God

Its easy, tho.

I am an agnostic atheist.

God, as an idea, its impossible to debunk, since it can exist without evidence, maybe on a higher plain of existence far beyond human perception.

But the Christian God? It simply does not exist. The bible is contradicted multiple times by evolution (garden of eden) , biology (endless flood, animals praying, having belly bottons, etc.), logic (if god knows your future, there is no free will).

And even if Jehova, the christian god existed, he deserves no praise as a someone perfectly good.
(Turning a woman into salt, murdering an entire town, regretting to flood the human race when he knows the future, giving adam and eve a test he knows they will fail, sending people to hell when they have no freedom to change their destiny, sending people who had no access to information about him to hell, taking sides in human wars, having a favourite group of people, literally punishing adam and eve for getting knowledge, brainwashing people in heaven into abandoning their personality and previous memories, sending his own son to a suicide mission, sending good people to hell just because they were not christian, and a long etc.)

In conclusion, there MIGHT be A god around. There is no debunking or even proving that.

But the Christian God? He is not real.
It contradicts many of the rules of nature and simple logic that rules our understanding.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/user/graytaich0/videos
youtube.com/watch?v=b1mJnEmjlLE
youtube.com/watch?v=CwlGuETE9sY
youtube.com/watch?v=jEDeqlKh_u4
youtube.com/watch?v=tcGQpjCztgA
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I agree. I feel pity for people who still believe in such nonsense.

>agnostic atheist.
No, this isn't reddit when you can claim this stupid shit. You're either one or the other, and you are atheist. You assert that because you disagree with God's actions or that he operates in a way we don't understand, he can't exist. Applying this to anything in real life, it's easily seen to be false. Here's some advice I like to give all atheist: Learn some formal logic.

I believe in God but not the Christian or Jewish God.

I used to live in a haunted house so I'm sure there's an afterlife. I pity those who haven't experienced specters.

>evolution

Evolution violates entropy

DNA is an incredibly complex language that cells write in and interpret. Can a language exist without a creator?

Evolution is a complete sham and I guarantee in 50 years or less every scientist with laugh it off as a silly myth people used to believe in, like the earth being flat

>tl;dr ur a doofus son

The Earth is flat

god can be know through pure awareness
it's also called knowledge through unknowing, gnosis through agnosis
once you break down all of the illusion god is only thing that remains
the christian/hjebrew god Yahweh translates to "the one who is"
in the middle ages god was refereed to as nihil which also means nothingness
nothingness is also source of everything and is beyond space in time, alpha and omega, it cannot be grasped for anything that can is by definition something
that's why making a god into image - a concept is a sin
the bible does not contradict science because the bible is not a scientific text
there wasn't science around back then

Its a valid posture.
I dont get why i cant claim to be what i believe i believe.

Can you prove that, tio?

Belly bottons, garden of eden, humanity being started by a single couple, humans living thousands of years, etc.

Yeah, but i only believe in scientific proof.

If the answer to god is that "pure awareness" you claim, then i simply cannot reach that knowledge.

Fucking hell man, agnostic atheist is a perfectly valid statement to make, he is combining an epistemological claim with a moral claim.

yes you can reach that knowledge
that's why people go to monasteries
you need to spend years developing mindfulness concentration and equanimity

>god can be known through pure awareness
>yeah, but i only believe in scientific proof

Most important worldview differences do not hinge on specific facts or interpretations, but on fundamental differences in thought structure. You can't really reason yourself in or out of them, but sometimes heavy memetic (mythic) influence can knock you into a different configuration.

Reason gets you around your bubble. Myth (memes) helps you interact with other bubbles. Social pressure can get you to play-act, and sometimes that snaps you into the configuration you're mimicking.

I haven't seen anyone with cosmic awareness beyond the physical plain.

Sorry, but that is my posture.

I simply dont believe in anything that is beyond human understanding of the physical realm.

I am emphatically not saying "dur the other guy is correct give up rational thought to find Jeesus". Your framework is as functional as his, and often more socially prestigious. :^)

But the world really, truly doesn't make any sense at the bottom. We're floating in stranger strangeness than I can describe.

you don't need any "cosmic awareness beyond brain" all you need to do is closely look at what is
the concentration and awareness of average human is like an eye, concentration of experienced meditation master is like a microscope
you could compare it to looking at pixel on a screen and seeing single color vs taking a magnifying glass and seeing the individual RGB components

from the top of my head I could list you dozen people who are enlightened and there are probably way over thousands of others people who had a glimpse of it

So you're more on the pantheist spectrum, is that so?

I agree.

Anything is possible up there.

I didnt quite get all of that.
But again, i only believe on data from the physical realm of reality.

Pantheist spectrum?

Religion is the foundation of a moral society, that's why it's valuable. Not because of the mythos it uses to outline the morals it portrays.

We follow religion because it tells us to be good to one another, not because Jesus turned water into wine.

All of these leddit Athiests bring up these facts like it some sort of ground breaking logic "DAE you cant actually turn water into wine," no shit retard thats not why religion is important.

Just trying to determine whether your beliefs tend to incline towards atheism or pantheism more. You can't really call yourself an atheist when you accept the idea of an all-encompassing being. I'm just curious which of these views prevail.

you train your concentration and min-fullness ability, really the same way you would train a muscle
and then just observe and watch all your beliefs melting away

That's the thing.

Religion, the institution, is harmful to human principles.

Women can't talk in church if their man denies it, infidels and homosexuals must be put to death, there are thought crimes, etc.

Not to mention that if the god you believe in does have the power to see into the future, free will does not exist.

Its morals are dangerous to society.
Just see the actions of those who follow Mohammad.

I am saying i dont reject the idea of a being beyond our capacity to undersand.

If there is evidence of a hogher being, i would accept it.

I have a legit question. while saying "trust me i'm not trolling" will sound fishy, i need you guys to trust me on this one. it's a legit question.

How can you claim he doesn't exist?

>you can't prove it exists therefore it doesn't exist
what if we are simply lacking the "technology" to see him? i mean earth was believed to be flat at one point, and nobody suspected the existance of microscopic, nucler and subnuclear particles before they were discovered, but if someone made a claim "i believe everything is made of atoms" people would've been skeptical as well.

>you can't prove it doesn't exist, you don't disprove something that doesn't exist
While i agree on this, what gives so much certainty on it though? I mean to my point of view everything in life is "probable", being certain that something DOES NOT EXIST because you're biased by your own belief (since there's no scientific proof of course), doesn't it make it as close as religion can get? This doesn't mean that he probably exists because you cannot prove it doesn't, but it doesn't even prove it doesn't exist either.

So. What if he does exist but it:

a) lives extraordinarely far away from us so we can't find him

b) lives in a sub-atomic level beyond the level we can observe right now
b1) is huge but made of subatomic particles so we don't either see or feel its presence, just like we don't feel the presence of gasses mixed in the air

c) what if he's made of massless particles, like light? i mean sure, we can see photons but hey if scientific research was done, we wouldn't be researching anymore right? maybe, again, we are lacking the technology.

to claim something doesn't exist because you can't prove is just as blind as blindly believing he exists because you believe he does. it's the same thing.

>Just see the actions of those who follow Mohammad.
I'm not talking about shitslam.
even in your OP you explicitly describe the Christian God

>But the Christian God? It simply does not exist. The bible is contradicted multiple times by evolution (garden of eden) , biology (endless flood, animals praying, having belly bottons, etc.), logic (if god knows your future, there is no free will).
>But the Christian God? He is not real.
>It contradicts many of the rules of nature and simple logic that rules our understanding
Your entire argument is the leddit "can't prove it hahaha ur all so dumb" smuggie meme.

2spooky4me

>Religion, the institution, is harmful to human principles.

And this is just blatantly wrong. Western civilization grew on Christianity, because Christianity is a religion of order and relative peace. Look at the Quakers and their first colonies in Pennsylvania, they largely succeeded BECAUSE of the order their religion brought. Not to mention all of Western Europe.

You're applying human logic to a concept you have not and cannot experience while you are alive. Your concept of logic and reality may completely change at that point so that what you perceive and rationalize now may not make sense once you have passed. You and no one else has any concept of what lies beyond except those that are already there. You cannot disprove this. And the burden of proof cannot be provided.

>This doesn't mean that he probably exists because you cannot prove it doesn't, but it doesn't even prove it doesn't exist either.

I've always associated His existence with Schrödinger's experiment.

fair point, bravo

Is that argument really dumb when you claim something exists and its debunked by science?

Part of the growth of the western civilization might have been thanks to religion.

But that doesnt mean we need it now.

Isnt the christian bible claiming physical feats happened in real life?
Thus, its aplicable to human logic.

ITT: christfags on suicide watch

Who was demokritos?

Shameless self-quote "All things are born from it, yet it doesn't create them. It pours itself into its work, yet it makes no claim. It nourishes infinite worlds, yet it doesn't hold on to them. Since it is merged with all things and hidden in their hearts, it can be called humble. Since all things vanish into it and it alone endures, it can be called great.
It isn't aware of its greatness; thus it is truly great.

The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things.

All things have their backs to the female and stand facing the male. When male and female combine, all things achieve harmony.

Ordinary men hate solitude. But the Master makes use of it, embracing his aloneness, realizing he is one with the whole universe."

>If there is evidence of a higher being, i would accept it.
yeah if it was served to you on a plate for you would

>You're applying human logic to a concept you have not and cannot experience while you are alive
this is true and also false
you cannot experience it when you're alive because ego death is implicit in that situation
but you can experience when the body you call "me" is alive
there are dozens of examples of this from even in the christian world
the orthodox call it theosis

The christiab God is for manipulation

Actual God is beyond our perception but is "real/exists" as fuck or whatever

Indeed.

You get me

>Is that argument really dumb when you claim something exists and its debunked by science?

Doesn't Neitzche rectify this by saying science and religion are two explanations of the world coming from different perspectives. They are not seeking to reach the same conclusions so it doesn't make sense to apply scientific values on religion in the first place?
I.E. that religion doesn't try to describe the nature of the world; only how your should interact in it.
I.E. that science doesn't try to describe the world in a spiritual sense, only how the world functions.

And EVEN THEN, science is only the world as we KNOW it to operate, subject to change and adaptation just like religion.

Master race Afidel reporting in. All belief is merely an idea in ones head and has no impact on reality outside.

That's it.

I only believe in what is material.

>yeah if it was served to you on a plate for you would
This is ironic coming from a christfag, who doesn't just need scientific fact on a plate for him, he needs it in an enema.

>le science vs religion meme
and
>implying I'm a christfag
go away

I laugh at your high IQ.

>And even if YHWH, the JEWISH god existed, he deserves no praise as a someone perfectly good.
You're right. Which is why I believe that the Jews worship Satan / Yaldabaoth. You don't even need to read the bible to know that the universe is maliciously designed. Just look at the immense suffering of animals in the wild, thousands of new-borns being eaten alive. The blood cost of evolution is incredibly high. Matter itself is the Logos / divinity / the absolute, trapped in particles and compelled by "time". Physics is even beginning to agree with parts of this position.

There are contradictions between the Old Testament and the New Testament because Jesus is the light bringer, in opposition to the Demiurge. YHWH demands blood and suffering to appease him. Jesus makes no such demands. They are at odds because Judaism, the religion of materialism is evil.

>Religion, the institution, is harmful to human principles.
Oh look it's the "religion is harmful but atheism isn't the cancer of western civilisation, killed more people than any other idea (communism), destroys families, morality, all happiness, meaning and purpose" meme.

Get a fucking clue.

I dont believe the world is totally bad.

Institutions want to suck you dry, male your life miserable, but its the pay we have in exchange of security and structure.

You dont have to marry or be succesful, just being happy and accepting the reasons for it are far enough for this universe to be decent enough.

>I only believe in what is material.
Science isn't a process of belief, its a process of understanding.

By that process the only things you believe exist are the things that can be quantified.

Would you mind telling me how the truth is damaging society.

A society that doesnt work in truth is a society that deserves to be rebuild from the top.

Indeed.

Thats what i believe in.

There is no meaning to this life so we must give ourselves meaning.

Pic related. It's you. You're like a blind man trying to convince us that colours don't exist.

Whether God is man made or not it doesn't change the fact that there is a God and He has revealed himself to us through His works and His Son. Sin and Hell are also very real, whether they exist in this plane or another it doesn't change the fact that sin will put you there.

God is the fundamental director of how you should ACT and Christ is the ideal. Act against God and you will disturb your place among his people, humanity. Call it whatever you want it, but those truths will never change.

The greatest realization pol ever made was this. Christianity is the only thing that will save humanity. Belief itself is irrelevant.

You should look into Deism.

Where's all the pagan love? No followers of the Aesir here?

Can you quantify your emotions? Are your emotions a tangible quantity?

Hey OP, if Yaweh came down right now and told you he was real and that his Son is the only way to salvation, would you convert? Genuinely curious.

>God, as an idea, its impossible to debunk
Actually, it is possible, if you are able to somehow find a logical contradiction in the concept of God or something of that sort. Kinda like proving a square circle cannot exist.

>The bible is contradicted multiple times by evolution (garden of eden)
First of all, evolution does nothing to solve the problem of origin, it only describes the process of an existing form of life evolving into the next.

Second, whether the theory is true or not regarding human life, does not affect the Bible in any way because God could have (if he wanted to) also have created life and then evolved it very quickly. After all, Genesis does not tell us when the universe was created, young earth creationists simply try to estimate it based on some dates found in later Biblical texts but that's just a guess.

>biology (endless flood, animals praying, having belly bottons, etc.)
I don't understand this one... endless food as in, miracles? Those are by definition supernatural, so to try and explain them naturally, doesn't make any sense

>logic (if god knows your future, there is no free will)
Not really a logical problem per se, but I understand your point. Your mistake is to assume that God has already defined what is going to happen, and we are simply like a train moving towards those goals. That's not the case. The future is pure potentiality, it doesn't exist.

I like the way Dr. William Lane Craig puts it (His works are an excellent source for this topic by the way):

"God’s knowledge is sort of like an infallible barometer. An infallible barometer will tell you with infallible correctness which way the weather will be. But the barometer doesn’t determine the weather; the weather determines the barometer. From the barometer’s reading, you can know how the weather will be, but the barometer won’t determine the weather, it is the other way around. Such is the case with foreknowledge, too."

There is a God or a Goddess. HNGGGGGGGGGGGG

>The bible is contradicted multiple times by evolution (garden of eden)
Evolution is only a theory
>having belly bottons
Wat
> there is no free will
correct

>Institutions want to suck you dry, male your life miserable, but its the pay we have in exchange of security and structure.
I didn't mention anything about human suffering.
youtube.com/user/graytaich0/videos
youtube.com/watch?v=b1mJnEmjlLE
youtube.com/watch?v=CwlGuETE9sY
youtube.com/watch?v=jEDeqlKh_u4
Watch some of these and tell me that nature is good.

Paganism is the backward path in the evolution of God. It was defeated by monotheism because it is the superior idea. God defeated all the pagan gods who challenged Him. Why worship the beaten hero when another has bested him?

Continued...

>And even if Jehova, the christian god existed, he deserves no praise as a someone perfectly good.
>examples of God killing people
First let me ask this, on what basis are you saying that these acts were immoral? Without God, there cannot be objective morality, so you have no way of defining anything as absolutely good or evil. You would have to borrow first from the Judeo-Chritian worldview, in order to debunk God :)

Second, God is the author of life, and has every right to take your life and mine, for him it's not murder, for us it is. God cannot act contrary to his nature though, so lying is something God could never do, but as the author of life, he can also take life.

>I am an agnostic atheist.

>Without God, there cannot be objective morality
Prove it

What makes something objectively moral or immoral?

>I am an agnostic atheist.
i'm pretty sure you're actually a beaner

natural selection

What does that have to do with morality?

it was evolved

God is unchanging in nature, he will never change his mind about stealing or lying, it's in the very definition of who God is.

Humans, the only other moral agent, are changing and each person has their own subjective opinion, as we clearly see in the world.

For the sake of argument, let's say God does not exist, and me and you are the last people to exist and we are on an island alone, the only 2 moral agents in existence.

I say lying is good, that's my opinion, but you don't agree, you say lying is wrong. Which one of us is right?

If God exist, it doesn't matter what our opinions are, he is the ultimate and unchanging source of the law. He is the reference point.

As C.S Lewis once stated: “I wouldn't know what crooked was, unless I knew what straight was.”

This is exactly right.

The arrogance of Man that he could determine what is good and evil in the same manner as God is the essence of Original Sin itself. Moral relativism is itself Original Sin and it is the very thing that undermines and destroys society. It's no wonder that communism and other doctrines of that nature can so easily murder millions of people. By adopting moral relativism they weave the very fabric of Evil itself into their structure.

OK so what is the test if something is moral or immoral
Also what does biology have to do with morality

>OK so what is the test if something is moral or immoral
watch your response to it

Different people respond different ways

Morality evolved WITH God which is why it is immutable. Belief structures that succeded survived and so the morality of belief is that which brings personal and societal success. While everything around this morality changed and died it survived, meaning that it is the rule. Nothing can replace it because it is the description of the rules by which all things live or die.

and that's where natural selection comes in play

OK but so how its objective?

because it fluctuates around certain spot in a way that it's not completely random
I'm fine with you calling that subjective
but you cannot dismiss it just because it's subjective

I am calling it subjective because there is no way to objectively define whether an action is moral or immoral

>God, as an idea, its impossible to debunk, since it can exist without evidence, maybe on a higher plain of existence far beyond human perception.

It is possible to prove however, as scholastics did.

>But the Christian God? It simply does not exist. The bible is contradicted multiple times by evolution (garden of eden), biology (endless flood, animals praying, having belly bottons, etc.)

Either poetic, misunderstanding of the text or imperfections of a translation (for example, when the dietary laws are listed, most translations will list bat as belonging to "birds" - however, the word translated as "birds" has a wider meaning in Hebrew).

>logic (if god knows your future, there is no free will).

Person makes the choice, God, being outside of time, simply knows the choice.

>Turning a woman into salt, murdering an entire town, regretting to flood the human race when he knows the future, giving adam and eve a test he knows they will fail, sending people to hell when they have no freedom to change their destiny, sending people who had no access to information about him to hell, taking sides in human wars, having a favourite group of people, literally punishing adam and eve for getting knowledge, brainwashing people in heaven into abandoning their personality and previous memories, sending his own son to a suicide mission, sending good people to hell just because they were not christian, and a long etc.)

First, God has a full right to take human's life at His will, second, He owes people nothing. Some of these deserve a closer reading though:

>sending people who had no access to information about him to hell

See "invincible ignorance".

>taking sides in human wars

If the war is just, what's the problem?

>brainwashing people in heaven into abandoning their personality and previous memories

That's not what happens.

And so on, you have an incredibly low level knowledge of something you want to talk about. Read more, then come back.

Most of us agree, but we enjoy the deus vult memes, and we completely hate allah

>on the pantheist spectrum
Actually, I spiritually identify as an attack helicopter.

>religion is a valuable tool to achieve the values of materialist utilitarians
>the truth of its specific claims is irrelevant
Stances of this type have the memetic strength of tissue paper. Believe it honestly or don't promote it.

>it's an "atheist thinks the discovered a theological point that has been exhaustively debated for centuries and centuries, and drove schisms between churches" thread

>I am an agnostic atheist

Stopped reading that

A scientific theory.

Like gravity.

Gravity is a "theory".

Go, float away.

>god might be too far away
>god might be too small
>god might be made of a weird type of stuff
I don't think you're getting the concept here. This stuff applies to an insanely powerful alien AI or whatever. Most (intelligent) religion-y types are going to say this stuff exists mentally, not physically, and not "it was real in my mind" as much as "reality is a dream in the mind of God".

Meme magic hits the same sort of conceptual territory, baka desu.

Oh shit.

Someone proved a god exists scientifically?

Post the article.

Also, no.
God knowinh your future means that, when he created you (your soul), he was sending you to hell far before you were able to chose to do sin.

Belly bottons means you were born from an woman.

Not from clay or someone's rib.

>Stances of this type have the memetic strength of tissue paper
Show how it's flawed

>I only believe in what is material.
You won't believe me, but this has no real justification or consistent definition. Materialism is just the highest-status worldview where most of us grew up, we believe it because of that.

>agnostic atheist

>I don't know if I believe that God doesn't exist

If he moves a mountain with his will alone, creates a new color, resurrects the dead without anything but his hands, breaks the rules of nature as we know them effoetlessly and travels the universe in less than half of a second, then yes.

God must prove he is god to be god.

But, i would not praise him.
If he is the christian god, as depicted by the bible, he is nothing but a mass murderer.

Emotions are reactions in your brain.

So, they do not really exist as a physical being, its a human concept.

For example, "love" does not exist per se, but it sets a parametter of what reactions are considered "love."

Incorrect. You know why God killed all those people? Because they were evil.

Satan killed good people.

God saved the only ones who were worthy and then wiped out the rest. The contradictions you mention don't exist. If they had any validity at all, we would have stopped studying the Bible years ago. There is a reason scholars study it in the original languages. Translations are goofy. God is real. And you can still be saved.

>Someone proved a god exists scientifically?
>Post the article.

Logically, not scientifically. Summa contra Gentiles makes a strong case for God, spend an hour or so reading about the necessary terminology, like potency or movement (Feser is known for making Thomistic metaphysics "accessible" for your average reader with no philosophical background). If you do this, you're good to go, it's a great book.

They are chemical reactions to stimuli. No stimuli, no reaction. Why do some people love certain things while others may not love that same particular thing?

It is much deeper than oh it's just a reaction and that's that!

He killed the entire world aside from Noah's family.
He tortured Job for believing in him.
He burned down an entire town.
He turn a woman into salt.
He supports slavery.
He, since he knows the future, intentionally triggered the original sin.
He set up a system where "bad" people get punished for eternity, not letting them regret their actions.


#notmygod

youtube.com/watch?v=tcGQpjCztgA

Sure. If you ask a Christian why people should follow Christianity, you get answers like this:
1. Because it's true.
2. Get into heaven.
3. Follow the will of God.

These are all answers that only make sense if Christianity is true.

But it seems like your reasons are like this:
1. Makes people nice.
2. Makes people happy.
3. Good for civilization.

These conspicuously don't hinge on the truth of the claims, so it sounds bullshitty and unconvincing. A group of peoplewho are Christian only for these reasons will end up dropping everything important about it. See: Unitarians.

Similar Example: You might be able to kick your unhealthy bacon habit if you thought Allah hated it, but you can't convert to Islam specifically to kick bacon because you don't believe it, and "I need to stop ruining my arteries therefore Islam" is not convincing.

disclaimer: i am not a christian plz no bully me fedoras i am just explaining how belief works you have to translate to a totally different mental space to make sense of other peoples worldviews

>logically, not scientifically.

Sorry, but you losr my interest there.

I agree.
Your mind.

Do you have proof it is capable to reach the astral realm?

Nigger

Now go and take those arguments to a priest in person. He will do more than a good job at setting you straight. Also to most of those, all I have to say is so? God can never be wrong. And no, knowing something will happen is not the same as doing the actual action causing said thing. Are you 15?