into the microphone please?
>That's why we like you though
Even we fell for the western propaganda. There was a literal belief that everything west is better and ours is shit, and there is some truth in it, sadly. There is also no tangible benefits for them be friendly with us, the western sphere will literally outbid us in friendship race. Current paranoia is actively inflated by both sides and nobody wants to stop because of fear receiving knife between your ribs.
After some lazy research I got to this conclusion:
Russia exports energy and resources, Europe demands energy and resources. Europe and Russia can get along, it's in the best interest of Russia to get along with Europe, since they pay good money, but it has to compete with other people selling energy & stuff like USA and British allies in the Middle East, which is probably part of the cause of today's shitstorms like Syria and the alleged hackings and such.