Does torture work?

Does torture work?

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does the Pope shit in the woods

No. I think even napoleon bonaparte said something like "when you torture them they'll just tell you what you want to hear making the information useless"

honestly I dont see how it would work. The victim would end up making false confessions

Sometimes.

The quality of the help also makes a huge difference.

should just neck em and carpet bomb their city, like the good ol days.

This:
Mad Dog Mattis himself told Trump as much.

The only thing torture is useful for is getting a "confession" out of people in a corrupt authoritarian system so you can execute them with some hint of legitimacy.

Depends on the method. You would have to create an incentive for telling the truth.

It depends how you frame it? As an interrogation technique? Maybe but it is not the real purpose, is it? Torture is meant to intimidate the people you haven't tortured yet. Is it effective? Yes but stuff like water boarding isn't scary enough to count as torture.

As a threat upon weak captives to get talking? Yes, but if they're that loose-lipped you could make more dignified threats.
To just make someone you hate have a terrible day? Yes, absolutely, and modern tortures are so efficient you can keep their nerves healthy for years and years, inflicting aggregate punishment much worse than the Rat + Flowerpot of the old days.
But it's not effective at extracting accurate information.

You guys don't understand how torture + time works. They ask questions over and over while torturing them. They cross reference the answers after the sessions and the lies are easy to spot. When a prisoner is in a complete panic and in pain his mind can only quick recall the truth.

>waterboarding is torture
but that's wrong

Like the Nuremberg Trials?

t. edgelord

you niggers dont know how torture works

you dont ask anything until they are totally mentaly broken

This nigga gets it.

What would you classify as torture, my 14 year old friend?

Yes.

I don't know how this Millennial meme of 'They'll tell you anything you want to hear!' got started, but it's absolutely untrue. Torture someone for long enough, and they'll tell you everything they know. Torture their family members in front of them. Burn them. Maim them. You'll get what you're after.

Now if after they've told you what they know and you continue to torture them past that breaking point, then they'll start rattling off random bullshit, but that's pretty easy to differentiate based on the cogency of what they're saying, and how close it is to the thread of information you're trying to extract.

Pic related in a meta sort of way.

>absolutely untrue
Sources?

no
but that doesn't matter
sometimes execution isn't enough

Nonononononono, you only torture them, if they have confirmed ties/connections and blatantly refuse to give you information upon request.

Torturing random people and grunts is futile and a waste of time. Higher key figures and leaders are where torturing shines.

Common sense.

I think that as a means of extracting information it might not be ideal but as a means of reform and deterrence for common criminals it's probably better than our current system. If you inflict a one-shot horrific experience on somebody who's done wrong you provide the person with a reason to not commit more crimes and a clear example to others who would do the same. Imprisonment is expensive. Not only does it remove the prisoners productivity, but decent law-abiding people are needed to guard and care for the prisoner, as well as a mountain of tax money. The only reason I oppose torture is the chance of it happening to me if it were a mainstream practice. I don't break laws but it's a scary concept. But then a busted prison system is just a scary so I wouldn't protest if it was introduced either.

Ah. Well the common consensus in this thread is against your conclusion, and I'd hardly expect Sup Forums to be at the left of the spectrum on this.

C'mon, man.

It works in cases where you can verify their answer.

Also, you could torture two people simultaneously and keep going until they give the same answer.

Would you give up information if you were tortured?

What. That's such a recursive answer. So you're saying it works when it works?

SHUTITDOWN!

Not for information gathering

It's not. For example, torture would work pretty well when you're trying to get someone's password to a computer, since the answer is easy to check.

Does it work? Well, would I submit to torture? Yes. Everybody has their breaking point. Everybody. Dilbertman actually had an interesting little article about this
blog.dilbert.com/post/156591306416/the-persuasion-filter-looks-at-torture-does-it

I would, but if I were a low level grunt I'd just be following orders and would have nothing of value to give. If I were high ranking, there would be good reason for my being high ranking - loyalty, rigorous training, etc - which would probably have an effect on my willingness to give up information. Are there any high ranking soldiers the us have caught and extracted valuable information from?

>Also, you could torture two people simultaneously and keep going
>two people simultaneously

>and keep going

>common consensus

I'll take the Bandwagon Fallacy for 500, Trebek.

Let's suppose you stole a cookie. You don't want to cop to it, because you'll be known as a cookie-thief. So I take you outside and I break your fingers with a hammer and ask if you've done anything bad lately. Now this illustrates two points. The first is that anyone else who was tortured and asked that question might make up some bullshit to stop the pain, but their answer wouldn't have anything to do with the specificity of what I had in mind - cookie theft - which would eliminate them from the list of suspects. This also shows that a good torturer knows how to ask the right questions to extract appropriate information. The second point is, for you, the punishment of confessing to the crime and therefore being known as a cookie thief is not as bad as me continuing the punishment.

Now the second part is important because it shows the value we place on information compared to other things of we have of value. If I take your daughter in front of you and put a gun to your head, and ask you in so many words about some troop movements, how do you think you'll respond? Oh, and I'll be sure to sprinkle in that if it turns out you're lying, she'll die anyway. Vegas odds says the punishment of watching your daughter butchered in front of you is probably more hurtful to you than revealing the troop movements. Is it a guarantee? Well, no, there's always the off chance that your relationship to your corps is more valuable than your own blood, but for most people, probably not.

tl;dr - Nothing is unbreakable so long as you apply enough force.

Yeah sure. But I'm asking whether torture works in totality, not situations in which torture works. I'm sure it has worked in the past with verifiable information, but I'm not asking that, I'm asking for a compelling argument for or against torture as a methodology.

Look up Marcus McDilda (haha yeah I know) and the atom bomb.

Marcus was a P-51 pilot who was shot down on August 8, 1945, and was brutally interrogated about the atomic bombs after they were dropped. Random joe fighter jock knew nothing obviously, but under torture he ''confessed'' that the U.S. had over a hundred more nuclear weapons and planned to destroy Tokyo and Kyoto in the next few days. He also gave a hilariously inaccurate description of what the bomb was based off a few quietly whispered rumors he'd heard. Today, historians think the B.S. he spun up under torture helped convince the Japanese to surrender.

ww2awartobewon.com/wwii-articles/marcus-mcdilda-p-51-pilot-atomic-bomb/
kentmitchellsramblings.blogspot.com/2009/10/lieutenant-marcus-mcdilda-unsung-hero.html
Jerome T. Hagen (1996). War in the Pacific, Chapter 25 "The Lie of Marcus McDilda". Hawaii Pacific University

buying them is much easier

>citing american war propaganda

For showing the consequences of participating in terrorism? Absolutely.

For getting information? Sometimes it work but I don't know enough and i'm not going to pretend like I do.

> if I were a low level grunt I'd just be following orders and would have nothing of value to give

I can also tell you obviously have no military experience. Lot's of E1-E4 enlisted Joe's have TS/SCI clearances these days, and they deploy, and that's the reason that most of them go through SERE for the specific purpose of learning to resist interrogation and torture.

This wasn't propaganda and only came out when Marcus was released after the war was over, Finncuck

>anyone else who was tortured
I'm sure that as a professional edgelord you place little value on human life, but surely you see how fucked-up-stupid this is. In your example, multiple people are needlessly injured, physically and mentally, in a pursuit of known unknowns.

Who gets to decide what counts as terrorism?

During the hunt for soviet serial killer who was later found to be Andrei Chickatilo

>The police effort concentrated on mentally ill citizens and known sex offenders, slowly working through all that were known and eliminating them from the inquiry. A number of young men confessed to the murders, although they were usually mentally handicapped youths who had admitted to the crimes only under prolonged and often brutal interrogation.

Innocent people will admit to being mass murders if you torture them.

So I guess the answer to your question is; Depends on the out come your looking for

documentingreality.com/forum/f237/andrei-chikatilo-crime-scene-photos-8291/

Your country's legal system. This isn't a meme issue like hipsters accusing you of being a nazi. Governments have processes.

> You place little value on human life.

You think the people in this world doing the non-PG13 (waterboarding) torture give much of a fuck about the value of human life? What planet are you reporting from?

You have autism

>we could have a system of crafty interrogators slowly earning the prisoners trust and convincing him to defect or atleast share everything he knows out of his own volition

>or just torture him until he spews up a bunch of random shit until we hear what we want to hear but we look so manly and badass doing it!

Torture has nothing to do with modern interrogation techniques and only a moron would recommend it.

>Yes but stuff like water boarding isn't scary enough to count as torture.

I've literally never heard of anyone who has been waterboarded saying it's not torture.

Fukin keked

never rely on only one method, and you should be aiming for a mental break not a physical one.

only in circumstances where you know the person is harboring information (KSM vs some lowly ISIS thug)

It depends. Tickle torture used to be pretty effective when I was a child.

If you torture your enemies, they win.

What the fuck are you on about?

One of the main reasons why half of the Japanese High Command wanted to surrender is because they tortured an American pilot while asking them how many A-bombs the US had left. The pilot obviously had no fucking clue but he told them we had 100. We had none.

The accuracy of coerced information is shit. Most of the time people don't know the info you really want anyway.

I can tell you how you completely break and turn someone, but you probably wouldn't listen anyway.

With out a doubt. I've been tortured.

story time?

Steven Crowder got waterboarded and he managed it for over twenty seconds. It's not torture.

Yeah I watched it. Do you think we torture people like a youtube christmas gag?

Also if waterboarding isn't torture, why use it? Step up to something you actually consider torture.

did torture work on Winston?

if case if you don't read or understand the ending--

No.

there are four fingers.

It's 'enhanced' interrogation. They tried more friendly methods and then when those didn't work they would stop being friendly.

Torture is used for time sensitive information.

There are much, much more efficient methods to extract information or turn operatives that aren't torture if you have time.

Look up SERE training. Can't go into the details, but torture is extremely broad.

People are quick to think of water boarding as torture, but it is only one torture method. Being in a tiny cell designed so a person can't lay down or sit while a sound loop of a baby crying plays constantly counts too. The anons are right that some methods are quick to elicit quick fake responses. The "say anything at that point" is an anti-interrogation method taught by every agency in the world.

There is a balance between physical and psychological torture. Physical torture can be used to quickly access passwords, which now gives the integrator access to personal information like family members.
Imagine being shown photos of military aged men that you "may" know, and one of the photos end up being your brother.

If the interrogator knows what they're doing, they'll know the answers to 8 of the 10 questions they're asking. You'll fight and lie for a couple days and he could come out saying, you've fought for nothing, we know these things. They have all the time in the world. By the end of it, your execution will be filmed and shown to the thousands, and everyone will say "How could he just sit there and let that happen" while you're starving, (likely high out of your mind if they have it get everything just right) thanking whatever god you believe in that it's all finally over.

Worst form of torture I can imagine (other than family/loved ones stuff) is tying somebody up, forcing LSD into them, and then speaking in gibberish deliberately the entire time. When they ask you wtf youre doing you get angry and beat them. You never stop doing this until they confess. Then you laugh, slap them on the shoulder and thank them for their cooperation.

>>waterboarding is torture
>but that's wrong
what's funny about the whole waterboarding thing, were the leftists out doing their "protest" thing and waterboarding each other to show the media how awful it was. i kek'd heartily. they can't handle not having a starbucks within 2 blocks at any given time, so if they can handle waterboarding for a couple of minutes, it can't be that bad.

it is very safe, yet still psychologically damaging

they were all grabbing at the media, "watch this watch this!!" like children. they'd get waterboarded for a few seconds, jump up crying and pretending to panick and hugging each other, then another would jump on the table for their turn. it was surreal.

Yup, that's why people do it.

It has to be done in multiple session though, as you record EVERYTHING they say, and ask the same questions multiple times. If you get the same answers over time, then you've got the truth as they know it, if not?

Well...

Are you fags retarded or what? You torture multiple people and compare their answers to see if they are lying. And you let the tortured know this, so that they do not lie.

>8 of 10 questions

No, they get 10 out of 10, except that 7 of 10 are bullshit.

For what?

It works for making me cum buckets

Does threatening to completely destroy their home area work?

Works great bro

youtube.com/watch?v=q_D0mqlxmzU

liveleak.com/view?i=eb4_1455747653

Yes, but it works on everyone.

Which fills your intelligence gathering with lies because they're desperately telling you anything they think you want to hear to make them stop. Including false confessions and implicating everyone they can.

If you give no shits about rights, torture can probably help you extract a few % more information you wouldn't have had otherwise.

The problem is that it's not really worth trading the standards and security we've built up in opposition to barbarism just to get that extra %. The value of being above torture is severely undervalued instead.

Note that I generally think we're too lax on crime in the west. It's all about finding the right balance where rehabilitation can work and repeat offenders are stopped.

Case in point a person from a barbarous nation replies in support of torturing everyone.

If we can't be better than an Islamic shithole, what's the fucking point?

just force feed LSD or some deliriant like belladonna into the fucker and after he comes down tell him youre gonna redose him until he cracks and you'll get whatever you're looking for 100% of the time regardless of their loyalty.

But, dear Sweden. You ARE an Islamic shithole...

That's cute, but treating people humanely and offering rewards / protection works much, much better than torture. Plus it means you don't have to be a complete piece of shit.

...

That only happens if they don't know the answer.
If you KNOW they know the answer, then you can be sure that torture will allow you to extract it.

Torture's not always useful, but in the right circumstances it can be very effective.

i also take this view. the one exception would be if someone had a passcode or bank vault combo and you knew they knew it but they didn't want to tell you.

What we need to do is put them in a simulation so they reveal to the truth some sort of virtual terrorist. Think the matrix except trying to get terrorists to reveal their plans

>But, dear Sweden. You ARE an Islamic shithole...

Fucking lying Pekka voivittu you'll get beheaded for this untruth, inshallah!

>just force feed LSD or some deliriant like belladonna into the fucker and after he comes down tell him youre gonna redose him until he cracks and you'll get whatever you're looking for 100% of the time regardless of their loyalty.

"Oh no free LSD, please stop."

That said there are much more persuasive drugs we could use and it's a fair argument to say that if we're not doing torture we might want to revisit the idea of drugging people (with safety standards in place) to make them blab.

You have the same problem with misinformation and you'll probably get 10 hours of confessions about watching cuck porn for every 2 minutes of truth.

>the one exception would be if someone had a passcode or bank vault combo and you knew they knew it but they didn't want to tell you.

This is the constant "ticking time bomb" scenario that never really exists. It's just a wedge question to force a grey area on what should be absolute morality.

>The problem is that it's not really worth trading the standards and security we've built up in opposition to barbarism

You mean like the standard of letting your nation be overrun by shitskins and muslims because you're afraid of being accused of being a racist? Is that the "standards" you're talking about, faggot?

Let's say I put your balls in a pair of pliers and told you that I knew the sky was red then I asked you what colour the sky was. How much more likely are you to answer red than blue? Is that telling me facts I can use or bullshit, but it's what I want to hear?

>Is that the "standards" you're talking about, faggot?

Americans have a real split personality on personal freedom.

One second you'll happily exclaim you have freedoms nobody else has, that liberty and self-governance are great values and that government should get the fuck out.

In the next second you're applauding people being curbstomped by police and mentally disturbed people being shot while posing no threat.

It's like you pretend to be for liberty and justice, but at heart you just want to see the jackboot come down on everyone, because you hope it'll be your annoying neighbour and not you.

That's not how tyranny works. Ask the turkroach.

where do i apply for this "torture"?

i dont think lying to the person that is torturing you would work very well in the long run if they found out you were lying

>niggers that don't know how torture works ITT
you make it clear to them that lying will produce far more horrific pain than any of the god awful shit you've done to them up to the present. involve family members. i'm using a dewalt power drill on your kneecap and i tell you if you lie to me your wife and kids are next and what, you're going to lie? you won't lie. you'll tell the fucking truth.

torture also has a secondary function, that is to terrorize the populace with whom you are at war. works great in that regard too. these are the reasons torture has been used in war since eternity.

>but muh yale studies!
eat my ass, those are politically motivated.

“The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognised that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile. The poor wretches say anything that comes into their mind and what they think the interrogator wishes to know.”

it can be useful as a tool in your interrogation arsenal, but having well qualified interrogators that know the psychology behind building rapport and using it to get information are just as necessary to the process.

tl;dr it's good for being what it is, but it's not the only part of interrogation .

The hardest part about enduring your "torture" is not letting on I'm enjoying it.

Of course it does regardless of what people want you to believe. We've been doing it for hundreds of years and have perfected it. If it didn't work, do you really believe we would just keep doing it knowing we are getting false information? Like said,real torture takes time. Sure, they might blurt out some bullshit and think they are going to be let free or mercy killed, but that's not how it works. Over many sessions you find patterns and will definitely get what you want.

This is totally different from actually torturing someone to gain info. When asking someone, you don't keep repeating "was the bomb maker Abdul mohhamed", you ask what was the bomb makers name. Even if you already know the bomb maker is abdul, you would never give info to the subject. So the only thing I "want to hear" is the bomb makers name. And after you give me a name, I'm going to try and verify that (after multiple sessions) and it's not like I'm going to let you go. You stay around usually held in stress positions around the clock until the information provided can be verified.

I just want to finish up with how I started. Just take the 21st century for example. We've been doing this type of shit for 16 years in the middle east alone. You will never come to understand the amount of info gained from different types of torture in this period alone. Some people watch too much movies and think you put someone's head in a vice and they tell you some bullshit and you shoot them. We have a long time to do think things over to get what we want. 21st century torture is light-years ahead of the type of shit we were doing 100 years ago.

Also this. I wished I used the word interrogation to describe the overall process.

>this nigger thinks we give two shits about muslims or niggers.

Let's stop teaching spooks to resist torture, since it obviously never works. Also, let's selfishly fuck over the rest of society so I can beat off to my morals

>It's 'enhanced' interrogation
Japs waterboard american pows in 1942 - REEE war crime torture execute them!
Amerifats waterboard someone - haha pussy can't trake little water not a torture!

I guess those Tokyo tribunal cases should be reviewed and those hanged japs rehabilitated, and their families paid compensation money by USA because they dindu nothing, just usual interrogations.

Does torture work what? It sure as Hell works in getting me hard