I want cities and towns to be divided up into local councils which function as the local government. These local people's councils will elect a representative to a higher council that represents the whole country and make the economic plan. Companies are controlled by workers councils or syndicates and land is owned collectively. Local militias defend each commune from other communes and the state plays a minimal role.
Debate me.
>Whirlybirds
no you don't. because then all the white people in the cities would vote to kick the shitskins out. and you wouldn't want that.
>I want cities and towns to be divided up into local councils which function as the local government. These local people's councils will elect a representative to a higher council that represents the whole country and make the economic plan
So you want current America. You fucking people are so stupid its pathetic
Thats fine with me.
Give me 1 example where communism has been prosperous in the multiple countries it's been tried.
Why did the USSR fail?
>Elect Representatives on a council
>Local militias
>Companies
>Partaking in a unanimous decision to work out economics
>Cities and Towns
There is nothing Communist about what you just said.
Not like that. More like Rojava.
Because they never gave the workers the means of production. And eventually their economy got too big to be planned.
The workers own the means of production.
How do you plan on avoiding the horrible bloat and inefficiency that plagues government run organisations and industry?
back to r*ddit
Why didn't they give the workers the means of production?
I suppose Rojava or Catalonia. Production increased productivity increased...
Because they wanted more power for themselves. This is the problem with vanguard parties.
i want to fuck your wife.
seize the means of reproduction!
Why did they want more power?
By having communities plan their own economy on a local level or having computers do most of the planning. Google black rock.
Because it was in their self interest.
How were the happiness levels?
All black Rock brings up is a town in Victoria and a movie.
Well, now i just hate commies more now.
Pretty good. In Rojava the rest of the country is either ISIS or Assad.
Economic/Risk calculation place.
blackrock.com
Why?
So how is this going to make government owned organisations more efficient?
this is stupid though and can already true in a lot cases.
there are employee owned companies. why would you ENFORCE that? your taking freedom for nothing.
because you actually think that this time you'll really actually get the means of production, even if it has been tried a dozen times to get it to the people, and it always, always ends up in the hands of more corrupt folks than before any (((revolution)))
>These local people's councils will elect a representative to a higher council that represents the whole country and make the economic plan
So, you want between 100-1000 people to make an economic plan for the entire US ($18 trillion dollars). By comparison, largest hedge fund in the US, managers about $150 billion dollars and they have 1.7k employees. en.wikipedia.org
Because we want workers to be free from surplus value theft.
They could if they wanted to get others to do it for them.
So you want a military dictatorship roleplaying as anarcho-communist paradise?
>surplus value theft.
then go start a business?
anyone can do this. anyone can buy means of production, nothing is stopping them.
again why FORCE this? why ENSLAVE people into your idea of what they should do?
if someone wants means of production he buys it. simple.
Collectivism failed. Human nature, and the need to produce and have national power will take over the text book theory and it will become a blood bath.
If you want to do it on a tiny island with a couple of people you know, go for it, but real government cannot be based on the first delusions of "rich vs poor"
This is true and is why Leninist style vanguard parties not work and become totalitarian. We need a syndicalist style revolution driven by unions with out leaders.
Okay, and I can fly.
Explain how you'll have a revolution led by unuons without leaders. Leaders are inherent to our human nature, we need leadership and hierarchy, it's in our blood.
Better calculation and less bureaucracy. Most small decisions will be made by the workers voting democratically. The state only tells them what to make.
>human nature
Humans don't want to be dominated. We want to be cooperative.
Worker's councils and collective land ownership suck, you don't end oppression and exploitation, you just leave it informal, and thefore, lawless.
Some charismatic leadership will still rise to the top of the hierarchy in the commune and use it to his own benefit. Pic related.
The only possible way you can prevent this if you have a rigid moral code and strong patriarchal families that divide power. Like the Amish do, so a charismatic leadership can't rise to the top. But we all know commies hate families and morality.
I mean they could outsource the task if they wanted too.
>The state only tells them what to make.
who/what is the state in your fairy tale?
>Better calculation and less bureaucracy.
in what world has the government been able to do better than private sector? don't please don't say Germany war economy in WW2
I don't hate families or morality.
Read my OP.
>implying with 300 million people you wouldn't atleast have 1 million government employees or council workers or whatever
>implying half of them wouldn't eventually work at the government council
What you want is irrelevant. By the very nature of any kind of organization, leadership arises, even at the most egalitarian institutions.
I want to know why communists are so disgusting?
This is really important.
please answer this question ZtWZ5jof
...
Silly commie. The main problem with your ideology isn't with the goals you wish to achieve, but how you wish to achieve them. If you could get a group of people to voluntarily live in the commie town you wish to create then great.
Just don't you force or violate people's property rights,
The workers own the means of production now what the fuck are you talking about? Do you just think CEOs sit on their ass all day long? They have to work too to bring income otherwise their PRIVATELY OWNED businesses full of PAYED WORKERS will fail.
...
Wait, if you are a communist, what books have you written on the subject and where can I buy them? What are your qualifications? I mean if I am going to invest time debating with you I must know whether you have any credibility. Intellectual giants do not debate with retards. So before we go any further please state your credentials as a communist, otherwise you may not be a communist but someone who has just read communism for beginners or communism in a nutshell
Then youre not a communist
please don't ignore half my post m8. where in the world has government done better than private market? why would you assume this would happen?
>Read my OP.
i did, who is telling people what to make? you said the state? so central planners?
how do you plan on setting prices? you understand that economists in the USSR basically found it totally impossible? have you read there reports? were they just incompetent?
Nah man it'll work. Like, we'll have one guy make the bread, and like, another guy will grow the weed. And when someone wants weed we'll trade beads man
Being led by someone and being dominated are not the same. Leaders are a form of cooperation aswell and hierarchy actually allows for increased efficiency as people can specialise, which is harder to do when you're all supposed to be equal, there can be no leaders, or organisers, or things like that because they'll naturally introduce hierarchy, can they exist in your nation, and if so, why would you want them?
>government been able to do better than private sector
>allowing healthcare and education and banking to be (((privatised)))
it's like you want to fuck over your children as hard as possible
I think I'm missing something here. You linked me to an investment banker's site. Are you saying that we should live in a communist society with investors calling all the shots?
This would still do nothing for the inefficiency at the middle management and down level. When you're the boss, you don't let the workers vote on how long their lunch break should be.
If in factory office I work in would be controlled by 80% of factory physycial workers I would fucking kill myself rather than manage to get job done
>Local militias defend each commune from other communes and the state plays a minimal role.
So the next town invading my town and forcing us all into slavery for the greater good would be a legitimate fear in your set-up?
Yes, you do. Just as you hate workers, since they always refuse to participate in your bourgeois academia horseshit.
Its why workers are always biggest victims of communism.
You set prices based on labor.
Having essential services under government ownership isnt the same as having everything government owned.
They...couldn't? lol? Is that why Central planning won't work? Even if we have supercomputers and all the like right now?
Bah they wouldn't invade because they would have a rule against it. And you know how effective rules are lol
they were privatized in early america and it worked out fine. people tested better.
people do better in private educations. in areas in america where vouchers let people use their tax money to public or private education they choose private and test MUCH better then public counterparts.
how do you explain the fact that competition in schooling produces a better service than schools not forced to compete with anyone else?
this data is readily available, let me get you started.
google.com
so you are wrong there, would you like me to talk about healthcare too? you seem to be pretty uninformed though.
move along m8. this guy is low level
>when you have to steal to avoid being stolen from
/thread
How does one own the means of production?
I mean how do you prove it?
how is it not? they're still services, right? banking is privately owned, how is that not an "essential service"?
...
How will you deal with those who refuse to work?
Would you cut off their welfare benefits completely?
>property
>real
Choose one.
Do you think CEO's work 900 times harder than you?
Yes, I think that a nationalised bank is essential.
In Catalonia the workers did better without bosses.
>Companies are controlled by workers councils or syndicates
Literally why?
Please don't explain this to communist, he never worked, so that thought never crossed his mind.
Does a surgeon work four times harder than orderly who changes bed sheets all day?
No black rock uses computer algorithms to calculate what the economy would do. That could work.
>communists
>capable of thinking critically inside of realistic terms
You all just wanna scream about issues and your "solutions" that are not possible and are pipe dreams mostly.
>EVERYONE NEEDS 1MILLION DOLLARS EVERYTHING IS MAGICAL
Communist labor is worth zero. There, I set up your price, what now?
If they don't contribute I don't know why they should get something back.
Yes. I'm talking about company owners and stuff. if you think they actually work like 20 billion times harder then everyone else and yet can take vacations and stuff then you are wrong.
Trust me, this will not work out the way you imagine
It always starts with these "everything has a local government" talks but ultimately turns into a kike junta
That's probably more due to a failing education system which, as you said, suffers from lack of competition. Also, most people from private education institutions are from rich families, that ought to make a difference as rich people tend to have higher IQs and smarter children.
I thought communism was stateless? You've already failed making communism - just like the rest who've tried. It literally can't happen.
Only one ideology is just enough for all of mankind.
Labor is worth what it can produce. If I make a pie with my labor my labor is worth one pie.
It worked in Rojava.
that doesn't answer the question of why no one has been able to successfully set prices by their own admission. explain this? how will you avoid this? you think people in the USSR didn't know to pay people for labor?
>They...couldn't?
right.
>that ought to make a difference
Again, the government is already reasonable good at moving money around. This issue with government inefficiency isnt found at the very top or due to poor investment.
The issue, as far as I can see, is that public organisations don't exist in a survival of the fittest environment. It becomes bloated and inefficient just as domesticated and decadent people become. Go to your local motor vehicle registry for an example.
How would you seize the means of production when it comes to my dropshipping business?
who is stealing? go to a commune if you dont want to work. beg. no one is forcing you but you will force them.
You understand you keep referencing a "nation" that is about 3-4 years old, right?
>that ought to make a difference
but it doesn't. remember i said the voucher system? that is not rich people. that is everyone. private education is better than public education i really suggest you look into this rather than, without evidence, you accept it blindly.
you seem smarter than that.
I was never interrogated by capitalist police. I was on the other hand interrogated by communist police.
Stop mudying waters, did your upper class, white professor help you to put that pic together?
Nah, I'd like to see such leeches strung up just like you but it seems like you can't appreciate that skills and knowledge can make a man's time more valuable. Do you think you could jump into a CEO's position and drive the company forward? Do you think that a man capable for producing twice that products of his neighbour is entitled to twice the compensation?
Private companies are very inefficient based on this factor also. They produce only for profit and not for the greater needs of society so useless crap ends up being made.