Socialized Healthcare?

Men of Sup Forums, can you give me your thoughts and redpills on healthcare?

Why do people want the same healthcare system that the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Cuba, Communist China, and countless other socialist nations had?

Why do people think that it will be cheaper and better than private healthcare when Canadians (at least before Obamacare) came down to the US to get treatment?

To what extent does wait lines exist in single payer nations?

Is the US really behind the world on this?

And if single payer can't work, then what is the solution?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_healthcare_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States
nypost.com/2009/03/26/canadacare-may-have-killed-natasha/
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

If you want socialized healthcare, the only way to even remotely make it feasable would to be deport the foreigners. Then it would still have to be strictly distributed so that those on it wouldn't become dependent, or abuse it. But if someone wanted to do that they would get called "Nazi"

I would pay into the system if only people of my own race / community can use it. The fact the left wants to open our borders and have me pay for everyone in the world who can make it here, is quite frankly rediculous.

Single payer could work if our budget wasn't completely fugged. The only positive that communist country's healthcare had was free childcare. The rest of it was mostly shit. You know why cuba's healthcare improved? Because after the fall of the soviets that country had no oil imports due to the blockade, same with prescription medicine. This forced the population to turn to walking, biking, and growing their own food which dramatically improved their exercise and diets.

You can't have a single payer system in a country of 330M where only 45% of people work, and whose median income is shit tier compared with the cost of living. You would have to increase taxes dramatically, meaning, the cost of healthcare would still be just as expensive as before, only socialized cost.

The upside is you won't be denied healthcare based on income. But your standard of living will decrease in the short run. Thats why I didn't vote for Bernie

It won't allow competition, which is what fosters innovation in the medical industry.

There's a reason why the United States has more Nobel Prizes than the rest of the world combined, and over half of these prizes are in physiology or medicine. The US is responsible for the vast majority of the world's drugs, technology, and techniques.

If we went to socialized healthcare today (and we could afford it because we wouldn't need Medicare or Medicaid anymore), the entire world's standard of healthcare would stagnate. No one is going to spend billions of dollars engineering the new wonder drug if regulations force them to charge $1 per pill for it. How fucking long do you think it will take them to recoup their R&D costs? They won't do it. You need to let them charge what they want to make a profit, and the natural competition between different pharmaceutical companies will not only drive down prices but will drive better and better advancements.

Deregulate healthcare, unshackle the industry if you want to see more breakthroughs.

>we wouldn't need Medicare or Medicaid anymore
you cant be serious.
Of course we would still need both. Both and much more, that is what a single payer system is supposed to accomplish.

Collective bargaining might accomplish a more affordable system but what would most likely happen is the government would become an insurer and just outbid other insurers

We don't need socialized anything.

We need to criminalize insurance companies refusing to cover costs, slipping in fine print, and refusing to cover.

They make billions in profits each quarter on the backs of suffering Americans, and in turn are allowed to worm their way out of having to spend out any of it to actually preform the job the people are paying them to preform.

It's like they are allowed to force everybody else to through into the pot and rounds in a poker game, and then they are allowed to take all of the money off the table before even seeing the river.

A fucking cake baker isn't suppose to be allowed to refuse service to anybody based on their lifestyles and choices the baker doesn't agree with, but these insurers are allowed to discriminate against you and refuse coverage and services based on your lifestyle and changing states of health, and keep ALL the profits??

Knock out this rigged system first, and teh rest of the dominoes would fall into place.

PAY MY HEALTHY

this

This. With all the laws and regulation today, (((healthcare administrators))) are a huge cost.

Throw out the illegals.
Correctly charge fatties and druggies more for their bad decisions.
Ramp costs to match the aging, especially the retired and essentially uncover-able (AKA, Frequent Fliers).

C A N C E R

well, see, no it can't. Why can't it work?

Because when things get free people start to take more and more and more of it. If we provide prompt, high quality healthcare for free, more and more people will ride the system until it breaks under the strain/becomes not prompt/becomes shitty.

Its happened time and time again with everything we directly subsidize and we need to stop that shit.

>Of course we would still need both. Both and much more, that is what a single payer system is supposed to accomplish.

No, we wouldn't need either because a universal single payer system would replace both and would ultimately be cheaper because everyone would be part of that system.

The main problem with socialized healthcare isn't the dollar cost of the healthcare, it's the cost paid when 100 years later people are still dying of the same diseases. Right now it's not so bad because every other country with socialized medicine can still rely on the United States for innovation, but if we go socialized then nobody will ever have any better healthcare than we have now.

Why should I care about other people? Does anyone even have a good argument for that?

The only time government healthcare would be okay in the USA is if it was done by the states, and not the federal government.

That being said, all government healthcare is terrible and I oppose it on the state and federal level.

I too do not like that idea - but that's a lot more manageable and is within the purview of state's rights if they so desired.

So you're advocating for so much more regulation that the companies end up being choked out of the market.

Eventually you'll have one of two behemoth companies.

How is that any better than single payer?

----------

As to the overall question of this thread, you have to remember that insurance companies don't actually provide healthcare. If we were to go single-payer, you would still go to your private doctor or hospital. The only difference is that the govt would be billed.

Basically exactly as it is currently for medicare/medicaid.

Deregulation comes with its own problems, but long term is clearly the better choice. Per usual, socialism would work great short term, though, but fuck the short term, I got mine, but we gotta start thinking about what people are gonna do 20-30+ years down the road.

We're in deep shit as it stands right now.

Because in the case of Healthcare it actually works for some reason.

This innovation argument is the biggest pile of bullshit regurgitated regularly.

How the fuck can you ignore the vast amounts of research and advancements made in countries with socialized healthcare (Japan, Germany, UK, etc)?

And, no they do not sell that shit exclusively in the US.

Some would still fight to push science forward without a significant profit motive, but most would not. I wish this wasn't wrong.

SO FUCKING CLOSE

>*wish this was wrong

Every one of current insurers who currently are allowed to make MASSIVE retained profits gaming a broken system, would make FAIR profits from a repaired system that required them to INSURE a patient's costs correctly.

The Paymaster system could naturally lower the claimed prices of their services and resources if they are having guaranteed coverage rolling in instead of gamed haggling.

Innovation could still be supported and encouraged.

Patients who could easily be helped could be, instead of not even seeking medical care for fear of incurring unknown massive debt.

You are proposing that these corps would suddenly lose all profitability (and the ones that wouldn't legally DO THEIR JOB of insuring costs should), but no, they can still receive massive profit from their clients, but with the caveat being required to fairly and legally payout their end of the health coverage gamble and retain fair profits.

just 'cuz everyone's wondering, last shitpost about it I promise

capping the prices on drugs and treatments is the only way to fix healthcare.

...

Wouldn't that be similar to the government telling companies what limit they can sell their stuff for? Wasn't that a big problem that contributed to the economic crisis of the 70's in the US? Seems to me that when government caps prices, stuff doesn't get sold anymore.

How about: If the rich wish to find cures and medicines for their problems (because they get the same kinds and amount of them as the poors, at the end of the day, being rich doesn't NOT make you human), then they can use a reasonable portion of their holdings to support R&D, and then disseminate it back into the public arena.

Which does already happen, but could to a greater extent.

I see your argument and its merits, but I have very little faith in the insurance industry and their relationship with certain elected officials.

Who's to say that they won't be continuously breathing down Washington's neck to ease up on regulations for whatever bullshit reason they come up with?

And what service do they actually provide besides being an army of actuaries and bill collectors?

I honestly believe the government could do the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, I am vehemently opposed to the idea of govt clinics/hospitals etc.

What fucking timeline are you posting from? Americans go to Canada for health-care, not the other way round. And the Canadian system was largely modelled on ours.

There is only one reason/argument why America doesn't adopt the same system which is considerably cheaper to the taxpayer, delivers better outcomes and doesn't in any way preclude private health insurance or treatment. That is big pharma. It's true by far the most effective drug treatments come out of the USA, because there is economic incentive for US drug companies to spend a lot on R&D. The rest of the world does benefit from this, like when a popular drug goes generic and I get to pay $4.00 (if it's listed on the PBS) for the same box of pills that might cost $150 in the USA.

>Why do people think that it will be cheaper

Because the US government already spends more per capita on healthcare than lots of other 1st world countries.

Which is mental, considering it over covers a fraction of the population that other 1st world systems do.

what does it mean to be dependent on healthcare? who goes to the doctor every day? what do they do?

the us doesnt fund medical research. you know who does?
China.
Theyre 2 steps away from curing cancer with CRISPR and Trump is too busy cutting programs to fund his golf

canadians would go to america for healthcare when they were on long waiting lists for stuff like hip replacements

Honestly the best solution for America is just to roll back the Federal government to its intended size and let the states do whatever the fuck they want on healthcare, there's no way anyone's ever going to come up with a national program that will make everyone happy.

Single payer is completely impractical for a country the size of the United states, Bernie is a senile retard and his supporters were all naive college kids. If blue states want to try out single payer at the state level they should be able to, but they will have to figure out a way to pay for it without Federal money.

I agree with your overall argument, but I'll just add that the R+D the Drug industry focuses on is mostly that which will produce the best financial return, not necessarily need.

What you essentially end up with is a dozen new statins (cholesterol reducing drugs) and diabetes meds instead of advancement in "less popular" diseases.

Also, the federal govt is by far the largest funder of R+D in the world. Far more substantial than pharma or charities.

We must secure the existance of our people and a future for white children.

Why not use UK model for free health care?

Well, that's where the upstanding patriotic citizen whom put's their strength and spirit behind their elected officials and helps to direct them to good decision-making leadership and legislation comes in, my friend.

Also Early 2018 Trump (who has already been proven to be upheld by the above) de-fanging, disbarring, and dismantling the legislative lobby system.

This is a stupid fucking argument and serves no purpose.

Don't know anything about UK healthcare system, care to elaborate?

Big Pharma for the win!

PAY

>the road to hell is paved with good intentions

Sorry, no fucking way

What is your tax rate over there, again, Bong?

Do the majority of your employed and productive citizenry enjoy covering the living costs of the destitute and unwilling?

Feel free to answer w/o including for VATs.

...

Muh free healthcare is a right
>pic related.

"dependent on healthcare" is a meme. Republicans literally can't come up with a real reason why single payer is bad that isn't demonstrably untrue

This

>who goes to the doctor every day? what do they do?

I remember watching a documentary on all the different healthcare systems in different countries. One doctor they interviewed said that usually lonely old people almost visit him daily, cause they just want someone to talk to so they come in all the time complaining about aches and pains and such.

EAT HEALTHY
GO TO BED HUNGRY
START PHYSICALLY ACTIVE HOBBIES

You mean apart from its being completely unaffordable for a nation this size with a welfare state as overburdened as it is?

We must secure the existance of our people and a future for white children.

Muh, but god don't make no mistakes, and, muh, god made McDonald's, muh diabetes, they, muh, gonna take my feets, muh.

This

Size is completely irrelevant. The US has a higher GNI than many countries with single payer systems and they have no problem making them work.

Most doctors only want to accept patients with private insurance.
If you need a psychotherapist you might have to wait over a year to see one.
Your government health care isn't obligated to find you a therapist or pay for you to see one that only accepts private insurance until you get another one.

Lots of patients go through cycles of inpatient urgent care and then being without a therapist.

Issues with market-based healthcare is it's defining feature: it's market based. Companies and hospitals will do whatever they can to minimize costs, which in a great many cases leads to sub standard healthcare.

Now a state-based "single payer" system is flawed if your country is full of low IQ niggers and obese subhumans, meaning the strain on the system will end up being crippling in the modern age.

>There's a reason why the United States has more Nobel Prizes than the rest of the world combined

And yet it places only 15th on Nobel prizes per capita. Nothing to get hyped up about.

Australia has socialized healthcare and yet is leading the world in a few specific areas of medical research.

Then you have the problem of researching medical issues that have no marketable value, but are of no less importance.

>No one is going to spend billions of dollars engineering the new wonder drug if regulations force them to charge $1 per pill for it.

Nigger having regulation and making profits aren't mutually exclusive. Just because you don't make back your invest a hundred times over doesn't mean it isn't profitable. Regulated medicine costs doesn't mean the company will go broke.

Your whole post is just full of shit now I think about it.

NHS gives people security and frees your head for important things like education, starting familiy, getting good job. You should demand it from your government. That's not communism, it gives dignity to the people. I'm quite horrified seeing american people die because of no moniez for medical care, it's a disgrace. You pay 800b for military and their pew pew tools, 400b to bail out big oil and walmart. Would be a start to cut this shit a little to keep american people healthy.

Instead of insurance companies finding loopholes to actually covering their clients healthcare useage, it's a barely competent bureaucracy flatly denying coverages when a individual condition or a budget isn't met, and forcing people who have no other recourse than medical service into massive incontestable debt.

Rich Canadians who can afford the best healthcare come to America to get treatment. Where do the poor ones go I wonder?

Tim Hortons.

Idk but Styx the pseudo went full retard today suggesting that we should scrap insurance all together.

Truly retarded. I agree the govt can't force us to but a product and that health and young people are subsidizing the fat and old while the sick and poor are making bad choices by using emergency rooms and living unhealthy life styles.

Nobody wants to pay out of pocket their hard earned.money to make sure some dumb poor fuck can find out he has some preventable disease in late stage when he goes to the emergency room.

Scrap the mandatory and the previous existing conditions. Open trade between state lines, slowly expand access to Medicaid but don't reward people for making stupid health choices.

But fuck Styx that is dumb. Insurance is a service you are paying for so your doctor's will serve you.

If you scrap insurance altogether then doctors and hospitals shouldn't be forced by law to serve you. Healthcare eats so many costs already and doctors are taking a huge cut in service fees by going through insurance because it guarantees payment that is already negotiated.

Unless the police start knocking on people's doors to collect medical bills, doctors would have no incentive to serve people.


Fuck Styx

and yet, countries on single payer systems are on average healthier than America.

People tend to believe 'insurance' means insuring you, and not insuring that services you WILL require WILL be paid in agreeing to serve you. Yep.

That isn't really fair considering that America has more people than other countries, so of course the stats would be slanted.

the only redpill you need to take concerning socialized healthcare is fuck off you filthy commie

The USA pays just under double what Canada pays for health care.
The nations are similar in size to population density and general culture/lifestyle.

The rate of care outcomes is close enough that it's not really a factor when stacked against the cost.

The claim that the US pays for the world's R&D is comical when you look at the public finances of pharmaceuticals which all spend more on advertising than R&D. The claim that the US is too fat is also stupid when the rates of obesity are close to be within a few percentage points to most other developed nations and in no way justify doubling the cost over other nations.

That the US government is somehow more incompetent than other governments also fails to withstand inspection.

What is true is that the US healthcare system(s) because each state has their own, are massively wasteful and overcharge on almost everything.

Step one: National insurance coverage, no more state by state garbage.
Evaluate to see if that drops costs. After we have a sound 20 year period then we can look at if we need to expand into a real single payer system.

how does having more people slant the stats? that doesnt make any sense

Correlation does not imply causation.

Since there is no overriding profit for drug and medical manufacturers to be made in managing sickness' in countries with NHS, medical services are forced to rely on either using imported resources that tax their NHS budgets to death, using existing (perhaps even naturally occurring) "cures" on patients to remove them from their service by proclaiming them now "healthy!", or ghost-lighting them (for years in some instances) directly out of returning for service and proclaiming them "cured/healthy!". And then fudging their statistics on who is "healthy" due to their "care".

PROOFS PLZ OR GTFOOH

AM I GOING CRAZY?!

NOBODY FUCKING REALIZES THAT THE REASON HEALTHCARE COSTS ARE SO FUCKING HIGH IS BECAUSE THE SUPPLIES FOR HOSPITALS ARE LUDICROUSLY OVER FUCKING PRICED.

GOD FUCKING DAMN!

OPEN THE MEDICAL SUPPLY MARKET AND MANDATE THAT ANY NEW DRUGS HAVE A 10 YEAR PATENT LIMIT.

FUCK THIS GAY EARTH AND THESE GAY NIGGER PLEBS WHO DON'T ANALYSE SHIT!!!!!!

The one benefit that I will concede to countries with NHS is that their medical services get to utilize more of their time and manpower in finding the root causes of a patient's problems to then direct them in correcting. Instead of being forced into the symptom management treadmill to make any kind of a profit windfall.

Again, that is a system of the insurance companies being allowed to use loopholes in patient coverage, which created the Paymaster System of haggling over the prices of medical resources and services.

Patch the loopholes, and force insurers to pay out claims fairly, and that system would self-correct.

>Why do people want the same healthcare system that the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Cuba, Communist China, and countless other socialist nations had?
Because it's also the same system that Japan, Australia, France, Sweden and countless other capitalist nations with higher life expenctancy and lower healthcare costs have.

>Why do people think that it will be cheaper and better than private healthcare when Canadians (at least before Obamacare) came down to the US to get treatment?
American healthcare is the world's most expensive before and after the ACA. Canadians would only cross the border for bullshit elective surgery or to skip wait lines for their non-critical treatment.

>To what extent does wait lines exist in single payer nations?
It depends how important it is or not. If I presented to the emergency department right now with a broken leg I'd be put straight through. If I presented with a swollen knee and I was in a bit of pain but coudl still move around and would need scans etc, months.

>Is the US really behind the world on this?
Yes. So far behind. Just look at the way GDP per capita correlates with life expenctancy, infant mortality or countless other health statistics and you're way way outside the curve.

>And if single payer can't work, then what is the solution?
Single payer does work.

Fucken face facts man. Your whole healthcare system is setup to maximise jewish profit. Obamacare jsut stopped the jews from denying coverage to the really sick and gave the poor a bit of help getting jew coverage.

>the solution is less regulations!

You're a good goyim.

>wanting to correct a system that allowing yourself to remain a slave to is being a good goyim, makes you a good goyim

Healthcare is a good thing but Americans don't understand they need a federal insurer for their healthcare and not private ones. The federal insurer could negotiate treatment prices and regulate what you're paying. If more people with coverage are in the system, insurers and hospitals have no reason to charge outrageous insurance and treatment fees. What Americans don't realize is that they get jewed harder from private companies which just used Obamacare as an excuse to drive up insurance fees. Obama also failed to regulate insurance fees for mandatory enrollment.

Socialized medicine worked perfectly for years in Europe and Canada when everyone was white and all paid taxes

That's the real redpill on the subject

I still refuse to believe that raising the price of a 20 year old drug to impossible levels is due to R&D costs

if you can not afford your healthcare you do not deserve it.

Actually that's basically how it's done in Canada per province. All the stories about "Canadian" healthcare being third world are actually just Ontario healthcare

How much do you pay in, how much do (((they))) want to use to pay your services. But then those (((others))) want more money than (((they))) can pay. There's your problem.

Except for, ya know, that liiiittle niggling detail of all of the importation of patented machines, medicines, procedures, specialists, research, products, and general resources tanking their NHS budgets from the get-go, riiiight??

>fidel castro stole peoples blood to sell before murdering them
>cuba's healthcare improved

I want to be a pet toy property of the US government. EVERYTHING FREE! including my asshole

It worked back then because everyone had way more disposable income and there were less competition on the job market. What happened was that Boomers created a bloated healthcare system and now we are facing a natural reduction in services on top of less dispisable income and higher productivity and personal stress which itself leads to people needing more treatments.

>only Ontario
Only other cases are people who need really rare treatments

>roll back the federal government and let the states do what they want

Yes and then you get disorganization like the EU or USSR. What's next? States having their own diplomatic missions and seats in the UN?

>"I want to held hostage by jewish insurers, pharma corporations and overcharging hospitals, but at least they're not the ebil gub'ment!"

part of the problem is doctors dont give a shit about costs because insurance foots the bill if there was no insurance and people had to pay themselves for every little detail they would make different decisions

your argument is demonstrably untrue.

10 Canadians come to the US
> Canadians use American Healthcare
> ignores hundreds of Americans that go to Canada for treatment and prescription drugs

user, Canada pays way less per capita and has similar or better outcomes than Americans while covering everyone

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_healthcare_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States

It's not even a debate

> japan australia and so many other nations have socialized medical systems, dont you want to be part of the cool crowd?

argumentum ad populum.
even if every nation on earth adopts a failed marxist system, we dont have to jump off the bridge with you.

> canadians only came to the us for elective surgeries...
lies.
nypost.com/2009/03/26/canadacare-may-have-killed-natasha/

> sure there are lengthy waits and death panels, but who cares, its FREEE*

* crippling taxes dont count

> life expectancy and infant mortality
the US is far more "ethnically diverse" than canada, and our illegal alien population skews the figures beyond usefulness.

> single payer does work
you mean govt run medical systems?
we used to have "single payer", in that if you needed a doctor YOU paid for it.

now we have a fucked up system of overlapping insurance companies and medical corps each trying to deny liability and squeeze every dollar from the govt, each other and us.

> helps the poor
not the "working poor" it doesnt.
only those who could afford the new higher costs, or went on the indigent system were helped, everyone else got fucked in the ass by obongo.

All those details were true because we didn't have globalism and open borders. Boomers bought into open borders globalism and nonwhite turd world immigration

Still almost 4 years left until Trump will be re-elected, and you think there will be a U.N. left? lol

>you paid for it
Back when wages were actually good the economy actually worked and there was no globalism and no overinflated living costs

Socialism is cancer, removes all accountability from people and makes them dependent on gibs.

Healthcare is the only form of socialism I'd be ok with. Working class families shouldn't go bankrupt because mom has to get her gall bladder removed for $28,000.

>nypost.com/2009/03/26/canadacare-may-have-killed-natasha/

Hospital for a town of 9,000 people. Doesn't have a standby neurosurgeon. One person dies from a potentially treatable injury.

This is justification for spending double what Canada does.

"Within minutes, she was offered medical assistance but declined to be seen by paramedics."
"About three hours after the accident, the actress was taken to Centre Hospitalier Laurentien"

Can only work in a pure neo-fascist ethnostate.