Should there even be an "international language" ?

should there even be an "international language" ?

language is very cultural. to be able to speak the language properly means to feel attached to the culture.

nowadays it's an obligation in almost every non western country to learn english, and those who are so good at speaking english always have the least attachment to their own countries. they're always so western and probably would leave their countries behind. that policy is so killing local culture.

the brilliant guys who aren't good at english will always be left behind.

what do you think ? in an ideal world, should everyone learn "international language" ?

English already won, so there's no use thinking about it.

However, it's pretty much a fact that the languages you know and use regularly quite literally influence how you think, so I think people are perfectly justified in thinking that the spread of English could be doing harm to their cultures.

I'm glad I'm not on the receiving end of that bullshit.

>English already won
won what ? maybe there shouldn't be such thing as that. maybe the 'competition' shouldn't exist, maybe the urgency to be international shouldn't exist. maybe the need to be able to communicate with foreigners shouldn't exist.

>the languages you know and use regularly quite literally influence how you think

i think to actually be good at learning it, you should first be attracted to the culture. German sounds like shit to me and i have to desire to learn it at all. the culture is not attractive either, nothing impresses me in the culture. to be good at expressing yourself in english, means you already have that western mindset in you.

why should countries even trade ? there shouldn't be competition, i shouldn't be seeing you pigs in my country.

Congratulations, you learned one of the key cornerstones of nationalism.

idk, not that i would like living in a ultranationalist indonesia, i'm pretty libertarian, but i just think that the ideal world shouldn't be internationalistic.

English is the most widely spoken language in the world by a pretty substantial margin. It is the most common language in international politics, business, etc. You're even speaking English right now to other people from other countries on a Mongolian noodle-making hobbyist forum.

Where I live, most normies barely know enough English to ask for directions. It's silly to say that there is some cultural taint in that, they'd need to be very fluent in English for that to happen.
I think that existence of a language that everyone knows enough to communicate on a very basic level is useful.

yeah i know that. but should that even happened in the first place ? should there be a need to be internationalistic at all ?

but here in southeast asia, english fluency is a big plus. like, fuck that, why should we need internationalism so bad ?

>I think that existence of a language that everyone knows enough to communicate on a very basic level is useful.
if you come to indonesia you better be prepared to speak the language. if you're not coming to indonesia then there's no reason for us to be communicating. vice versa in czech rep.

People have developed international languages in the past that were supposed to be easy to earn. Esperanto is a good example. Outside of a select niche it never caught on though. Pretty sure there are at least a million speakers worldwide.

that pic is deep.
Just like my dick in your ass.

google voice translator will be good enough in 5-10 years that learning a language will be a waste of time.

I think there should be, yes. It's already compulsory here to learn a foreign language for everyone, so they may as well take the extra step and make sure everyone knows English instead of some retarded bullshit langauge no-one speaks. I mean, what's more logical, make sure everyone learns the same extra language so literally anyone can communicate with anyone, or make them learn different shit and hope they come across someone who happens to speak the same language? Also, English is considerably easier than many other languages such as German.

Everybody here speaks good English, and most of us are nationalist

If your language defines your culture, you have no culture.

why should we learn it though ? why should internationalism even exist ?

but for what purpose ? and was the purpose out of urgency/emergency ? like, was internationalism really urgently needed ? do you guys actually need our rice so badly ?

I guess it is not needed exactly, but closing yourself off to any and all foreign influences doesn't seem beneficial to me at all. If you plan to live in a foreign country, then yes, learning the language is expected, however you can't possibly demand from a tourist to learn Indonesian because he's planning to spend a week there. It's just convenient to speak English.

i don't think most of us non english speakers are true nationalists though. i think we're just angry and insecure. the real nationalists refuse to speak another language.

i know i don't. i don't feel attached to any culture. my argument was very neutral from any 'tendencies', like i don't agree with ultranationalistic authoritarianism, but i think in the ideal world it should happen but i don't think i'm ready for it.

Communication is key in business though and most countries rely on importing or exporting goods internationally. It would make it easier if everyone spoke the same language.

>he doesn't speak (((Esperanto)))

>why should internationalism even exist ?
Mostly because technology. If you want to keep up with technological progress, you must keep up with shit invented in other countries. What happens if you don't keep up with other countries? Your citizens will leave your country for countries with better standards of living (doctors leaving Hungary for countries where they get paid more is a huge problem here, for example). Also, if others have more advanced military technology then you are basically at their mercy. Also, trading is economically beneficial, and in the case of some natural resources, necessary, because they are simply not available in large enough quantities in your country.

There already is, it's called telepathy.

>but closing yourself off to any and all foreign influences doesn't seem beneficial to me at all
doesn't mean it's disadvantageous. internationalism could bury the local culture down, because there would be a need to compete, and the best weapon to win is to be good at speaking the language.

often, internationalism always translates to 'the western game', so the whole world is competing to be the best in western standard. now of course no one would top western countries in that game, and non western countries should sacrifice their cultures, which will end up in them not winning anyway. this is such a mess. i think i will start my own youtube channel, talking about this matter and i hope i could wake some of my folks up. this should stop. the west is winning because they're being themselves.

we can't lose again.

I actually wish English wasn't the current lingua franca. If we had an incomprehensible tongue, perhaps perhaps just a few of the brown fucks from the four corners of the world might decide not to come here.

>what do you think ? in an ideal world, should everyone learn "international language" ?
If you have a better idea to communicate that doesn't implies learning 120 languages no it isn't

but why should countries need foreign commodities ? you already lived long enough in your land to be adapted with the current natural commodities. like, you don't need rice because you don't eat them, you don't eat them because for thousand years you live without them. there shouldn't be a pressure to accomodate foreign issues/needs.

> If you want to keep up with technological progress
this is where it went wrong. no one should be pressured to want that shit. you don't have the urgency to keep up with eastern shit, right ? why should we though ? see, the root of all these is insecurity and inferiority complex.

>Your citizens will leave your country for countries with better standards of living
just because something looks different doesn't mean it's better. remember, girls who are attracted to men that looks nothing like her always have personal issues (maybe self hatred or low self esteem, idk). if they leave, they shouldn't be allowed to come back.

>in the case of some natural resources, necessary
you've lived for thousands of years in your land, so you must have accustomed to the local commodities. if you need more than you have in your lands, it's not really a 'need', you're just being tricked to internationalistic hedonism.

there shouldn't even be international trades.

if you're not coming into my country, i don't have reason to communicate with you

Modernism should have a parachute.

>if you're not coming into my country, i don't have reason to communicate with you
Yet you just did

I dunno, Singapore. You typed that post in a language that isn't your native language. You tell me.

It's not need it's want, citizens want an iphone or a car from Germany so the government ensures they have these things. It will not change anytime soon so better to adapt than resist.

R A R E
T
H
I
C
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>this is where it went wrong. no one should be pressured to want that shit
Though morally you're right countries aren't usually 100% self-reliant, if you don't keep up with technology it makes it considerably harder to import and export stuff

well i'm a bad example, i'm not saying i WANT the ideal world that i proposed. for example, now, i don't feel attached to any culture. and i hate my own culture, i hate my religion.

internet sure is the world's biggest mistake. in the past, some folks in chinese dynasty didn't want english stuffs and that's how ideal society looks like

maybe there shouldn't be import and export. internationalistic hedonism shouldn't be celebrated

China is very Western orientated now though. It started with their one world policy.

Fuck you.
1. Each language carries it's own
A E S T H E T I C S
that cannot be translated (i.e. puns, poetry, &c.)
2. Most importantly, language changes the way one perceives the world, almost like a metaideology. Linguistic determinism establishes the limits of what someone can think, and the structures in languages lend towards certain worldviews (i.e. Japanese being subtle and the japs following suit; Russians always being socially awkward with English; and a bunch of other highly specific stuff)

>should there even be an "international language" ?
yes. and it shouldnt be a natural language for several reasons (culturally biased, hard to learn, riddled with inconsistencies etc)

>language is very cultural. to be able to speak the language properly means to feel attached to the culture.
conlangs are culturally agnostic

>this is where it went wrong. no one should be pressured to want that shit. you don't have the urgency to keep up with eastern shit, right ? why should we though ? see, the root of all these is insecurity and inferiority complex.
It's not insecurity and inferiority complex. Having cars and electricity is better than not having them, that is why people gave a shit about those things when they were invented in the first place. It is also better when your kids don't get polio or don't die of fucking whooping cough. Technology isn't just inane shit like the latest iphone or a gay kickstarter gadget, it's things that actually reduce human suffering and make the quality of people's life better, like medicine and labour saving devices.
>you've lived for thousands of years in your land,
We have also been invaded a couple of times and there was this thing called the black plague in Europe, so we know the importance of medicine and a good military.
> so you must have accustomed to the local commodities.
Trading natural resources makes a lot of sense because a country may have more of one thing than they need, while another may have less of that same thing.
>just because something looks different doesn't mean it's better
Getting more money, or just enough money to sustain yourself for a stressful job like a doctor sure as hell seems objectively better to me.

well yeah,now. but i was talking about the very old china.

1. yes, and i don't see why i should learn english puns and poetries.

2. why does it matter ? how does it help someone work faster or more effectively for more money for the family ? i think you're obsessed to be better and better intellectually, when none of that shit impress anyone in real life. i believe you're a virgin. don't worry, me too. i'm pretty mysoginistic too

Yes, of course, as long as you retain your own language.

The fact that English is spoken more-or-less across the globe has been of great benefit to us all. We wouldn't be here talking about it otherwise.

1. An international language could replace art in local languages.
2. An international language would implicitly subvert people to the ideologies it lends itself to which could include epicureanism, statism, victim complexes, &c. The world isn't just business and money; hell that's it's own ideology.

Globalism will win while America is the only superpower. Sooner or later you'll all be ordering your super sized Big Mac meals in English and you'll fucking like it. Get used to the idea.

"Americanism not globalism will be our credo"

>and those who are so good at speaking english always have the least attachment to their own countries. they're always so western and probably would leave their countries behind. that policy is so killing local culture.
Fucking hell I know that feel. I've come to a point where I care more for American politics than my own country's politics.

that is a simplistic view. if you meet a woman from another country are you only going to communicate via a dongle? the way a person uses language to express themself and their personality isn't by using perfect grammar from a textbook, but by using their language in their way.

google translate has been helpful to me learning chinese, but the way i speak chinese is different to how my (also english native speaking) friends speak it.

translation misses out the nuance that knowledge brings. for example: 好牛, hao niu, is literally good & cow, but spoken it means "so/very niubi", niubi means cow cunt and is slang for something cool. so hao niu could be translated as "cool as fuck". how would that work in a the translation tool? easy to understand if you know the language.

I think I should learn Russian.
My grandmother that died before I was born was Russian.
When I hear the language, it illicit strong feelings, despite knowing no one who speaks it personally. It feels like home.

In fact, I'm going to find somewhere to start right now. Not tomoorow. Now.

your native language, Bahasa Indonesia, is a constructed language (bastardised Malay), which was enforced throughout the archipelago.

If you think having a lingua franca of some sort for the whole world is a terrible idea, what makes having a lingua franca on a national level a good idea?

Because the race for the highest office in your country is smaller than the highest office in my city.

To be American isn't about race. It's about being willing to fight, to stand, and to offer help to those who need it, but also knowing you have to take care of your own first.

If you want to be American, you just have to be American.

>Having cars and electricity is better than not having them
>it's things that actually reduce human suffering and make the quality of people's life better, like medicine and labour saving devices.
and these things are relative. these things were invented in societies that had the need for it. indonesians didn't need cars until the government built the country with the inspirations from looking at western countries. if countries stay isolated, they would have invented their own way to satisfy their unique needs. now everyone just looks the same.

>We have also been invaded a couple of times and there was this thing called the black plague in Europe, so we know the importance of medicine and a good military.
travelling is never necessary. explorers are criminals. it should not have happened.

>Trading natural resources makes a lot of sense because a country may have more of one thing than they need, while another may have less of that same thing.
look, if those stuffs never grown in your land, then the need for it is not justified. because you never really needed it.

>Getting more money, or just enough money to sustain yourself for a stressful job like a doctor sure as hell seems objectively better to me.
back then you couldn't compare your country with other countries. you just focused on fixing your unique problems and imbalances. that sounds good to me. of course people should be allowed to move out, but doesn't mean the country should be pressured to be like other countries

>to us all
to you only. and please follow the thread, i don't WANT to live in the ideal world that i proposed. if you're not coming into my country, there shouldn't be a reason for us to be communicating.

1. every language has their own artistic values. that's enough. art is also cultural. polyculturalism shouldn't be celebrated
2. those philosophy school of thought are relative. cultures developed their own, accustomed to their history and habit

Duolingo is easy to get into for a first try

well i hope they imported more of those bombers into your country.

the success of a country start with being happy with being themselves, with no pressure to be more like someone else.

>It's about being willing to fight, to stand, and to offer help to those who need it
that's like, everyone. not just america.

see, you are not wrong. you're just not aware that if you want to be consistent with that view, you need to let Papua & Aceh be independent. they don't want to be Indonesian. why do we pressure them to be one?

>if countries stay isolated, they would have invented their own way to satisfy their unique needs.
I'm pretty sure high-speed transport is a universal human need, and there are not many ways to satisfy it because of the laws of physics.
>travelling is never necessary. explorers are criminals. it should not have happened.
Well gee I guess if the invading hordes show up at the borders of an underdeveloped country, they'll just tell them they are being criminals and the invaders will just leave them alone. And diseases are not always brought in from external sources, after all, they have to start somewhere, don't they?
>if those stuffs never grown in your land, then the need for it is not justified. because you never really needed it.
The default state of existence is suffering, because nature is cruel. You have to constantly fight nature for food and water and hope you won't get a disease from it, and hope that enough of your children will survive for your country not to die out.
>back then you couldn't compare your country with other countries
Keeping people in darkness about the world is anti-freedom. It's what north korea does and it's what communists did in Europe not that long ago.
>you just focused on fixing your unique problems and imbalances
And then people realised that collaborating with other countries somehow helped them solve their unique problems.

I know that my country is irrelevant so no need to rub it, even though now interesting shit is going on here now

>tfw you wish to have the freedoms of the American citizens but also don't want to see your country get fucked by the Turks
fuck

Whats happening in Cyprus?

>the languages you know and use regularly quite literally influence how you think
>Unironically taking the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis seriously
Thought takes place at a much lower level than conscious verbal communication.

Annan plan 2.0

>Annan plan 2.0
So you think this will cause shit between Turkey and Greece again?

and i support that. i personally want each nusantaran cultures to be separated. negara jogja, negara jawa timur, etc. "indonesia" means the whole country should agree with being similar, that's what nationalism is. nationalist countries are always monoethnic. i don't think indonesia should embrace nationalism, and each states should have more freedom to be whatever they want according to their ethnic values. there shouldn't be 'national values'.

>I'm pretty sure high-speed transport is a universal human need
and countries would figure their own way out to solve their problems. problems are unique, it should be. the way north koreans sell and serve street food is different from western people, they have their own way that was generated from their own minds.

>Well gee I guess if the invading hordes show up at the borders of an underdeveloped country, they'll just tell them they are being criminals and the invaders will just leave them alone. And diseases are not always brought in from external sources, after all, they have to start somewhere, don't they?
invaders are unjust. travelling is morally unjustified. i don't mind being sick to death, as long as i don't have to be below you in my own land.

>The default state of existence is suffering, because nature is cruel. You have to constantly fight nature for food and water and hope you won't get a disease from it, and hope that enough of your children will survive for your country not to die out.
societies will always figure their way out. we're all humans, we learn.

>Keeping people in darkness about the world is anti-freedom. It's what north korea does and it's what communists did in Europe not that long ago.
no, people should be free to come and go. but the country shouldn't accomodate internationalistic hedonism. if you come here, you better be prepared to speak indonesian. vice versa. and the whole world should accomodate international needs

>And then people realised that collaborating with other countries somehow helped them solve their unique problems.
they can't. architects can't help chefs solve kitchen problems.

Greece and Turkey are already sperging out over their borders in the Aegean so not necessarily.

Most people suck balls at english and it will probably remain like that until we have universal translator communications devices allowing us to not really think about, probably in the 20 next years for european language and a bit more for the asian ones.

US cultural production (aka Hollywood and nigger music) is much more toxic than the language itself.

>well i hope they imported more of those bombers into your country

Aw, don't be like that future fellow burger. It'll be your country soon too.

>speaking traitornese

Burgers not kebab, ok praise America

Well most kebab shops do burgers so win?

Vietnam has a Mcdonalds, so we always win in the end

Honestly English is the best choice for a universal language, and not just because I speak it, but because the language itself is already a mash up and complete bastardization of so many different languages, that it would seem redundant to create totally new one.

It's also much easier to learn than most languages and doesnt sound subhuman like Spanish

i hope you have the patience to follow the thread

so i'm guessing you don't want foreign penetration in your country but you like american penetration in other countries ?

>i like sticking my dick in things but not getting dicked
Yes

>brilliant guys
>who aren't good at english
Choose one, brilliant guys learn english even just by getting exposed to it.
Almost all STEM and highly intellectual books are written in english, if you don't know english you can't read them and therefore you can't be extremely brilliant.
A person who loves knowledge would eventually try to understand it, like a kid who loves a tv show or game in a foreign language will try to watch or play it anyway and one step at a time eventually learn the mechanics.

why does cultural penetration feel good for you ? pride is one of the seven sins, right ?

>do you guys actually need our rice so badly ?
I eat almost as much rice as I eat potatoes but I could live without it. Rather than need rice, I just want to have it at least once a week.
It would be unfortunate if all rice exporters stopped exporting it..

english won, that's why everyone speaks it. in a way that means everyone absorbs a certain amount of the english worldview into their culture. this is inevitable it was the same for rome.

>STEM and highly intellectual books
this shouldn't be a need in societies where STEM wasn't invented. things like that should be invented out of need. and countries should solve their own unique needs. countries have similar needs because governments built the countries with inspirations from looking at other countries. the only regulation needed should be 'not accomodating internationalistic hedonism'.

Yes, also an international religion and an internationally followed Law system + a one world government.

In sha´allah

No. Language is deeply rooted in culture. We need it to maintain nations. We're fighting against globalization here...

I love a snackbar

idk much about finland culture, but if you have rice in your land, it'll be logical for you to need rice. if rice was never common in your country, then your 'need' for rice is unjustified. if you need something that your country never had, then the country shouldn't accomodate that need

I personally dont care, im glad people speak English instead of monkey, but its important to keep native languages alive. My Mcdonalds joke was basically saying we won Vietnam in the end

Like I wrote in my post, I 'want' rice, not 'need'. Having more options when deciding what to eat is a luxury I would rather not live without but it's not the end of the world if I can't buy rice anymore.

But we import anything of value or interest from every corner of the globe.

I eat Thai, Japanese, Greek, Indian each at least once a week. Mexican at least twice. All made by people from those countries.
In my building, there are people from 20 countries. Fortunately they're mostly business people so they don't stink up the place.
My grandmother's neighborhood is 1/4 SE Asian, 1/6 African and 1/3 Hispanic.
When I was a kid, it was 90% white and of the countries listed earlier, only the Greek restaurant existed back then.
Plenty of Italians, but they're white by our standard.

then go to asia, buy rice, bring back home

vietnam and iraq was a big fat mistake, you sinner

the fact that countries can be interested in other countries' core cultural commodities is just sad. it should have never happened. soon this world will only have one culture one language. the key to being internationally valuable is to be the least attached to your own culture.

>goyim can speak this new language I made.
>goyim keeps his culture and happyness.

Choose one.

>pay hundreds of euros for flights and be suspected for terrorism because you want to eat rice a couple times every month
Western countries may seem rich compared to yours but the average citizen doesn't have the time and money for that shit. I'll just keep buying from the same shop I've been buying my rice from.

nah

Its true that people who are really skillfull in another language have a bigger chance to care little about their own culture but on the other hand if i didnt knew english i probably would be alot more stupid than i already am
Its really hard to have an entertaining conversation with someone who only knows one language since they only have one perspective of things and hardly ever reflect on them
If even i can notice these things an actual smart person must feel really frustated

>but on the other hand if i didnt knew english i probably would be alot more stupid than i already am
maybe because you get knowledge from the same platform as where you get entertainment. learning english written is more exciting than israeli written or icelandic written when you like hollywood movies and american music a lot.

>learning english written
i meant english written philosophy

It is called lingua franca. Back in Jesus times it was Greek, then Latin and Greek, then Latin, then French, then English. Now the main ones are: 1) English; 2)Spanish; 3) Chinese; 4) Hindi; 5) Arabic; 6) French; 7) Russian; 8) Portuguese; 9) German; 10) Shwalli (sic).

"Should" has no place in conversations of language. Language is simply what abstract sounds are understood by whom to mean what. Language will be what it will be.

It's called English.

esperanto (as an example) was designed to be a universal SECOND language, retard

the status quo is: everyone has their native language and also needs to learn english
the better alternative: everyone has their native language and learns esperanto, which is WAY easier to learn and doesnt come from anglo imperialism

just kys honestly