Ja. Without an organized government, you're going to be taken over by warlords. Libertarianism is the middle east of politics.
Nathan Powell
Daily reminder that Hoppean libertarianism ain't 420 blaze it faggotry or johnson tpye "Libertarianism".
Ayden Cruz
Reporting in for Mi General. youtube.com/watch?v=5rsb7dT6sEM Was just about to post a general but kept hitting the wrong button, kek. Phoneposting worst posting. Anyway, how you goys doing?
Justin Cox
And why would that be ? An "organized government" would have to be formed in first place. Since it will apply violence on its own people to even make sure to "keep order", the own "citizens" would not tolerate such thing in first place, because the very moment it does something that is not approved of 100% of the "citizens", it goes from voluntariness to unvoluntary action - violating the NAP and facing repercussions in form of domestic terrorism, counter-economy and so on.
You argument is therefore invalid.
Christopher Barnes
Without a centralized state military people would turn to market solutions for private defense
Below is a link to Hoppe's take on the subject, I have not read it yet myself but im sure he adresses the topic you're intrested in. its not that long a read either. may look around the contents.
Ancaps are a bunch of Sociopaths that only want a world where they can get away with anything
Lucas Brown
Not when you acquire a reputation for murdering anybody who opposes you, especially those who seek to establish a monopoly on force. The tree of liberty needs to be washed by the blood of commies.
Angel Johnson
Nah. Warlords along with their armies will be flayed alive and buried in salt.
Ethan Mitchell
Quite good. Keeping the pace of spreading the freedom lel
Dominic Rogers
Nope. We believe in the Non-Agression Principle - that of course does not apply to those who don't believe in it.
We don't want the government to get away with having a monopoly on force. We don't want them to get away with taxation.
If it isn't agressive, it's not "getting away with". You have the mentality of a statist sheep. You are the Jews' cattle.
Isaac Jackson
Saved. We need to have a "Poster of the Month" award. Before the generals took off (so to speak), it would have been based Portubro, but I keep seeing you post a lot. Keep it up. Heil Hoppe.
Carter Carter
not an ancap, but i tend to agree with them more often than not... what's your point?
Julian Garcia
The NAP also states if someone use coercion against you, you can defend your self in anyway you want
Aaron White
They're not sociopaths, they're just childish. They were Libertarians at one point, altruistic, ignorant, and they decided to go deeper down the rabbit whole at hit a point where they came to think they were smarter than all the other Libertarians.
People are animals. We have animal desires and motivations. People are not inherently good or moral, upbrining in a stable society makes us that way. The idea that a nation where 100% of the land is privately owned depends on every single individual being moral and good natured. One large entity could destroy massive tracts of natural resources for whatever reason, and everyone would have to abide it because it was their property. Mountains could be flattened, entire forests removed, rivers diverted. One person could absolutely change the ecosystem, and that would have indirect consequences on an immense scale. Libertarians have no problem with this because they're altruistic cucks. Individual freedom is not a right wing policy when it creates undesirable trends. Allowing illicit markets, addiction, and other degenerate behavior is extremely leftist.
People are not born civilized.
Elijah Campbell
Yeah I kinda started keeping the threads up some days ago - whenever I see there ain't a general - because I work mostly from home, so that ain't a problem
Ethan Perry
>private defense That's one of the things in this ideology I disagree with. Merc armies sound dangerous as fuck, shouldn't your country be defended by patriots who genuinely love it and belong to units/regiments with history and esprit de corps? It's one of the concession I'd make for a state
Logan Green
degeneneracy and moral degredation is a result of egalitarian tolerance. "its okay to be gay" social norms and anti-discrimination laws. Tolerance is a failed socialist project that taints everything it touches today.
in order for a libertarian society to exist realisticly people must enact the most extreme stance of intolerance towards low lifes and degenerates. those who disagree are hurting libertarianism.
Juan Murphy
soldiers today are paid, so would private defense. also who says your army wouldn't be part of your community and proud to defend it?
Jack Ward
Yeah right, it's not like the things you describe aren't already a problem in today's """civilized""" world.
You're just being ignorant of the fact that when people/corporations would attempt such things, the consumers would just abandon it - getting insurers to work etc. - because they don't want their environment to be destroyed.
The market will make sure that the most profitable behavior will be established. And that's not today's kind of "what you can't harvest now, you can't harvest later"-attitude.
Wyatt Bailey
What's wrong with that? Are you a cuck who wants to cave to any pressure from muh state? Jesus, that's pathetic.
Carson Rodriguez
Great work. We're salting the earth with yellow pills.
Carter Brooks
No I general hate the state more than I hate corporations. Im centre right by the way
William Wright
That's the point. Today's soldiers are payed, too, and .... hopefully .... defending their country, because they want it save. The difference would just be that the covenant/community has no monopoly on violence contrary to modern states, thus, making international warmongering inefficient and unprofitable - apart from violating the NAP anyway
One issue that pops up with Libertarian/AnCap solutions to any given problem is the attitude of >Well we can't predict the obvious outcome of any situation where government oversight would help, but when the inevitable problems arise we'll deal with them afterwards with the free market!
Widespread use of private military forces is one such issue. Even basic food quality assurance is an issue. A producer could sell tainted product, kill a million people, and the immediate product would be "Just be from someone else." Some business might step up and say "Oh, we decided to test for that one thing that killed all those people, so our product is safe." That marketing angle might get them the lion's share of business, until the product is tainted with something else that kills people. Rinse and repeat. Everyone will keep doing the bare minimum, and full AnCap society has no incentive for a court system to enforce legal liability, and force all producers to operate with a certain level of quality assurance. A society that is incapable of providing a base level of security for certain things is not a society.
>Yeah right, it's not like the things you describe aren't already a problem in today's """civilized""" world. Except they're not. Huge parts of the country are protected, there are environmental regulations, government programs to mitigate and reverse damage done by chemical spills. If someone ruins a protected forest they're going to prison. No single person can destroy a river without consequence.
The free market is not a solution. If common sense tells you of an obvious problem with a certain course of action, that action should probably be legislated against to prevent it and avoid the situation all together. If your solution is just "lol wait and see" then you're an autistic man child, the exact antithesis of what creates civilization.
John Harris
Degeneracy is a result of subsidy of marginal behaviour. When you stop giving money to dysfunctional individuals, they have a choice between bettering themselves (because you're free to not hire a druggie) or dying.
Stable societies breed lefty faggots. Conflict breeds strong people, and there's always going to be conflict in a true right-wing society. There's going to be faggots who think they can do anything they please in a propertarian system, and somebody's got to put them in their place, be it insurance companies or uninsured individuals. Liberty is the freedom from restraints of a monopoly on violence, not the freedom to do anything you want.
As soon as you turn the society conservative, it will be near impossible to revert to (((liberalism))) under a Hoppean AnCap/paleolibertarian system, since people shun degenerate behaviour and insurance companies drop those who give them a bad name. If an unethical "insurance company" is created to protect those who violate the NAP, then you have a target to take out. It's not rocket science.
Christopher Murphy
...
William Ortiz
Yes, most of the defense forces are made up of men who fight for duty as well as money. Either one alone makes for a shitty merc, and insurers who hire them know this - if they've read The Prince.
Camden Gomez
>the rich burghers and merchants of medieval Italy were too busy making money and enjoy- ing life to undertake the hardships and dangers of soldiering themselves. So they adopted the practice of hiring mercenaries to do their fight- ing for them, and, being thrifty, businesslike folk, they dismissed their mercenaries imme- diately after their services could be dispensed with. Wars were, therefore, fought by armies hired for each campaign. . . . For the first time, soldiering became a reasonable and compara- tively harmless profession. The generals of that period maneuvered against each other, often with consummate skill, but when one had won the advantage, his opponent generally either retreated or surrendered. It was a recognized rule that a town could only be sacked if it offered resistance: immunity could always be purchased by paying a ransom. . . . As one natural conse- quence, no town ever resisted, it being obvious that a government too weak to defend its citi- zens had forfeited their allegiance. Civilians had little to fear from the dangers of war which were the concern only of professional soldiers.
Jace Baker
Then what's wrong with defense from coercion? A corporation can not force you on gunpoint to do what they say. If they do that, they turn into a government.
Parker Phillips
see
Levi Stewart
doesn't the harmful products issue happen now all the time? how often are cars recalled because of possibly deadly failures, the company has to take action to prevent harm of his products as he fears legal action and market resistance in these cases. I don't see how it would be different in a private property society.
Josiah Ward
You've seen the ancap memes
Alexander Davis
That's a quote from Rothbard's "Anatomy of the State" p.49, quoted himself of F.J.P. Veale, Advance to Barbarism (Appleton, Wis.: C.C. Nel- son, 1953), p. 63.
William Hall
Wanted to post before the quote
>muh warlords will destroy everything
sorry for the mess up
Luis Diaz
>memes
cmooooooooon
Christopher Powell
Degeneracy is literally hedonism, and hedonism is the end result of extreme individualism. A person seeking only their own pleasure as an individual with no regard to higher purpose or responsibility. A government can only enable degeneracy as far as the culture allows. If the culture is devoid of drive for the collective good then it is inherently always going to trend towards degeneracy. If the individual is held above all else then the culture is degenerate. A man is not an island unto himself. A man has a duty in life to create a family and raise them well. It is not the individual that is paramount, but the family.
Libertarianism and AnCaps seek to create an extremely hedonistic quasi nation, to that point where no real government exists in the case of AnCaps.
Our system now is extremely far from perfect, but we still have legal liability. We have a court system. We can sue companies for causing harm, but also for negligence in not acting to prevent avoidable harm. We have a government that enforces consequences on our behalf. Thats the benefit of a state. This doesn't exist in the autistic manchild AnCap fantasy world.
Sebastian Robinson
For fuck sake in a thread earlier today some sperd was arguing that all lawsuits should be voluntary, a defendant should be able to pick his own judge, and if he didn't agree to the terms of the suit he shouldn't have to be held to any legal standard. Thats the level of degenerate nigger logic that AnCaps and Lolbertards are utilizing. They're dysfunctional.
Jacob Sanchez
Is that Hoppe? Machiavelli, on the contrary, stated that mercenaries are not necessarily to be trusted, as their only loyalty to you is your gold that you pay them. Raising paid armies from your own people who train with weapons because otherwise they're not eligible to make decisions in their covenants would probably be the best of both worlds.
Ayden Morgan
Daily reminder That good white folks could finantially support having more children without taxation, and even worse our tax money that could go to our children is subsidizing niggers to have tons of children that don't plan to take care of their children anyway and instead spend the money on 20inch rims and drugs.
I think you have a misunderstanding of the rigidity of the soceity we advocate for, we believe the functions of the state could be managed without coercion and that degeneracy would not be protected from social conservative discrimination. we wont see eye to eye on this.
Noah Morales
see
Zachary Parker
AnCaps are a silly crew with a ridiculous ideology. But if they convince people to be somewhat more libertarian that's cool.
As long it's OK to shoot communists.
James Harris
>selling a tainted product Enjoy having not one, but multiple private armies at your doorstep. Still worth it to poison millions of people for no reason at all? If food providers want to make sure this doesn't happen, they leave the testing to the insurers themselves - because then, any deaths will be on them and thus they will be the target of backlash, not you. The only power of the government comes from guns - and the belief in the magical dust of legality. Take that away - in a civil war, for example - and you see that the government has no choice but to treat its citizens better than the other factions do. That's a market principle, because civil war is just a more lethal form of competition, with the ultimate cost being death. I hate to side with the Stirnerites (although Stirner was not as idiotic as them - he was quite based, in fact), but they're right in this matter - government is a spook.
Jackson Young
They're memes and not reality. Partly it's ironic ancap shitposting as a coping mechanism, partly it's just putting wild statist hallucinations on how an ancap society would look like, partly it's the Hitlerjugend misinterpreting our ideology.
William Powell
I agree, there is a horde of "ancaps" that equate non-agression to passificsm or "universal non-violence" We believe it is just to use force upon aggressors.
adam kokesh is a staple pinpoint of this degenerated form of volintarism. he uses non agression as a way to fuel his egalitarian faggot nightmare.
I originated these threads to push back against these types. I want to reclaim libertarianism. bring it back to its reactionary roots and purge the commies.
realistic libertarianism is right-libertarianism. we can argue about non agression all day but at the end of the day force is being used all around us and we should use force to retaliate. peace and love is a failed communistic ideology that must be smashed/
Brandon Clark
this is the best one holy kek
Grayson Reyes
What do libertarians think of this non-libertarian FAQ? I consider myself a classical liberal and not a libertarian because I agree that market failures such as externalities, monopolies, asymmetric info justify limiting markets in certain cases.
>Degeneracy is literally hedonism, and hedonism is the end result of extreme individualism. A person seeking only their own pleasure as an individual with no regard to higher purpose or responsibility. Let's say you're an insurer in an ancap society. One of your clients turns into a trainwreck - starts making meth, housing whores, doing stuff not against the NAP but very upsetting to anyone around you. The neighbours want him gone, but he's under your protection, so they give you a choice - them or that degenerate. What choice will you make? >collective good That's the combination of the good of individuals. If they don't get along, they will cut the problem off and carry on. >duty A man has a duty to live and carry on his genes. That derives into other things. However, expecting a man to do this automatically and not as a result of the most profitable way to go about things is foolish and the bane of civilisation. Men don't betray their own for no reason - they do so if they're fed up with how their own have treated them.
Paleolibertarians and Hoppean AnCaps seek to create a nation which is composed of smaller parts with the individual and his property being the smallest. He's part of a household and a family. They are part of a neighbourhood. That is part of a community. That is part of a town. That is part of a city. That is part of the country, a.k.a. the land on which the nation resides.
Elijah Russell
That was a fag arguing AGAINST AnCap, not for it.
Michael Baker
This.
Elijah Lee
When are you liberfags gonna wake up and realize that the only school of thought that realistically addresses the issues facing humanity is represented by the Fourth International?
Permanent Revolution is the only way forward.
Christian Lee
>we believe the functions of the state could be managed without coercion Friedman stated that a government's only three functions should be to provide for the defense of the nation, enforce contracts between individuals, and protect citizens from crimes against their persons and property.
None of these things can take place without coercion at some level. Administering any of these requires the government to spend a great sum of money, and as the government itself is not a for profit entity, this money has to come from taxation. A purely voluntary society is nothing but a leftist Commie fantasy.
Sperglord AnCaps wouldn't even agree to those three tenets. They'd say everything should be privatized, or it simply wouldn't need to exist. Its more than ironic that they call themselves capitalist at all when they fail to grasp the primary driving force behind it. Capitalism exists because it is a natural evolution of hierarchical power structures. Exchange of goods and services from actors at different levels within the structure for a fee commensurate to their input at a rate the market will bear. The later portion of that encompasses all the potential competition and highlights the intricacies within market hierarchy. People competing against one another.
A government is a hierarchical power structure, it is the evolution of something that naturally exists. AnCaps hold positions that are at odds with natural order and human behavior. That is adverse to the creation and maintaining of a functioning society.
Levi Evans
NO. that nonsense is what drives the moral degredation we see today. those strategies are carried out by feminists, BLM, Antifa and only serve to keep good people divided and occupied with senseless bullshit.
Eli Johnson
>company sells a product they didn't know was bad >BETTER SEND THE PRIVATE MILITARY BECAUSE THATS A DEATH SENTENCE!
If negligence, gross or otherwise, is punishable by death, that is coercion. A free market does not exist because everyone must create unrealistic standards so they're not killed by mercenaries for a minor slip up. That unreasonable level of quality assurance would drastically raise the cost of everything, and there could be no undercutting in that market unless someone had their own private military protecting them. Who would act an an insurer for anything in this market? Why would a third party take on that liability(which legally does not even exist in your fantasy land) why would another company which would inevitably need their own private army to be secure be interested in this at all?
You're a retard if you think this would function. Full on Mollymeme tier delusional.
The power a government holds is the same power that a lock on a house door holds. 99.9% of time it keeps an honest man honest because the simple existence is a deterrent. Presence of law, presence of the legal system, fear of reprisal in a real justice system. That is the power of a state.
Caleb Cook
Thats fine if the state just served those functions. I would be much happier with that as a solution that our current mess.
I'm not the type to sperg out with "muh statism" I'm much more worried about leftism as the greatest threat to liberty. i'd like to see us complete the privatization of those services anyway.
Luis Wilson
That's cool but these threads all revolve around "muh NAP," praxxing, anti-consequentialism other insane bullshit. You people would be so much more effective if you just tried to point out how often the government makes our lives worse.
Encouraging shooting communists is another good strategy.
Ian Harris
Thats the thing, there is nothing coherent about AnCap views because every single AnCap tard will act as if his personal opinion is rule of law. If you don't recognize higher social order on any level then for all intents and purposes its fly by the seat of your pants. The only idea they all agree upon is that any violation of the NAP justifies self defense of any proportion.
What was once just a satirical joke has become an actual ideology held by retards here. Its inherently destructive. This type of horseshit stinks of Jewish subversion. Getting people to buy into destructive dead end ideology is exactly what a subversive agent would do to keep a group ineffective, splintered, and weak. The government did the exact same thing to various militia groups in the past. The same thing is playing out here.
Josiah Sanders
fuck govnmnt
Aiden Evans
t. Shlomo Shekelstein
Adrian Sanders
Yes I agree completely these threads have gone off the rails a bit. I don't want to debate the NAP. I want to direct us against the enemies, the left. overt communists to the leftists that have invaded libertarianism. hopefully getting libertarian branded as "evil" "racist" "alt-right" in the mainsteam would serve well to uncuck our movement and keep leftists away. this is a challenge because many libertarians (even my brothers in this thread) are opposed to alliing with the authoritarian right types, and somewhat justifiably so. There can be no libertarian future while the left is running amok. save the right for a libertarian future.
the state exists. and if it is to exist it should exist in our favor.
Owen Gray
Damn I remember these threads being sporadic and often times ending up archived with less than 20 posts a month or two ago. Looks like our dank OC memes and dedication made Ansnekistan a reality. Thank you Ameribro who did the FAQ and the (((Reddit))) page and thank you Germanbro for being here always and putting up with certain people who seek to divide us. Based allies.
Jayden Rivera
Yes, and thank you Based Portubro. You are a superstar in these threads. I'm still working on faq a bit at a time. I would like to re-write the OP message too, I'd like it to not be so cookie-cutter change things up a bit.
Jordan Phillips
>post AnCap propaganda >propaganda that would be targeted predominately at right leaning politically aware white men >propaganda that keeps them neutered by encouraging totally unrealistic goals >propaganda that is nothing more than "must state is bad" while ignoring the real cause behind rampant bureaucracy
You're a good little goyim, aren't you? Doing what your masters want, probably without even being paid. An ethnically homogeneous society gives rise to a high responsibility and high trust culture. If that high trust culture is fostered into social duty to family and nation then it gives rise to individuals who act with a sense of duty when creating and working in government. That is what we had when this nation was founded. The lazy minorities in government jobs, the lack of responsibility, the absolution of group, the just another drop in the bucket mentality used to justify endless greedy spending. That doesn't exist in a culture where people care for their own. The solution starts with whites Balkanizing and pursuing the ethnostate and traditionalism with family values at the core of society.
AnCap ideology is literally a subversive kike diversion. Stop being anti white.
Elijah Howard
I'm honestly taking a step back and letting other people share the message for me now that the seed is planted. I still visit there threads and am planning on making some dank new Hoppewave soon, but for now I'll lurk here and answer the toughest posters and shills. What good is a carriage if we don't have strong horses to pull it?
Eli Torres
...
Ethan Kelly
Yeah I've taken a back seat position since germanbro started hosting. I will however want to op soon. We need direction now I think the thread meta is stagnating now that we have a larger population and we need to do something or we'll just be a punching bag like cg
Hunter Wright
We need more meme warfare and more videos, that's it. I'll start OPing /lrg/ and /hhh/ threads when I have the time too.
Isaac Gomez
>We believe in the Non-Agression Principle - that of course does not apply to those who don't believe in it.
Behead those who insult the religion of peace
Brody Sanchez
What about Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom"?
Jack Baker
It's not behead them for not believing. It's "behead those who take action against us." Replace the Islamists with the communists and apply that to PVV, National Front, the radical right, etc. and add a highly decentralized message on top.
Jason Jackson
You need a coherent ideology with concise real solutions to problems instead of verbose excuses that skirt around issues and depend on the magical free market. You need to purge out the AnCap retards from your ranks who have no idea what a nation even is. You need to think on the outcomes of policies rather than just the principles behind them.
Libertarian ideology can lead to a stable and prosperous country so long as it isn't over zealously pursued like a cult religion. The retards who just meme and call everyone a statist are only doing you harm. Everyone who advocates for policies that enable and encourage degeneracy is your enemy.
Landon Morgan
Hayek was not AnCap and as far as I know there was a schism between the Austrian School where one group followed Hayek's minarchism and the other followed Rothbard's anarchism.
Carson Lewis
He has a lot of good points though for example he totally btfo's the concept of social justice
Julian Nelson
In first place, I'd say to use the discord thing of Sup Forums to organize a bit
Parker Young
Yes, I like Hayek as well but since that image was about AnCapism I posted the main works.
Hunter Sanchez
btw there was this guy on the 2nd Hoppewave video asking the name of the song. It's Resonance by Home at 80% speed.
Aiden Adams
Okay that makes sense then
Isaac Gomez
Bump for freedom
Kevin Foster
SON,
Aiden Parker
bump
Adam Nguyen
nah, once we have reverted to a dynastic monarchy with a landed aristocracy, ideas such as "anarcho capitalism" and "libertarianism" will be grounds for life in a dungeon.
You idiots can bloviate on "removing the communist fags" all you want. The authoritarians are watching, and they don't have a economic ideology that isn't machiavellian.
Elijah Barnes
I was just shitposting famalam I agree with you on the content, it's the form which was misleading so to speak. >We believe in the Non-Agression Principle - that of course does not apply to those who don't believe in it. Literally says that the NAP does not apply to those who don't believe in it, while they're in fact still protected by the NAP as long as they don't break it, which is pretty much what you said. That kind of detail is important to convince people I think, if it can be interpreted as "a law doesn't apply to me because I don't believe it's a good law, even if I don't break it and the dialogue on this is closed" then fuck it said law is probably shit, displayed like this it's possible to dissmiss it without even looking into it
Matthew Gutierrez
>dynastic monarchy with a landed aristocracy in other words, semi-Ancapism
Ayden White
>Libertarianism and AnCaps seek to create an extremely hedonistic quasi nation, to that point where no real government exists in the case of AnCaps.
Hedonism is not the point or goal or either libertarianism or ancap. You should read about the objectivist ethics instead of spouting your bs assumptions as if they were gospel.
Chase Johnson
bonk
Connor Stewart
>Come to lolberg thread to shitpost and troll lolbergs >Entire thread is Hoppe and Pinochet
I'm actually impressed
Good job guys
Nicholas Baker
A link to Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics should be in the OP.
