Muh personal responsibility

>muh personal responsibility
How the fuck do you promote this when you know full well free will is an illusion? Since free will/willpower doesn't exist, neither can personal responsibility. It's an illusory concept.

Other urls found in this thread:

mindhacks.com/2013/09/29/the-effect-of-diminished-belief-in-free-will/
plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Anyone that doesn't realize we don't have free wil is an incredibly huge fucking moron

Jew you have to go back.

you're right, I'll let a black guy fuck my wife, since I don't have a choice anyway

Then go on a killing spree if you think that no one is free. It should be easy since you're superior than everyone else.

Jesus christ. You're right. Now get over yourself. Stop getting trapped in the same mindset.

Contribute to your community. Create something. Be someone.

And don't kill innocents because of your own ideaology.

This free will bullshit will get solved when AI is polished.

So we're just robots following code (dna) then?

I have seen not one shred of hard evidence suggesting 'free will' exists. All I'm reading are meaningless platitudes.

These people obviously don't even know what's going on and don't have a clue as to what the lack of free will means.

explain it then faggot

It is literally impossible. Even if the universe isn't deterministic, we still don't have free will

>hurrrr if you don't have free will then why don't you become a cuck and shoot up walmart

If you can't see how this isn't an argument than this discussion is completely pointless

Free will is as philosophical concept is bunk. Free will as an emotion can exist. We justify personal responsibility on the basis of
1: we FEEL as though we have free will.
2:pragmatism

Prove it.

Just because we're influenced by our environment doesn't mean we can't make choices, that's ridiculous.

I agree that a lot of people are weak-willed and more suggestible to outside influence, but at the same time that doesn't imply anyone is obligated to look out for them

seems plausible to say that we are just biological creatures reacting to stimuli in our environments.

If free will were to not exist where would the deterministic blueprint come from?

Why do you think free will exists in the first place? And no, just because you react to stimuli doesn't mean you have free will

1: Libertarian free will is defined such that choices are totally free from any constraints.
2:People's choices are bound by human nature.
3:Therefore libertarian free will doesn't exist.

>If free will were to not exist where would the deterministic blueprint come from?

What

If you don't think it is, then be irresponsible. See how far you get in life. See how happy you are with yourself.

its obviously hyperbole but the core of the issue could be summed up as

"if i don't have free will why should i care to try and altar predetermined events?"

Because to know that and do it anyway is perhaps the only real choice you will ever make.

So will you fight or will you die like a dog?

I have the free will to comment your thread and let you know you're a faggot.

>"if i don't have free will why should i care to try and altar predetermined events?"

Because you're a human with human emotions who will do it anyway and because our entire society is built on the idea that free will exists

If events are predetermined, what is the basis for the predetermined outcomes?

You don't though, you were determined to respond to it, as I was determined to reply to your post.

>appeal to emotion fallacy
You understand why that won't convince anyone right?

Causality. If you understand the cause, you can determine the effect ahead of time. This makes things predetermined.

So it would be more logical to override your emotion to whatever extent possible and just let things happen around you?

ITs not an appeal to emotion. It's just the way it is.

>If events are predetermined, what is the basis for the predetermined outcomes?

What does this sentence even mean

OP, free will is not so black-and-white. People are neither completely free nor not free, but somewhere in between.

Some people have more free will than others. It depends largely on the environment and particular genetics.

Everybody has natural tendencies that dictate their actions, but that's still more free than also being dictated by other people.

A lack of free will doesn't mean you start acting differently. You've lacked free will your entire life.

Appeal to emotion is only a fallacy when one tries to establish truth. "The sun sets in the east because my gut tells me so" is a fallacy. Appeals to emotions isn't a fallacy when you describe your motive for doing something. "I kissed her because she was beautiful" is perfectly reasonable, despite being a so called "emotional reason"

>free will
>an illusion

I'm not about to have a 2 hour debate about the nature of truth with you, fuck off.

Coming to that realisation does however.

So that natural selection eliminates those incapable of fending for themselves

Why do you even go to Sup Forums? This is the greatest philosophical arena of all times, the greeks would do nothing but shitpost here all day if it existed in their time.

I guess it could, but I'd bet you'll keep living your life the way you always have

even if actions are taken with specific intent from the outset the effect may change due to a myriad of factors.

Your use of 'predetermined' seems different that most.

Nope.

mindhacks.com/2013/09/29/the-effect-of-diminished-belief-in-free-will/

It basically turns you into a prick.

I'm not talking about the final cause, only the material cause.

How would this decision be pre-determined?
I could ignore you, but you blew my mind I could potentially change my life.

Sadly I'm on here 8+ hours a day.

I was referring to the Sam Harris and Jordan B Peterson debate that got derailed over the nature of truth. Free will is not an illusion and we can't even get to the stated topic until we hash out what the hell OP means and why he believes in a deterministic universe, and frankly it's my bed time.

What would cause the material cause to be the same every time in all circumstances?

Sweet dreams m8. I'm going to bed as well.

Because the motion of the universe is governed by unbreakable rules. If you were to somehow re-wind time and "play" it again it would play out in exactly the same way.

The act of blowing someone's mind doesn't require free will

Free will doesn't exist, ergo I can't choose NOT to argue for personal responsibility. You also can't choose not to make this thread.

holy shit literal jew pushing for crumbling society color me surprised.

neurologists have known for years that free will is an illusion, but i specifically remember reading an article or something that went over the implications for society if the fact becomes widely known and accepted. think the current degeneracy and debauchery x10.

so again i say, color me surprised that the jew is peddling this knowledge.

>when you know full well free will is an illusion?

S O R T

Free will does exist, your consciousness is a line of code that can literally act according to the information around you or in spite of it.

Go ahead, do something completely retarded and nonsensical and prove your free will. Do it.

>pushing for crumbling society color me surprised.
There is no need for one to get all caught up in determinism and let it be a detriment to your life.

What are the unbreakable rules? How do you know that they are absolutely unbreakable?

Seems like we lack the information to make such absolute claims.

>not realizing that in a predetermined universe there must be a determining, guiding force.
>if there is then we don't know shit about the universe or free will for that matter.

atheist cucks

What we call Physics.

>do something completely retarded and nonsensical and prove your free will

Doing that doesn't prove you have free will

I wonder if they grow out of it

>free will doesn't exist

>implying you don't have a choice of whether to believe that or not

>implying people who believe in predetermination aren't all defeatist cucks who never applied themselves

But the subsequent life change would be.
The lack of free will implies a deterministic universe. How do you predetermine this response?

I think you don't have free will.

Not everyone, just plebs.

This doesn't actually seem to be the case though. Quantum level events are not deterministic, they are probabilistic. Even with perfect information, you'll only know what 50% of the time A happens and 50% of the time B happens, and any given run through can NOT be perfectly predicted.

God does play dice.

I understand what you're saying, but we both know full well that the "mainstream" can't do that. People eat shit right up if it comes from Faux or the Commy news network.

While we might know better than to start living any differently, most people I don't think would.

>Physics
>The ability to make absolute claims
>Physics not inductive

We have nowhere near a complete understanding of physics. The models that we use don't even work universally. Try using Newtonian physics on a massive or microscopic scale and you would see any accuracy eroded.

According to classical physics, the entire future of the universe can be accurately predicted if we had an exact model of every atom at this particular moment. According to Quantum mechanics, the universe diverges every time an atomic superposition decoheres and an atom is spinning left or right or in whichever oribtal the electron is instead of all simultaneously. So its not free will or determinism, its Einstein or Heisenberg.

>But the subsequent life change would be.
Would be what? Are you saying it would require free will to change? Once something gets pointed in a direction it will move in that direction until influenced to do otherwise

>How do you predetermine this response?
What.
The response is determined by the things leading up to the response

I don't understand OPs point, someone elaborate? Why would I not have free will? What even is OPs argument to prove or even make it sound likely that the universe is predeterminated?

This

Free will exists, you mong. Why would God create a world where even the illusion of free will exists if he wasn't going to voluntarily eschew his omniscience just to see what the apes do with it? Alternatively, your free will is truly free, but the universe has already all happened from God's perspective, yet you experience it in "normal" time, just like characters in a book could be said to experience time even though the book was written centuries ago. Basically, you're using your free will to whine that free will doesn't exist, you retard.

That still doesn't mean we have free will though.

are you being deliberately retarded? where's that jewish iq?

>deterministic universe

this hasn't been proven though, all rules of physics break apart on both the macro (multiple forces competing) and quantum scales (probability based).

Even if the human mind can merely "randomize" that essentially goes against the deterministic assumption.

It's not something you can calculate, you can be your own X factor, act against the grain, and do whatever the fuck you want.

OP is saying that you don't have free will, thus, you shouldn't do anything -- i.e. exercise your free will to do nothing.

Or don't; do something? Exercise that free will that doesn't exist.

Do something, do nothing -- OP just winds up with tautology.

Completion of our understanding notwithstanding, it would appear as far as we are aware, that two colliding objects will always react in a predictable fashion.

yes it does you stupid idiot.

it means the future isn't set and thus your actions can't be predicted by anyone except yourself.

Deterministic universe or not, doesn't change the fact that we don't have free will.

this concept breaks apart entirely on the macro scale

there are simply too many forces competing to rationalize a predictable result.

lots of shit in outer space makes no sense and "shouldn't exist"

Collide an atom with something that causes a shift in rotational spin. Check it immediately after and it will almost never change direction of spin. Check in momentarily after and it will very likely have shifted direction of spin. The observer affect or Quantum Zeno affect negates determinism

>it means the future isn't set and thus your actions can't be predicted by anyone except yourself.

Just because something isn't predictable does not mean you have the power to control the outcome.

i get how things being random goes against determinism, but how does that prove free will? something random still isn't subject to free will. it would argue for nihilism in that case.

my position is that it doesn't matter anyway. free will exists within whatever else there is, whether it's random or predetermined doesn't matter. the human mind exists to be able to choose, it should choose the right thing and be faulted for chosing the wrong thing regardless of whether that's preordained.

what's your definition of free will?

If you do not have free will it follows that humans exist in a deterministic environment.

>implying this is /lit/
>implying this really makes anyone here think
sage

>shouldn't exist

And yet here it is. There is no should or shouldn't about it.

You know that inductively.

Thus you cannot know it universally.

1. I live in Aus. and have seen all swans are black

c. Swans are black -(Wrong some swans are white)

Newtonian physics was shown to be merely approximations masquerading as accurate predictions yet it was held as doctrine for generations.

because you couldn't prove it otherwise

if you, scientifically, can't trace the action to anything concrete and it seemingly occurred randomly - then the only determining factor was the WILL of the actor.

Thus, "free will"

Spoken like someone who has a loose understanding of physics. I would encourage you to take a calculus based physics course at uni.

Now THAT really makes you think.

Even if you take the premise that free will doesn't exist, in that our actions are predetermined by a mechanistic brain, you can still judge an individual by their actions as they are only their brain and body. You are just shifting the judgement from the soul to the body, nothing really changes morally.

Let's say something is random, that doesn't mean you automatically have control of it. Your lack of free will is not caused by determinism or lack there of

the math has variables, you can predict things to an extent but the variables, being unknowable, act as an infinite barrier between what can and cannot be understood. The larger the scale of the phenomenon, the more variables.

plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

See

>Implying morality does not require the ability to do otherwise.

Atheism sure does lead you down even deeper holes filled with manure. Why do you want to cause this trauma to yourself when you obviously aren't ready to handle the truth of whether we are free or not? If you truly wanted to know what's going on and didn't rely on (((neurosurgeons))) telling you
>from this brainwave scan we've learned that you're not actually making decisions and it's all chemicals reacting LOL you have no free will
then God would throw some wisdom and understanding your way. Or better yet, try actually asking your Heavenly Father for some wisdom on the subject! If you're actually researching this and not just watching a single YouTube video and then clicking on the first Google link and being satisfied with your limited understanding of free will and conscience, then you will be led to some interesting sites and other materials and knowledge. Try it, otherwise you're too scared to have your viewpoint challenged, or you will not humble yourself to actually talk your Creator.

There is free will. There's nothing stopping you from buying a gun and changing history.

Something being predictable or unpredictable doesn't give or take away free will. You will lack it whatever the case may be

We can change this "randomness" to very high or low probabilistic events through our "free will" to "observe" these unstable isotopes at certain intervals.

>Free will changes the physical makeup of the universe.

Actions that go against a societal norm doesn't prove or disprove free will.

The starting conditions of the universe, duh. Just look at literally any simulation that repeats itself over and over again with the same consequences.

It's a "our actions don't have consequences if we aren't free" episode all over again. The real question is if there is an objective moral standard on which to base our actions considering that we have very little (if any) control over them. (If you doubt this, then research Stanley Milgrim and his experiments on conditioning.) A Clockwork Orange is another good reference for this topic. Even if Alex couldn't control himself it's hard to argue he wasn't a terrible human being.

Deffo

nice digits, and a good post.

as it relates to free will - I think too many people underestimate the power an idea can have. Just look around you, everything in the room you're in started as a thought in someone's head - a form made of nothing but data, and the data became a reality.

Similarly, I believe that the CONCEPT of free will, when central to a person's mind, does ultimately come to fruition in their actions.

Basically free will exists when you want it to exist - in the same way that cars exist only when someone dreams of them and builds them.

humans are not fully conscious of themselves