Universal Basic Income

Universal Basic Income

I know the guy on the bottom is completely full of shit. I just don't know what else to say to make him realize what he's proposing is a fantasy

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>I know the guy on the bottom is completely full of shit.
explain

Eventually our economy does have to deal with the fact that 85% of the population will be unemployed because we can manufacture all the goods with 10% and all the food with 5%.

This dude is wrong because he's essentially proposing we have slavery again, but with robots. The idea that the gov't outlaws companies from owning robots and private citizens buy robots to sell their labor to manufacturers. This idea fails because manufacturing will not make up the majority of economic activity and only a small percentage of people will be able to do this.

We have to find something for 85% of the population to do for work to keep our economy going.

There is no post work society dude. The issue of tomorrow is that automation increases wealth exponentially while labor can only be increased through training. Labor will make up less and less of production in the country and income through labor eventually won't be enough to live off of. Similarly, UBI will never be enough to live off either. It's function, opposed to whatever its proponents told you, will be to supplement labor income to make sure people don't live in poverty.

>company pays a Universal Basic Income tax of 25k
>government gives that tax to a NEET

except for the fact that one robot does not replace just one worker, this implies that the government doesn't have to pay for people/infrastructure/etc.

the current welfare state is unsustainable under the amount of people there is, UBI is and will be a meme

you spelt "eke" wrong you dumb shit

>There is no post work society dude

That's exactly what I'm saying. The 85% of people that will not be doing manufacturing or agriculture need a job and they must do something to contribute to society.

I completely disagree with the concept of UBI coming from the government because their profit model as a corporation type entity would not support it. UBI would come in the form of employment benefits from a large corporation that can afford it. As long as the corporation can extract value from its workers in some form, they can be employed and receive UBI.

The only thing stopping this is what is something of value the 85% can produce that justifies corporate UBI.

We will never run out of jobs. Automation is a meme.

UBI will simply lead to either totalitarianism with an absolute government, or neofeudalism. Either way, the average worker is going to get fucked.

this is correct.

industrialization is the closest analog. people thought that machines would replace us back in the 1800s and we all saw how that turned out.

there are other big tech leaps throughout history that affect capital primarily.

each time what ends up happening is more room for labor in the market. economies adapt, because people adapt.

How do we adapt this time?

You'll find out soon enough faggot.

The real solution is to program the robots to buy consumer products.

The rich are not going to pay to keep useless people alive.

There is a reason communism has resulted in the death of millions every single time it has been attempted.

You're right that the future favors monopolies and multinationals, but the UBI would have to come from the government.
>extract value
Every increase in automation discredits the LTV. Capital creates the most wealth and so capital owners receive that wealth. To avoid what seems like an inevitable welfare-police state, the alternative is encouraging workers to own property from which to derive a second income

>A full charged phone
Rare

We need to cut the work week in half and no commensurate reduction in wages. So your 55k accounting job will just be done in 20 hours instead of 40.

That alone will completely obliterate unemployment

These people know that. They think they will be allowed to live because they ass kiss the elite

Once automation is advanced enough one machine could replace potentially 3 workers assuming 8 hour shifts and 24 hour runtime with what would normally be lunch breaks now being used for maintenance and cleaning. This is only for mass produced goods and some services like restaurants/fast food, though. I imagine large scale agriculture will still need humans. Plus software and hardware development, journalism (if such a thing exists by then with our current rise in alternative news sources after loss of faith in standard media), the arts, sports, education. There would still be jobs to do but there won't be enough to go around. What I expect is a low supplementary UBI but someone's eligibility for it is dependent on employment, and the way that would work is that one job position would employ multiple people on a rotation schedule. This is for low skill service jobs. Jobs requiring expertise with higher earning potential would not be eligible for the UBI but the income would be much greater. I also expect cheap or free education, the UBI could also be granted to those enrolled in education.

Hey Obama.

Funnily enough

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Mouse_experiments

>We have to find something for 85% of the population to do for work to keep our economy going.

Automation (suppose it DOES replace human labor, without creating one or more new ones, one vacant position at a time) will only happen at a rate that's profitable.

Suppose every job with a middle class income and down just got replaced overnight, it would be absolutely terrible for business. If the middle class can't afford to spend, you have no viable market, in addition to a unemployed majority of society that will get desperate and do something drastic.

Automation will find its own right pace, as it always has, and so far that has resulted in unprecedented prosperity. I have no reason to believe the "robot revolution" will be any different.

Fuck I forgot about this. It's so perfect

I remember when we were on the cusp of a paperless world...

which is why we need a massive purge
overpopulation is about resources not space
and right now there's just too many people

>that lit up arrow
leave

>company fires workers and replaces them with robots
>government taxes company and redistributes money to jobless
I don't get this meme. it's basically forcing business owners to keep paying people for the job they don't do anymore. why wouldn't the robot owners just buy killbots to cull the useless population?

I think this is a naive assumption. The lower classes of the south during slavery could not compete with slave labor. Southern plantation owners could simply trade and grow their own slaves, rather than hire the white lower classes.

cant wait for libs, neets, and poorfags to get gassed whent the robots take over jobs

Thing is they are not 'useless people'. The robots don't buy anything. They need people to sell stuff to and if 80% of the population is killed off you just killed 80% of your customer base.

So they can enjoy a $1000 frozen pizza.

If you kill off 80%of the people you don't need all the fucking automation anymore.

>We have to find something for 85% of the population to do for work to keep our economy going.
War. They'll be sent to war.

So you go to school and invent more transgender types?

No, if you don't have at least one foot in necessity: food, housing, medical, then you are a useless eater.

Why are you arguing with strangers on Yik Yak

This is tragedy of the commons.

For every individual business, automation is a pragmatic way to cut costs. Yet, if every business does it then they will all fail.

I'm pretty sure the solution is to import millions of unskilled, uneducated third worlders.

I fucking hate Commies.

Blew my fucking mind

The only job left would be prostitutes. Even when there would be AI that could perfectly resemble a human being, there will be people who will have fetishes for other people. Sex is when we're the most irrational.

The future will be about unlocking human potential and letting people engage in the activities that suit them instead of forcing them to waste their lives as glorified factory machines. UBI will ensure this once automation eliminates the need for unskilled labor.

We will still need to incentivize wholesome social activities, however, such as community participation and services which nurture the development of others.

UBI is predicated on the false and cancerous belief that all life is sacred/precious, and that the highest moral imperative is to sustain and save human life.

But that's simply false. If you can't produce any value, then you won't receive any value. And if robots put 2/3 of the developed world permanently out of work, then that 2/3 must either create a subsistence/barter economy or starve to death.

Where was UBI to fill in the gaps created by the industrial revolution? Where was UBI to feed all the people in the third world who couldn't compete with multinational conglomerates? The way of the world from time immmemorial is that if you can't produce any value you starve.

All this noise about UBI is from special snowflakes who think they're too unique and important to be rendered irrelebant and unviable.

>what if we just had an infinite loop of meaningless money spinning around and constantly getting siphoned off

UBI will be tied to birth control

Why does UBI have to come from the government?

Governments are another form of corporation that have the responsibility of redistributing taxed wealth to their country. Governments specialize in providing services that private corporations cannot, such as an army, laws, and minted currency. The government also doesn't have to make a profit, so they monopolize things to keep them cheap.

Private corporations are better suited to create UBI because they will be able to raise the revenue to sustain it and find a way to make post-industrial work profitable. Private corporations will eventually be able to employ everyone, give them a basic living wage, and benefits.

No, they get paid so they can buy the products... If no one is employed and have no money how are they supposed to buy stuff?

It's not unthinkable that such a situation might arise, at one point or another. Drastic changes tends to have drastic transients.

But again, I don't see why robotic / AI automation would ever pose any doomsday threat.

I'm reading this thread and I don't think many of you understand how big AI will become. Once we hit that tipping point t it's all over for pretty much all human labor and pretty much all human work. If you know what the singularity is and the exponential technological acceleration. UBI is going to have to be realized one way or another 100% of is will be out of work

>Private corporations will eventually be able to employ everyone
Doing what, exactly?

We are the beautiful ones

Its not really a dooms day but it will be for some who need to work. There could be niche products or services but the vast majority of jobs will be gone most like close to 99%. I don't think machines will be one sentient but they will take over all jobs period everything writing code for itself fixing itself it's going to happen fast as fuck as well.

>Get UBI
>Kill 80% of the Goy population
>Enslave the remaining 20% mixed race Afro-Euro-Asians
>Summon Antichrist and rule over the world with robot labor slaves and goy slaves


UBI is the perfect pathway to Jew world order.

It's fucking easy OP.

Companies would just raise how much goods are.

The rich

We have all heard of the singularity. There is no reason to believe that there will be "exponential technological acceleration" even if strong AI is ever invented.

>once the robots are in control they will pamper and love me like the baby i am

It's already happened what the fuck are you talking about?

We need to completely restrict immigration, and we need to start deciding who can, and cannot breed. Only then can we implement UBI.

>each time what ends up happening is more room for labor in the market. economies adapt, because people adapt.
This, and it really is that simple. Every time I hear UBI it is just lazy people not wanting to work, nothing else. Lazy bastards. And People say, what on Earth will they do? Shit, I don't know, but since resources are so plenty why are we not busy building a giant spaceship or something? Because people that advocate UBI are just lazy, they don't want to advance human civilization.

You'll have no choice or we just die? It's inevitable my friend I'm not sure if they'll take care of us but it's going to happen.

why does anyone need to buy stuff? the rich can just subsist off of their robot slaves in jetsons towers while everyone else dies on the surface.

Ubi takes nigger tier logic to want

Btw I don't think the robots will be the ones in control it'll be whoever owns them. Machines will never be sentient

What has happened?

It's not a doomsday threat, rather consider this: For most of human history monarchy/feudalism was the primary form of government. Mass democracy was an anomalous occurrence. It was the age of the gun that allowed mass democracy to thrive. The age of drones is coming and mass produced drones can overwhelm any man with a gun.

>wanting to keep consumerism

so slavery for your commie pipe dream is ok because the slaves aren't organic? True AI implies consciousness and sentience

There is zero problems with the government dolling out the UBI because, as I already asserted, it won't be a livable income alone

Start with the first premise of UBI which is that human labor has zero value.

And one single nuclear blast far above a country can create an emp that can overwhelm every single drone. One computer virus can overwhelm the entire drone network. Live more in the present please.

Eventually technology/robotics will replace most jobs. When that time comes it should just be used as free slavery and given to the people. Living off of UBI shouldn't be glamorous by any means so there's still incentive to work. It replaces all existing social programs and lumps them into one. More free time = free to think, invent, build, create, etc. Or get a job and earn extra on top of your basic income.

This is weird territory because "YOU NEED TO WORK TO LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK FOREVER" has been common for centuries now.

>Robots replace humans
>Humans reap all benefits
>UBI replaces all welfare and social security
>NEETs can NEET in peace
>Productive people will work and produce/earn more than their counterparts
>Homelessness eradicated
>Mo money fo dem consumable goods

Nazis were anti-consumerist too, Commie Kike

Something our government can't regulate away like the industrial revolution. The reason our industrial revolution ended was that our laws became too expensive to comply with so the corporations left to find a country with less strict laws.

Our tax laws are too strict, we have a 40% corporate tax and double taxation that no other company has.
>76% of our corporations have done inversions to get lower tax liabilities by having their headquarters in foreign countries with 12% corporate tax rate and no double taxation.
Our labor laws are too strict and expensive to pay for
>Corporations manufacture goods in the third world where there are no such laws


This

We are going through an economic revolution that is as significant as the industrial revolution and millions of people will die if we don't think about these problems.

war

we will put them to work by killing commies

Okay here's how to make a basic income work economically:
1. every citizen gets the same amount
2. every job has this amount factored in as a large fraction of any pay for any work - actual outlay to an employer is very small wage out of pocket
3. there have to be basic survival rights for all citizens that include clothing, shelter, plumbing, electricity, and internet access so they can visit Sup Forums
4. Initially, this must be funded with a special bond, like a 100 yr bond to cover the extra fiat monies being injected into the economy. Over tme, inflation will normalize the initial shock while also paying off the bonds.
5. Economically this must be done with the goal of boosting the economy in a sustainable, long-term manner. Every dollar you give to a poor person gets spent, usually giving a return of almost 2 bucks to the economy. Money to the rich only goes into their pockets.

6. There must be guaranteed work of some sort available to anyone, not necessarily employment, that anyone can get regardless of ability. Really just having something to do is key, but doing things to help everyone is better.
You can't require someone to work when there is no work and no jobs and no one willing to pay to get things done.
So a work, not a jobs, program for all citizens tailored to each individual within reason and as basic and varied as the current so-called workplace. Something doable, not a fantasy, but an actual realworld plan.

People want to survive, but insisting everyone die just because you don't want them to have any help shows how big a cunt you are, so if that's all u got then fuck off cunts.

no they weren't

nazis even offered the first luxury home TVs at great cost to the public, among many other luxury goods

some of the finest luxury cars ever made in history were made under the nazis

>Labor is only 10% of the population
>Better heavily tax labor

any day now

youtube.com/watch?v=g0TaYhjpOfo

the robots will wipe my ass

Is that why he sucked corporate dick, and had IBM, Coca Cola and JPMorganChase backing him? Stop making up shit.

What sub is this

AI and robots will inevitably become better than humans at everything including maintaining other robots and writing software. We will make ourselves completely obsolete.

Consumerism isn't bad because people get to enjoy teaching benefits of advancing technology, consumerism is bad because it encourages people to waste resources in frivolous pursuits. The German Government under Hitler reviewed all businesses to ensure that their actions were in the national interest. That is hardly consumerist behavior

>people thought that machines would replace us back in the 1800s and we all saw how that turned out

This is absurdly poor reasoning.

How should I know? All I'm saying that it's going to happen if you like it or not. Has nothing to do with commie shit AI does not imply consciousness.

I don't think they know what AI will be capable off.

Ok everybody no more liberty. This guy will just decide what you should spend your money on...

They weren't retarded Marxists who hated rich people. They used their powers to ensure that all business that was done was to the nation's benefit. How hard of a concept is this?

It's also funny because those people's predictions will come true

Fuck, you're dumb. You want companies to employ double the number of people they do to split the current hours of all full time workers, and not pay each half of the initial income? If you want free shit become a criminal or kill yourself comrade.

Won't happen. Can't train deterministic machines to think no deterministically.

All UBI is is a basic minimum livable wage, it's there to safeguard you against the fact that there WILL be a point where a large amount of jobs are obsolete. If you can find work then well done, you'll earn more than the $45k/year or whatever.

Companies will still exist, companies will still have to be competitive, people will still want to work because they want to earn more. All UBI will do is get rid of poverty level out the country's earnings a bit.

Thats pretty psychotic.

>AI and robots will inevitably become better than humans at everything including maintaining other robots and writing software. We will make ourselves completely obsolete.
You are not a free-thinker and never will be. At that point computer-chips in the brain, exoskeletons, genetic enhancement etc. will advance the single human. Homo sapiens is just a transition phase for the human race. Or do you think evolution stopped with homo sapiens?

labor moves, you get a job maintaining the robots, work gets easier.

all that will happen in the next 100 years, ubi is just retarded communism.

Liberty is always limited, the state that protects your liberties must prevent individuals from using those liberties to harm it. This should be common sense

People still want to trade with each other even if they have no cash. You work an hour for me, I work an hour for you.

Private communities have setup time bank systems where people can trade their labor directly for other labor without having to get government paper first.

No, only manufacturing will will be automated, and the market will provide new jobs for our dwindling manufacturing sector. Realistically those jobs would be outsourced before they become fully automated anyway. It will never be a problem. You are a fucking retard if you can't see that.

>Can't train deterministic machines to think no deterministically.

They don't need to be completely deterministic to be superior to us.

Automation is a long way away from replacing service sector jobs. There will always be work.

>how should I know
>i just know it will be inevitable

>millions live on basic income alone because human nature
>obviously will blow through it
>gubmint won't let anyone die and will just keep handing out gibs me dats