Everything you say, think, or do is a result of neurons firing in your brain. Therefore free will is a lie

Everything you say, think, or do is a result of neurons firing in your brain. Therefore free will is a lie.

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we don't really understand the brain fully yet so acting as if you have free will, believing you have it or not, it doesn't make a difference in the slightest. unless you want to have 900 page fedora discussions on the internet that is.

Deterministic masterrace reporting

who cares

So you were destined to become a faggot?

Amerifats btfo

philosophical determinism is the most destructive philosophy there is, mostly because people naturally draw incorrect conclusions
It's still the truth, but it really doesn't have that many ramifications as one would think

Free will and the (possibly false) belief that you have free will makes no difference. It does not change anything in the end.

Nature operates in mysterious ways, quantum mechanics casts doubt on your belief that there can be no free will

Hypocrite that you are, for you let the chemicals in your brain tell you that they are chemicals

My actions rewire neurons in my brain.Therefore free will is not a lie.

we control which neurons we use. and what we do with the body attached to it... free will

K, so? Who cares? It doesn't change anything.

Compatibilist master race reporting in. Determinism wouldn't preclude free will.

>Everything you say, think, or do is a result of neurons firing in your brain.

citation fucking needed.

Nobody believes in free will, faggot. When people say "free will", its synonymous with the idea of limited agency and "nobody else has more control over your behavior than you yourself."

Consciousness doesn't come from your think-meat. That feeling of I-am-ness comes from somewhere else. The neurons firing in your brain are just like ripples in a pond after you throw in a rock. A result of an outside stimulus. except the pond is 5th dimensional, and the rock is Nth dimensional.

everybody believes in free will, even those who say they don't.

>my actions are not a product of my mind

lolsorandumb xD

You are a product of your genes as well as your environment.

Because of this, your decisions are actually very predictable, and yes in some regards you are right.

People believe they have all the choices at their disposal, but the cold hard truth is that they will usually make one decision repeatedly.

It's not a comfortable thing for some people to admit or see.

It's not even that macroscopic
Since everything that happens or has happened is a consequence of something else, and since there is only one outcome when you consider all the variables in a system, the answer is already written in the equation itself

If this was not the case, you could take a random experiment, repeat it a million times identically, meaning every little thing is the same, and you'd get different results
This is obviously preposterous and illogical

Free will is just determinism, so technically, no.. you do not have "free will." You have choice, but no free will.

>what is quantum physics

t. brainlet

also there's no proof whatsoever for your silly notions

>what is something that can't be replicated on a molecular level let alone on a cellular level
>what is a Sven that learned what quantum physics is from doctor who and hollywood media

You have a bull to prepare m8

human consciousness is different from everything else in the universe.

Ok ok pal
You earned your (you)
Enjoy

>what is moving the goalposts

Therefore, all other countries should pray be a star on the American flag. Is what it is folks, nature v. nurture, pre-determination-destination

erhem.. quantum mechanics is real. It has been measured. Open a book, its one of the major pillars of physics.

A single electron charge was measured I believe it was back in the late 1800s by uh.. UHHHHHHHHHHHH, forget his name. You'll s-see.

that sounds sarcastic. but a cursory examination proves that it actually is. you're not smart for thinking there is no such thing as free will. it's rather a stupid notion, and your defenses of it are also stupid.

yeah, i don't think you know what you're talking about.

He's right though, you double nigger. Quantum physics is irrelevant at the local cellular level.

>2 is simply 1+1, therefore 2 does not exist, it's simply an accumulation of 1's

That's a fallacy I see so often. You giving the explanation behind a phenomenon does not invalidate the phenomenon.

Umm... just because you don't know what he's talking about doesn't make his argument invalid.

So, quantum mechanics isn't real?

How do you explain heat given off by light? Smart guy.

>Everything you say, think, or do is a result of neurons firing in your brain. Therefore free will is a lie.

What is 2 besides the agreement that it's 1+1. There's either something or nothing, or a nothing/something that is agreed to be something?

Fool that you are, that you trust those neurons to tell you what is true. Now will you fight, or will you perish like a dog?

actually that's quite exactly what it does

there is zero evidence to support that idea.

>how does light give off heat? gotcha there's no free will

you're out of your depth here. scientific notions are always incomplete and meaningless notions. science is, precisely defined, the knowledge of unessential nature. it sheds no light on essential natures.

what people forget is that things are true even before they're proven, and that all things have been known to be true by the wise before they were proven to the other people. this truth being perceived directly. attempting to come to conclusions with the half formed and incomplete knowledge of material things that science provides for the sake of technology is absolutely misguided - you will never succeed at it.

at this point, people trying to 'scientifically prove' that there is no free will are just getting memed the fuck out of. because if they had the slightest understanding of epistemology, if they had any wisdom, they'd realize it's a fools errand.

Dude please
Consciousness is the complex result of a biochemical circuit
It's not fucking magic

Your dumb, nature is measured, measurements made in nature and that follow natures laws is exactly what science and math are

You are retarded.

Yes DNA also certainly isn't real, the very thing that creates your existence, that allows the proteins to build structures like enzymes that function properly and convert what you take in into energy

Certainly this cant be real.

2 is many things that 1 is not. 2 is even, 2 is not a prime number, etc.

Most things are greater than the sum of its parts. Say you have a pile of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium and phosphorous. Not very inspiring, and yet, those are the chemicals that make 99% of the human body.

>There's either something or nothing, or a nothing/something that is agreed to be something?
What?

reductionism simply doesn't work.

if they understood what they were talking about, they'd be shamed into silence by how little they actually know, how incomplete their ideas are.

of course, that's what 'scientific' people do, who elevate science to something beyond a method of creating neat gadgets. they think they can draw conclusions from a bunch of people talking about something, when of course in 100 years all they they say about that something will be completely different. it doesn't occur to the 'science meme' person, to actually investigate themselves. they're like a snivelling brat saying their dad can beat you up.

meant to say 2 IS a prime number

Obviously, science is always theoretical, parts have been proven, but science never stops, ideas and ingenuity will always be constant because we will never know anything. That is sort of the point. If anything, it will keep people from becoming complacent.

Is that too scary for you?

>burger education
philosophy was a great tool before the scientific method
Newtons laws has held up for over 300 years and still work 99% of the time

Lol, he can even divide by zero

The sum of things equal 1, humanity, a person, a nitrogen atom.

.9999=/=1.

99% of our perspective?

you have no evidence of that, let alone proof. that is a conclusion drawn on incomplete information that you didn't even gather yourself, and the information you need to make a statement like that, will always, according to your scientific methods, be incomplete. in fact, you will never be able to make such a statement accurately. unless you make it religiously, of course.

measuring things doesn't really tell you anything but their measurement. dna is real. so what? you can't prove anything meaningful with it. you can say so and so proteins bind to so and so enzymes - and that's where the information you've gathered ends. science does not provide you means to make teleological statements from your spreadsheets of measurements. and you're being inherently 'unscientific' to try and make such statements from it. now you're just practicing a twisted spirituality.

>science never stops

and thus you will never have overarching conclusions that are essential to life out of it. all science will ever do is enable technology. and if technology isn't sufficient for you, maybe science isn't sufficient for you.

philosophy addresses essential questions of the nature you're asking. maybe get a little humility and look into it.

>le free will is just an illusion
>no one has any control so fuck it amirite
I am so fucking glad I grew out of that stupid phase. OP, I suggest you do the same.

What are you even talking about?

Okay and?
Are you going to kill yourself?

This. People who say determinism (which I don't believe in anyway) precludes free will don't understand their own nature in the first place. What is a being/soul/"you"? Most people haven't really giving it much thought, so the language we use to name it coerces it into this kind of magical object that sits somewhere in your brain. So, "you" don't have free will because the neurons control that object. But that's a retarded way of looking at things.

If, instead, you realize that "you" are a process, not at thing, that the mind and body aren't really separate at all, and that the neurons (or more technically, the pattern the neurons embody) are just as much "you" as the totality, then trying to discount free will on those grounds makes much less sense.

Oh man, you aren't getting it.. It is a step towards what is and what will always be. Philosophy is extrapolation of consciousness to observation, that is not empirical. Science is empirical measurement made on an objective basis, not subjective.. Philosophy on the other hand proves nothing. Me in particular, I just like knowing what is actually there, not considering what might or might not be true just so I can find meaning in an ultimately accidental existence. I would rather waste my time seeing what I can actually prove, not simply just theorizing it and being ok with that answer.

when you grab a door handle.
>actually your hand grabs it
>perceive feeling thru nerves
>(((you))) never touch it

I will tell you one thing though? Do you know what PCR is, well it was developed actually by a guy Karry I think, he was tripping acid in the ocean funny enough and realized that he could rebuild dna by copying smaller segments of it multiple times and creating a strand. Showing, that DNA, has depth in evolutionary theories suggesting we came from single celled organisms that slowly evolved over billions of years. I am not sure how long humanity has been around but it hasn't been that long. 10,000 years right? The earth is about 4 billion years I think, the universe and yes this is correct the universe is about 13.7 billion years.

Humanity has barely been around at all when you consider these figures.

SCIENCE, nigger.

>we will never know anything

then scientifically you will never know that there isn't a god, or ten gods, or if free will is real, or if determinism is real, or anything at all - so none of these smug statements you're making are either scientific or true. you're proving my point.

it is scientifically impossible to say 'consciousness is the product of the brain'. there's no 'proof' of that. you might as well say, 'science proves god exists'. it's a scientifically meaningless statement.

you're trying to use scientific data to prove philosophical and spiritual positions, and it's just a symptom of the mental illness pervading our society. this thread is a perfect demonstration of the utter confusion that exists amongst our misguided and uneducated children.

philosophy and science do not address the same questions.

science asks unessential questions, such as, 'how fast does light move' and 'how many calories in this piece of wood'. you can do technology with this. but no piece of technology will substitute for meaning and context in your life.

philosophy asks essential questions. 'what is important?' 'how do i live well?' 'what should i do?' all questions which science is completely incapable of even asking.

>Oh man, you aren't getting it.. It is a step towards what is and what will always be.

it's a journey to nowhere for no reason.

> Philosophy is extrapolation of consciousness to observation, that is not empirical.

meaning isn't empirical. truth isn't empirical. importance isn't empirical. the empirical is a very small and insignificant aspect of what life consists of.

>Science is empirical measurement made on an objective basis, not subjective..

you've proved the stick is 5cm wide. great. you've proved that fire turns toast to carbon. great. who gives a fuck? none of that matters.

>Philosophy on the other hand proves nothing.

do you know what proof is?

do you know what matters?

that's a nice philosophy

Where does perspective stop, outside of tangible results, what is the measure of thing? What is 2 of something outside of it's components, which are numerous. The Chinese don't have a word for friend, so how can you express the idea. This is directly translatable to idea of math, and your idea of 2. 2 what?

science can only prove things that don't matter. dna doesn't *actually* fucking matter, does it? people lived good lives and bad lives before ever knowing about DNA, and there was nothing missing from their lives.

knowledge of DNA is unimportant. it's just technology. knowing about DNA doesn't give any meaning to your life, because there are just as many things that are just as 'important' as DNA that you don't know about and we won't know about for a million years.

Science as a philosophy, nice back hand. I think I might have just been BTFO. Better get off the computer and lick my battle wounds.

Yes, I have said ultimately, it does not matter, to the individual philosophy can be used, not too NATURE at large. I am talking about what can be seen and measured. Not subjective observation (individual measurement), objective measurement is what everyone sees, making it objective.

I don't know I am out there I guess, I just want to see what's really there, not selfishly introspecting and coming up with an erroneous answer that only applies to the way I think, I want to see what is actually there.. big difference.

He studied physics not the brain tho.

wow, that really gets my neurons firing

In science, things get clearer when you name them, categorize them, and group them by traits.

In philosophy, the opposite is often true. By buying into another's terms without having *completely* understood them, you're assuming a portion of another's conclusions without questioning them. You *have* to name things to talk about them, but be careful the name doesn't take on more reality to you than the underlying sensations and processes you're discussing.

God is playing dice with my neurons.
Determinism is false.

>do you know what matters?
Nope because ultimately nothing does, the only reason the world exists is because you are alive to see it.. see that I can philosophy too. But what does that do NOTHING.

It all means nothing and is all useless, but if that's the case, why not waste your time. There's really no point anyway.

More philosophy.

nature at large proves nothing about what's actually going on outside of inconsequential stuff like how fast does something accelerate when it falls. stuff of subjective importance. it's important if you're making money by dropping stuff, other than that... who gives a fuck? that's the nature of science, there's no a priori reason to give a fuck about it.

philosophy on the other hand deals with things that are objectively important to everyone.

you will never know 'whats really there' through science because science can only find facts which will always be superceded later by other facts, theories which will always eventually give way to a better theory, and in the end, it proves nothing at all.

'selfishly introspecting'. the fuck does that mean? 'erroneous answer'. are you implying that someone who actually knows whats important has an 'erroneous answer' because it can't be measured on a scale? i don't think you even know what the things you're saying mean.

i don't think you have any idea what anything means, because science can only give provisional answers based on scales of measurement about what a thing is, science can't tell you ANYTHING about what a thing MEANS.

you seem really lost.

>ultimately nothing matters

and this is evidence that science may have been a mistake altogether, and that possibly, science is absolutely wrong about everything.

you are a sick individual in a sick society, and if this sickness can't be stopped - it would be objectively better that all scientists are burned at the stake and all their books torn up.

>dna doesn't *actually* fucking matter,
Maybe not in the abstract but if you can't see the usefulness of that knowledge in reality you're hopeless.

genome.gov/10001204/

QED is the most rigorously tested theory in science.

I think I just did to much acid and saw humanity, morals, society, and social ingenuity as constructs meant to deter man away from his true self. Of course things have meaning, but its not the same for everyone hence it CANT BE OBJECTIVE. Selfishly assuming that a philosophy you have is the "correct" way to perceive things makes you wrong, because you can never be another human being (philosophical drop kick). Get out of your moral constructions, and view nature. The only reason people believe "humans" aren't animals is because we have morals, and its your morals that are blinding you from the truth.

I do not like what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

>and this is evidence that science may have been a mistake altogether, and that possibly, science is absolutely wrong about everything.
Postmodernism is trash, just FYI.

No actually it's worse than trash. Postmodernism justifies evil. It's dangerous.

>you can change how your mind reacts to things

hmm

/thread

the biggest question people need to ask themselves is IF=THEN

something being 'useful' in a limited capacity to a technician does not equal something being 'meaningful' in any way.

children die all the time. people used to have 20 kids just so that 8 would survive. the fact that you might be able to save someone with a certain technique doesn't make the technique meaningful, it just makes it useful.

but you prove my point: the thing which makes the geneticists work meaningful is not DNA, but in fact, the love he has of his children. which isn't scientifically measurable.

don't blame it on the fucking acid. i've done sheets and sheets of acid and smoked and eaten more DMT then has probably ever been in your city or town.

just because you can't see the objective doesn't mean that i can't. you're just lost and sick.

that's weird, why are you so dumb?

>SCIENCE
>>>/reddit/

you don't know what postmodernism is.

what the fuck does that matter?

>the fact that you might be able to save someone with a certain technique doesn't make the technique meaningful
I think I just had a hemorrhage reading that.

Meaning isn't something that an action intrinsically has or not. It's something you assign to it subjectively, based on what you can accomplish with it.

Is flipping a switch a meaningful action? It's easy enough to answer "no," but you really can't answer this, because you don't have enough information.

If you're flipping the switch to an electric chair, does it have meaning then?

the meaning isn't in the action. meaning is only in action during ceremonial proceedings.

You just aren't getting what we are saying

You can't be someone else, therefore you can experience the world as someone else.. which is precisely why religion is called the "opiate" of the masses. Your subjective experience will never equate to the life of another, therefore science is much more applicable because its objective, seeking what is there, not what "might" be there. That way everyone benefits, not a small subset that might get what you are talking about.

You can't experience the world the same as another, its impossible, even through science

Philosophy just got BTFO

postmodernism is the idea that nothing matters except to the person that takes the action. They did it because that's what felt right to them, dismissive politics, everyone is equal, nihilism, etc. Forethought is the greatest progression one can hope to aspire, IF=THEN, and encompassing all the outcomes of the IF to produce a result. Anything worth while can be boiled down to this, SUPPLY=DEMAND, WORK=PAY.

And if you answer "flipping the switch doesn't have meaning, but killing someone does" I'll flip my shit.

You're using what amounts to a facile semantic trick to try and undermine all human endeavor.

it is just fancy word churning.. don't fall for it.

people that believe in the idea of determinism would agree that what "you" are is a process

process:a continuous action, operation, or series of changes taking place in a DEFINITE manner

definite: free of all ambiguity, uncertainty, or obscurity

this means you have no will or influence because everything that "you" are going to do has already been determined.

Just make your point already.
Are you saying since everything can be ultimately be divided into small unitary units, everything is a logical cascade of events, and that freewill does not exist?

The point is that on any other level than the complete logical evaluation subatomic particles, randomness and chaos are present, and so freewill (or the perception of it) becomes so much relevant that it becomes purely semantics to try to find a way to rationalize its non-existence

Basically, yes, if you have the power of omniscience and know the whereabouts of all sub particles to the point you are able to predict their movement, then you could make the case that freewill is an illusion. However a knowledge that by definition encapsulates the entirety of existence and goes beyond it by predicting its future is impossible in the confines of the universe, so the entire point is moot.

Take the simulation example. The beings being simulated can at best be aware that they are simulations and try to predict events in a macro-scale. But for them to know so much to the point they predict the future of every aspect of the simulation would imply that they are the machine making the simulation itself, as the machine alone is what keeps the simulation afloat and holds the logical properties that govern the simulation.

TL;DR = If you were God, then maybe you could claim freewill does not exist. For literally everything else in creation, freewill is a reality born out of the inevitable lack of complete knowledge of control of the universe.

>That way everyone benefits, not a small subset that might get what you are talking about
Does living as if other people's subjective experiences aren't real benefit anyone? Does never trying to express yourself because you can't be "sure" others understand benefit you? If you're really so devoid of empathy that
>You can't be someone else, therefore you can experience the world as someone else..
seems like a reasonable argument to you, you live a sad isolated existence.

>this means you have no will or influence because everything that "you" are going to do has already been determined.
By "you."

that's not postmodernism. that's the absolutely inevitable conclusion of a generation raised without being taught anything important, only being taught how great science is. it's completely fucking logical if you've been taught everything required for the premises of this thread, and nothing else.

if anything what i'm trying to show you is something pre-modern, something time tested.

What is freewill, does Canada have it? Does Afghanistan have it? We don't know what freewill is based on the evidence of no one being God, so why talk about it's existence. You have free will to the extent that you exist as the individual you're allowed to exist as. I bet a lot of Iraqis would enjoy anime. Think of American corporations, they are ran by individuals or groups of individuals, do they have free will being they operate in so many different countries?

>science is much more applicable because its objective, seeking what is there, not what "might" be there.
A utilitarian worldview precludes strict materialism, because you have to believe in a reason to do anything.

>of a generation raised without being taught anything important,

post·mod·ern·ism
ˌpōs(t)ˈmädərnˌizəm/
noun
noun: postmodernism; noun: post-modernism

a late-20th-century style and concept in the arts, architecture, and criticism that represents a departure from modernism and has at its heart a general distrust of grand theories and ideologies as well as a problematical relationship with any notion of “art.”

> represents a departure from modernism and has at its heart a general distrust of grand theories and ideologies

like i said.

perspective

at least we can agree that it's aids.

You can actually control neurons firing in your brain by thinking of particular topics, items, concepts or shapes, closely enough that a scanner can pick it up. They have done tests on people who appear braindead as a form of communication, and when they e.g. want to say "YES" they choose to think of some particular shape which the scanner picks up.

Basically, to elaborate because I realize that's going to be unsatisfying to a lot of people...

Basically even if your future decisions are inevitable as a result of your current state, you're still living out your nature by making them. Process not object, or, experience not thing.

>anything you think is just a result of you thinking therefore you don't think lol let me post a picture of Albert Einstein just so people know I think this is an intelligent idea

Are you fucking retarded?

I think you are implying that the Afghani kid who wants to be a lawyer but can't because his country is a mess does not have freewill based on his current circumstances, as his environment will determine his future, not him.

I would disagree, free will does not include the power to do whatever you want, but simply the will do to stuff. Him wanting to be a lawyer is a display of freewill, regardless if he ever becomes one or not. The impossibility of achieving a desire does not invalidate the existence of such desire.

And it still doesn't say that shit happens out of randomness or, as hollywood likes to portray it, that quantum relativity can explain parallel universes, completely random events and stupid nonsense like that

You want evidence that fit into your small category of acceptable evidence, ence why I can't find any
If I fiddle with your brain, cut the hemispheres apart or tamper with it in any way suddenly your consciousness changes
You can accept that if I do that to any other body part it has obvious effects, but the brain is in another category apparently, despite being an organ that evolved like any other
So what ? Should I prove to you a brain is an organ, or that consciousness "is born" from it ?

Not believing in free-will is like saying you don't have responsibility over any wrong doing.

Fuck off you self-apologetic shitter