Universal Basic Income (UBI) provides food/shelter-

but not a sense of importance. And it's this sense of importance that gives us happiness- happiness comes from friendships, not possessions.

Poor Africans who have friends can be happy- whereas rich Americans without friends can't be happy.

...

stop posting UBI threads
there's like 3 already up
go back to your board

Yea, africans can be happy for like 16 years before they die to AIDS and 5 different diseases at once

Sigh....fucking white people and their ignorance....

FPBP

> stop posting UBI threads
I'm posting an unpopular opinion, about NEETS, on Sup Forums....
>there's like 3 already up
Doubt it. This is my first one. And I have never seen one on this board.

> go back to your board
I am here.

Some folks see purpose in their life in rich lands, some see it as pointless in poor ones. Suffering is an unavoidable aspect of human existence as is the fundamental emptiness of all endeavors. Live your life for money and you will regret that, live it purely for service of others and you will regret that too.

So, what? We going back to athenian style of work culture, only with robots now?

>implying that the big area wouldn't just get filled with Be a NEET

>America made Communism possible
lmao they also fought dictators just to have one afterwards

Yeah, because I'd totally be motivated to be a garbage man to improve myself and meet people.

If you took away the prime motivation, people wouldn't want to do their shitty jobs, and they'd just live lives of cheap hedonism paid for by people who actually want a better life

Are people going to collect garbage, roof houses, and fish in the arctic for self-improvement?

>if we just create some money out of ??????? and give it to people we will magically bypass the first rule of economics: "resources are scarce and will never be enough to fulfill everybody"

UBI is just high tech communism

...

>Are people going to collect garbage, roof houses, and fish in the arctic for self-improvement?
I am ANTI-ubi.

...I am anti-UBI...

Except that's not how humans work, money to live would only be replaced with enjoyment. When was the last time you saw anyone besides the maybe 10% outliers actually helping the community out of their own free will?

/thread

protip: people can do this now even while they are working, yet they do not.

you can buy a book (or use the internet) to learn fucking quantum mechanics if you really want to. people not working isn't going to magically make us any happier or allow us to use our time better.

So all of the fun jobs would be taken and all of the unfun but necessary jobs wouldn't be taken by anyone?

In that case your writing sucks leaf. Nobody understands your point.

>When was the last time you saw anyone besides the maybe 10% outliers actually helping the community out of their own free will?
When is the last time that you saw a black person doing charity...protip: never.

It doesn't work that way OP, humans do not function like that.

With out a need to work, humans would need to be forced to do something to obtain an income otherwise our existence collapses.

People wouldn't self improve, they would drink and not leave their houses.

Relationships would collapse even more than now, get bored with the novelty and move on.

If we get to the point where we do not need most people to work, than the remaining work would need to be spread around. People would have to attend something akin to a school constantly or be rotated through positions like police, military. People would need to be occupied with tasks like training or gardening or society will collapse.

>implying that this is how brains work

You're all retards

>Universal Basic Income (UBI) provides food/shelter- but not a sense of importance. And it's this sense of importance that gives us happiness.

Is it not clear, burger, that happiness is the goal of all human action?

I do NOT support UBI- my post CLEARLY states such.

your computer is free, no one spent time making it. Monitor, CPU, GPU, etc etc etc it's all about YOU. There was not one person involved in that. The food that you eat everyday, no one had to work for it, only you had to go to the market. Everything is free, you just need to think about every individual object in your room right now (no one involved in building your shelter, you see the only thing is that it costs money to live in) .

But you have one job, and it begets the products of a million men, the products with decades of history, that coke can you are drinking out of. No history, it's nothing. But you have to stalk shelves at target and you can get the products of many men's labor.

Why not have UBI? Why do things cost money? Everyone else should work but me, and once everyone is not working it will be good. If I am incompetent and only worth being a factory worker, then it is okay for me to not work, but I will enjoy the products that required factory workers. Actually they are more competent than you.

Not even a communist is as bad as you, you don't even understand that labor is required. But is labor anything to fawn over? Who will pay you to labor your car up and down the street by pushing? Labor is not inherently valuable. Why don't you carve a crap statue and see if anyone values it and pays you for it. People value what a factory worker does, but you are an artists, and you can carve a crap statue and people should value it because you put labor into it, so you should value a monitor that doesn't work, a slow CPU and GPU shouldn't you. In fact you should value a person making a CPU that doesn't know how to make CPUs but at least he labors hard at it, at least he tried. I am good at nothing but words, do you value my words OP? Send me over some bitcoins if you value my words. I expect payment for my practicing. If I get payment now I don't have to actually get good. I love UBI idea.

one word : automation.
wait... no, two words: Automation engineering.

I am ANTI-UBI. Only an American could be so daft as to misunderstand, and persistent and self-righteous to write a 100-word condemnation of a post they misunderstood.

>garbage
can easily be automated
>roof houses
there are better ways to make houses that wont require roofing anyway
>fish in arctic for self improvement
Yes, people will do this like people will climb mt everest, its a cool extreme thing to do.

How many jobs actually help the community?
Tell me, if nobody had to commute to work, how many road workers would be out of jobs because the roads need less maintenance? How many construction workers would not be needed because those office buildings never had to be built?

If we got rid of the easily automated jobs, it would domino effect and many other jobs would also be lost.

In the end it costs society more to maintain these circular job-loops than it would be to just pay unnecessary people to stay home.

I personally feel like basic income will be an inevitability but far off in the distant future when most stuff is automated and hardly requires human interaction. Simply working would put you into an elite status, otherwise you're just leeching off automation. People will probably try to get out of that stigma by trying to get into work.

Automated crap statues, I value automated machines creating soap carvings of no perceptible object. Just carve away, the automation is doing the labor with no one programming it to 3d print something that I value. Basically you can 3d print abstract art and I will value it because my mind is fucked.

I out so much labor in these words, you must value them.

>will be an inevitability but far off in the distant future
It is an inevitability. The timing is up for question. Im 33 and if i remember back to when i was 13 i see things that are literally mind blowingly futuristic science fiction going on today. So what seems like the far off future could be only decades away, or less. Of course they also predicted underwater bubble cities over a century ago now and we are still waiting.

You just dont know. What i do know is it would be advisable to switch to having the concept of UBI in place before it is absolutely required to prevent massive unrest.

I can't wait to be utterly worthless and rely on my government to hand me everything. What could possibly go wrong?

I am ANTI UBI. Americans confirmed FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE.

>worthless
many current jobs are worthless. People get paid to sit on facebook all day and pretend they are working while just a couple people in the office handle everything.

Those people hate the people on facebook. So why dont we just send them home so at least the workers have the whole office to themselves?

We honestly have to have a concept of UBI NOW to be honest. McDonalds pretty much replaced the need for cashiers with machinery. All that needs to happen is for robots to be able to make the burgers too. Self-driving cars are getting better at the moment, so that's what? Bus drivers, taxi drivers, probably insurance companies and fast food.
Oh, and Amazon has that thing where you can shop without having to deal with people, all they need are people to manage inventory, which can probably be automated too.

E q u a l l y - P o o r

Businesses that pay people $30,000 a year for providing, I don't know, say $5,000 a year of actual value to the company, go bankrupt. You have enough people who are providing less value than that of which you pay them, then it is a net loss and the company dies. You are worried about incompetence when the free market fixes it.

First, I am anti-UBI.

Second, shitLibs would rather be equally poor than unequally rich.

>You are worried about incompetence when the free market fixes it.
Great way to explain the free market to a projecting commie.

Resources are finite, desires are infinite. There will NEVER come a time where the world adapts Universal Income successfully. It will become top heavy and crash within a generation of its implementation.

What WILL happen is that the cost of things will get asymptotically closer to zero over time.

Thanks, and that is not my original ideas either, that is just how business is done. So I put no labor into it, yet it is valuable. Just restating the obvious can help people, this whole labor theory is rubbish.

Basic income in some form is the only reasonable way to avoid massive poverty caused by automation.

Unless wealth generated by automation is used to financially support workers displaced by automation it's just going to be a disaster.

Reminder that Universal Basic Income is a new scam from old communists

>Reminder that Universal Basic Income is a new scam from old communists
Is this not obvious...if not, then god help us.

What is going to happen when full automation takes over?

>Basic income in some form is the only reasonable way to avoid massive poverty caused by automation.

>>Increasing productivity
>>Mass starvation
>>Pick one.

Oh, also

>we need mass immigration to do the simple dirty jobs nobody wants

>we need universal basic income because robots will make obsolete all the simple dirty jobs and there will be mass unemployment

>What is going to happen when full automation takes over?
Humans will ALWAYS have use for other humans.

Its not incompetent to sit around messing with the internet and not work if you can get away with it but still get paid, its being smart.

You cant just fire people because unions and AA and quotas and its easier to just keep them on than deal with the hassle since in reality workers are getting paid next to nothing compared to what they do.

Adjusted for inflation the average wage has not increased at all in the last ~4 decades. Paying 5 people to do nothing and 2 people to do all the work is still probably cheaper than it would be to pay 2 people to do the work at 1950s wage standards.

How will they have use for them when advanced robots do it better?

the biggest challenge is going to be how will people find meaning once all the robots take over

Do you mean "size of government" to tax X% of all income?

What are you talking about. Firstly massive poverty ≠ mass starvation. Secondly, increased productivity from automation in areas unrelated to food would neither benefit nor hinder food production.

This is more the scenario I'm talking about
>Factory is automated
>Factory workers are fired
>Factory owner receives financial rewards from automation
>Workers now on food stamps

UBI is the opposite of communism. Communism solves this problem with centralized planning, capitalism solves this problem with UBI

If you dont understand this then you are a brainlet who thinks communism and socialism are the same thing and both of them are just 'free stuff and programs'

You could at least have the self-respect to admit that you provide nothing of value. You can be a loser and delude yourself by saying that it is the smart thing to do, but at least be conscientious about what you are doing. Being conscientious is being intelligent. Then you fucking change your ways.

Then:
>Almost nobody can afford his products
>Very few products sell
>Owner can either lower the price of said products to increase demand, or go bankrupt due to costs exceeding revenue.

Again, with increased automation, costs will asymptotically get closer to zero.

>capitalism solves this problem with UBI
You went full retard. Never go full retard.

>Owner can either lower the price of said products to increase demand
Owners will ALWAYS earn money because owners will never work for nearly-nothing.

I work at the local welfare office, getting gibs doesn't make someone more useful to society, it has the opposite effect. Their only solution to the worlds problems is giving THEM more money, which is why everyone on gibs votes left.

Meanwhile our local volunteer fire department only has 5 members and no one invented jetpacks yet.

>rich Americans without friends can't be happy

false, I'm much happier than most americans that have friends regardless of their wealth. friends are extremely overrated.

you would be happier with friends

Capitalism is two parties freely agreeing to exchange goods or services for currency. In what way is UBI capitalistic?

The owners rely on people exchanging money in exchange for the owner's product(s). If they do not have the money to exchange for said products, then the owner is not able to exchange products for said money.

Are you seeing the issue here? If he can produce a TV for 2 dollars thanks to automation, and tries to sell it for 200, but nobody can afford it due to not having high paying jobs, he'll lower his price until he can make the maximum profit, regardless of the number of units sold. If he can make more money selling the TVs for 3 dollars than he can selling the TVs for $3.01, you can bet your ass he'll be selling them for 3 dollars, and be making millions (albeit a single dollar at a time), while the poor get TVs for next to nothing.

You're the one insisting people are contributing because they have a job. The truth is many jobs only exist to support job loops and are entirely unnecessary. You can easily say that the people involved in any of these jobs are not actually contributing anything because the entire loop could be removed and nothing else would be affected.

UBI was literally first suggested by capitalists. Its the only way we can maintain the market as our societies decision making process for how we deal with our resources in a post-labor situation.

Thats the purpose of capitalism, and socialism, and all the other ones - allocating resources. Thats it. Money is just a resource transference mechanism, it doesnt do anything on its own, when you work you are essentially trading your labor for votes on how we spend our collective resources.

The market becomes a massive computer that 'decides' what to do with them based on the input from all the consumers.

The idea is that society as a whole, decentralized, is able to communicate, via their money (votes) what kinds of products they want societies collective resources turned into.

The alternative offered by communism would be a small group of centralized people trying to plan it out. Generally speaking this is not going to work better. It could theoretically work if you had a good enough computer analyzing things but honestly if its not broke dont fix it. Maybe in the future, but its not something that should be thought about now since we have a perfectly workable system that simply needs some minor modifications to carry us into post-labor.

I like to think of capitalism as WHAT FREE MEN DO.

>Thats the purpose of capitalism... - allocating resources
Nopes. Also, capitalism does not have a purpose.

>You're the one insisting people are contributing because they have a job. The truth is many jobs only exist to support job loops and are entirely unnecessary. You can easily say that the people involved in any of these jobs are not actually contributing anything because the entire loop could be removed and nothing else would be affected.

no it was like that before my mom put the turkey baster of sperm donated cum in her vagina. It has nothing to do with me.

I have no idea how what you typed contradicts anything that I said. Owners won't be owners for long unless people buy their products. Therefore, it behooves the owners to willingly sell the products at a price that people are willing to pay.

We cannot have both UBI and an uncontrolled border.

This is only possible when literally everything is automated. Imagine if over the next 5 years 25% of all jobs in America are automated. Trucking, telemarketing, cargo loaders, clerks of any kind, mining, automobile manufacturing, cashiers, to name a few.

We're not just going to snap into a state where those people can live the same lives they did before without a source of income.

jumping straight to the point where every aspect of life is automated and assuming perfect economic conditions ignores the process of automation.

We can't have UBI regardless of the border.

...

>happiness comes from friendships

If NEETs are able to socialize properly, they won't have any problem finding jobs.

SOON

>Therefore, it behooves the owners to willingly sell the products at a price that people are willing to pay.
The price/product will never be zero. And the owner will continue to earn more per hour of work.

>We can't have UBI regardless of the border.
We can't have non-white Americans (the majority of Americans) in North America. OUT OUT OUT!

Yes, but in each and every instance of what you're talking about, the overall costs will drop due to automation, making the jobs that are still available all the more affordable.

This is why everything that is left untouched by the government has been getting cheaper and cheaper.

>This is why everything that is left untouched by the government has been getting cheaper and cheaper.
inb4 "muh gov't had to intervene to stop sky rocketing prices"

Would it be monthly, and how much?

>making the jobs that are still available all the more affordable

But the problem here is the scarcity of available jobs.

Any pdfs you recommend?

It ensures everyone has currency to continue exchanging for goods and services, thus ensuring those goods have value. If nobody can pay for them they have no value unless you go outside of a capitalistic system. The desire to maintain the capitalistic system is therefore what drives UBI.

Realize that over the past we have gone from using certain rare items as currency, to using paper that represents those things as currency, which everyone thought was a terrible idea at first. To fractional reserve banking which would logically colapse if people ever really thought about it but society goes along with it so it doesnt, to fiat money, to the idea that debt itself can be traded and therefore lending someone money effectively just creates money out of thin air.

All of these things are a house of cards that should colapse, but they dont, because fundamentaly the moneys not and has never been, not even when it was solid gold coins, what had value. The value was always those goods and services. Money exists only as a hand wavy imaginary way for us to manage our resources as a society, it works and has worked through all those completly backwards concepts that should not work because it has to work because its what greases the wheels. Likewise UBI will work because with out it we need to come up with a totally new way to manage resources

Happiness comes from working towards a goal - having a purpose. People that say that with UBI we will be "free" are just lazy fucks that want a handout.

>Would it be monthly
Fuck off, and learn to budget.

How autistic are you?

how is learning quantum mechanics going to improve my life?

>The price/product will never be zero. And the owner will continue to earn more per hour of work.

Correct. The price/product will just always be moving ASYMPTOTICALLY closer to zero, which is all I ever claimed.

my ass. thats impossible.

>Correct. The price/product will just always be moving ASYMPTOTICALLY closer to zero, which is all I ever claimed.
Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Enough so you can have a house and a car, but not enough that you can get the new widest screen tv or the spinny rims for that car.

That is the carrot on the stick, if you want the spinny rims, you go work for them, which you can do through easily found work since with UBI there will be no need for minimum wage, companies can pay whatever people are willing to work for. Since with UBI there will be security, people wont need to worry about careers, they can just go out and do odd jobs again on the short term.

So you will get that car, and then go out job hunting and help someone landscape their lawn and buy those spinny rims.

There will be less need for government regulation since its not like people are being forced to work.

The economy will flourish

We can see it happening to everything that isn't touched by the government, even now.

Sure, there are certain exceptions, like the price of housing in areas that have high demand, but if you're poor, you really shouldn't be there anyways.

people naurally work towards a goal if left to their own devices

job does not equal work. Some jobs are work, some jobs are not work, and most works are not compensated for.

Thats talking about averages. Some people will contribute more than others.
If you average everything, UBI works! Some people contribute more than others

>like the price of housing in areas that have high demand
This is not the same type of product- it's supply is very low.

Well that's why you get competent people to do more complicated jobs, and the incompetent people do menial tasks. Literal retards are successful in the free market, they have to do very menial tasks though. If you suppose that everyone is equal, then you can have incompetent people way over their heads in a job that they cannot do well, such as with management.

Not where i live, housing prices keep going up and there are entire areas of newly built empty houses that have never been lived in.

retired businessman here. UBI would change humanity

so many advantages.

I believe in some oil rich arab country this was done

It's only fair that Gov shares wealth directly to people

>Literal retards are successful in the free market
A retard in the 20th century lives better than a King in the 18th century- THAT is the power of capitalism.