Take a look at this, /pol:
What do you think about this?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Quran say that the infidels must be exterminated, and whoever does not believe in Allah doesn't deserve to live?
Seriously, who are they trying to fool?
(date is April 2nd so no, I don't think it's an April's fool)
wow, page six in mere seconds!
Muslim here. I think you should read the verse right after that.
Take the red pill.
>holy book up to interpretation
>most people in the Muslim world don't know shit about Islamic jurisprudence
>the vacuous, literal reading of the Quran (as done by ISIS, for example) is just as logically valid as any other reading because lol religion
>in stead of trying to reform Islam, or perform ijtihad on the islah, most Muslims prefer to whinge about how ISIS's interpretations aren't as valid as their own
>Westernized Muslims are only making it harder to reform the religion because they're not seriously grappling with the justifications the Quran gives Jihadists
You guy are all cowards, tribalists, and morons. In stead of defending Islam against outside threats, you should work to reform your medieval religion to expel Jihadists groups so that people will stop hating you.
How do you feel about corporal punishments in accordance with sharia law?
Instead of just saying that, can you please write what does the verse after that say?
You're right. Jihadist are the main reason why Islam is hated. But when it comes to expressing an opinion about jihadists, very few muslims condemn them clearly. Other remain strangely vague.
>You guy are all cowards, tribalists, and morons. In stead of defending Islam against outside threats, you should work to reform your medieval religion to expel Jihadists groups so that people will stop hating you.
Maybe it would be less medieval if Westerners ceased stealing their lands' resources and butchering their populaces.
>when it comes to expressing an opinion about jihadists, very few muslims condemn them clearly. Other remain strangely vague.
That's because they're too fucking tribalist. They see anything in the world that's non-Islamic as being at war with Islam, even the "moderates." What ends up happening is shit like:
>If Western powers don't intervene in Syria, it's because they're indifferent to the suffering of Muslims
>If Western powers intervene in Syria, it's because they're trying to wipe out Muslims
A lot of this is because, in most Islamic countries, if you try to propose secular reforms you get your ass killed. It's the job of Muslims that live in western countries, where they could get some protection, to speak out against Islamists in general and Jihadis in particular, but they fucking don't. Largely because all the lefty cucks not holding them to account for their co-religionists
>Maybe it would be less medieval if Westerners ceased stealing their lands' resources and butchering their populaces.
Fucking bullshit. Tell me, retard, what does American foreign policy have to do with Sunnis in Pakistan blowing up Shia mosques in Pakistan? What does it have to do with ISIS murdering, raping, and taking sex slaves en masse of Yazidi Christians who were born and raised in the same region?
Bigots like you, that think brown people only react to whites in stead of having their own ability of self-determination are the fucking problem.
You are truly a perfidious degenerate
Better be trolling there bubba
Oooo, you dun got stump'd.
>they see anything that's non-islamic as being at war with Islam
Yes! And with a collective paranoid attitude like that, how do they think it will end, if not with crazy fuckers throwing around their islamic truck of tolerance?
>secular reforms
Yes, I read a book about that topic. Written by a muslim living here in Italy, it says exactly what you've told: proposing a secular reform in those countries is pratically a death sentence. The author even said that Islam is basically all that's holding those countries back.
How did I get stumped? Iraq was turned into a shithole by our government.
I mean that's just a desperately bad line of argument, justifying your racist beliefs by saying anyone who contradicts them is the racist.
>Maybe it would be less medieval if Westerners ceased stealing their lands' resources and butchering their populaces.
Besides everything in your statement being completely null and void of proof, i'm curious about who stirred your head until you actually believed that
>inb4 TEH WURLD IS BAD BECAUSE JEWZ
>poor things they don't know better
how does this help? The next obvious step is conversion and why would they want to let bygones be bygones.
The issue is that, since the Last Caliphate of the Ottoman's the only thing the Muslim world has known as 'secular' are secular arab dictators and communists. There is a group in the UK known as Quilliam that is an anti-extremist organization run by Mulsims and ex-Muslims, that are working to destigmatize such concepts by introducing new words into the Arabic Urdu. Unfortunately, because they suggest that there may be something wrong with extremist Islam, they don't get nearly the funding nor the recognition they deserve.
>Bigots like you, that think brown people only react to whites in stead of having their own ability of self-determination are the fucking problem.
Totally agree. Back when I was in school, I remember the lefties were all about "'they're violent 'cause 'murrricah!", ignoring the fact that during the last centuries muslims have proved to be able to kill each other very well even without Westerns' intervention.
>Iraq was turned into a shithole by our government.
Iraq was turned into a shithole by a "secular" dictator who overreached when dropping nerve gas on the Kurds and the Kuwaitis, you near-sighted mongoloid. Saddam was the one who drained the marshland, Saddam was the one who set their oil wells ablaze, Saddam was the one who had hundreds of thousands of people murdered and thrown into mass graves, Saddam was the one who harbored international Jihadis and granted them diplomatic immunity. The West did their best to save the region from that idiot. Sure, it wasn't handle nearly as well as it SHOULD have been, and The West definitely has a lot to atone for, but the problems in the Mid East are their own, and no amount of handwaving can excuse the murderous zeal with which Jihadi groups operate.
>The West definitely has a lot to atone for
Exactly my point.
be aware that they are not against violence, but against the way how that shows weakness.
Ok, the only secular governments they've known are dictators and communists, but the world is clearly showing that there are other forms of government, not brutal like those.
I didn't know about the Quilliam. Hope they can carry on with their task, it's rare to hear about muslims that are actually doing something against terrorism.
So... What? Because the west has fucked up that means...? That people like ISIS should be allowed to mass murder and rape without repercussions? That people who share their ideology shouldn't hold them to account for interpreting their scripture in the most violent way? Should these people not be held account for their actions?
You bringing up The West is a complete red herring that does absolutely nothing to help the world, or bring us to a solution. It's just obstructionist bullshit so you can take the moral highground
yes, you are correct. im 100 fold more concerned with islam dominating the countries it spreads to than i am with terrorism.
fuck islam. fuck allah. fuck muhammed. fuck muslims.
Nice point of view, I didn't consider that.
Maybe the reason it lets me take the moral highground is the right thing to do, ever think of that? I doubt it. I honestly doubt it. Just like the rest of em you're caught up in this whole "fashwave" phenom... but it's fuckin nothin kiddo. Grow a pair and grow the fuck up.
The west has nothing to atone for
Naive cunts like you believe that every western soldier that served there during the conflict was shooting civilians on purpose
>The west had no business there
The west defi-fucking-netly had business there, saddam was trying to destroy entire populaces just to expand his power. The west didn't intervene as an easy opportunity to kill everyone, they intervened to keep saddam from nerve gassing the entire levant
Go fuck yourself, you naive, uneducated, brainwashed fucknut
Ya trolled me good. Though, I do appreciate you taking the roll of an ill-educated lefty to help flesh out my arguments for those watching, and my own sake.
But Muhammad marrying and raping a 9 year old girl doesn't defame Islam?
>being this delusional
i guess you're really invested in this thread huh kid
ya got rolled and all your friends trying to help you wasn't enough to save you from the power of righteousness and christian morality
yall goin to hell on the course youre currently on
reconsider yourself
been wanting to drop pic related for a while
we need to talk about islam sensibly to be able to get over the current ideological impasse
>1300yr old religion unchanged since Muhammed died
>The 2003 invasion of Iraq is why Islam is violent!
Fuck off nigger you are too stupid to comprehend
Despite how Sup Forums seems to collectively shit on him, "Islam and The Future of Tolerance" is a great book by Sam Harris and Majeed Nawaz. It's short, and highly informative.
Nobody in Europe has to read anything to do with Islam, they should be completely ignorant of it because it has nothing to do with them and in the future you cunts will be kicked back to your shit holes were you can fuck your goats and cousins and the Europeans can prance around enjoying their life completely ignorant of that shit pot of a religion named islam.
>>holy book up to interpretation
retard found
the quran is meant to be taken literally as it is the word of the prophet muhammad (pbuh)
>mfw the silent jihad
You can take it literally in different way, my friend. Arabic Urdu was not codified until about 200 years after Mohammed's death, and it is unknown exactly when the first Quran was written, or by whom. This means that many linguistic and jusiprudential arguments can be made regarding the meaning of the literal passages. For example, the Hadith concerned with the 'killing of apostates' can be read to mean 'the killing of (political) traitors' in stead. These arguments rages for centuries before the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and should be encouraged to come again in the modern Islamic world.
Trust me senpai, it will never work. Please fucking bear in mind that these are a group of people who wear their trousers short and pee sitting down, because the prophet did so. This is how pedantic they are about their ideology.
Even Muslims who call themselves moderates secretly support jihad. They have to. Their book says so. And even if you ask them their views, they don't owe you the truth, because to them you are filthy kuffar not worth telling the truth to i.e.an excuse to use taqiyaa.
Agree. Nothing ever happened justifies the murder of civilians.
Even if Western countries are to be held responsible (which I don't absolutely think so), why innocent citizens have to be killed?
Yep. They've been violent since the beginning.
Agree with that, too. We aren't supposed to know everything about Islam, is that's not my religion. THEY should start behaving in a civil manner, not us reading a holy book just to understand why do they behave they way they do.
Because if that's the point, then I demand every muslim reads the ENTIRE Bible and go to church courses, so that they can comprehend the christians.
I understand that, but there are sect of Islam that are chiefly spiritual and are not Islamist in their mindset, like the Sufi. Not everyone wants their religion forced by state doctrine, they believe that the truth of Allah will reveal itself to those who look, and can't be genuine if forced upon them. These groups should be encouraged to speak out against their fellows, and offer legitimate, alternative readings of the Quran like mentioned here .
Muslims are not "the enemy," Islamists are the enemy, and Muslims should be recruited to help fight them
>they don't owe you the truth
If I remember well, there is a sura in the Quran that says that lying to an infidel is acceptable.
>Swedish flag on football
The future of Sweden
This is nothing new, Muslims have been insisting that Muslim terrorism is Jewish false-flagging for a decade now.
Sup Forumsacks and Europeans buy it.
>Muslims should be recruited to help fight them
You know as well as anyone that this is impossible and a completely unrealistic fantasy dream.
I agree with you that Europeans SHOULD have the right to be completely ignorant, but the point is that EUROPE CANNOT AFFORD TO BE IGNORANT ABOUT ISLAM ANYMORE, because Islam is a very real threat to Western values.
Our ignorance about Islam has basically led to the downfall of first Britain and now Europe. Trust me, if politicians had known what the Quran says about rape, unbelievers, slavery etc, there's no fucking way they would have let swarms of them in from the 50's up until now. Our retarded politicians assumed it was a happy clappy religion and those poor Muslims dindu nuffin. There's a REASON India went fucking HAM on them and threw them out of their country.
And now we can't get rid of them, because they are 2nd and 3rd generation British citizens.
I suggest everyone research the truth about Islam and see for themselves what the Quran says and WHY people like ISIS can excuse their actions using the Quran, because it's written right there, and can be interpreted any way they like. I've been researching it and it's fucking scary. It's a death cult.
It's not. Like I said, there are already organizations like Quilliam that are already starting to pave the way. Last bit I heard, they flipped a leading member of Hizb ut-Tahrir.
No truer words spoken by the Islamist than "We love death more than the infidels love life."
Your entire premise only works if most of these people begin to admit that there ARE problems in the first place. Most wont, citing the whole "they were just mentally deranged individuals" when referring to terrorists.
Admitting that your religion that you have practiced your entire life, a religion that is considered perfect I might add, has a problem, is something most people are not willing to do.
>people begin to admit that there ARE problems in the first place. Most wont
You're right, which is why there needs to be pressure from the outside generated by the average citizen (meme'd by people like us). The pressure is growing, as more and more people are starting to see through the big lie of "The Religion of Peace"
An extremist puritanical sect like Wahhabism is actually a very new doctrine, 1800's I believe.
However Sufi are a minority, they are heavily persecuted and accused of being witches, and have been genocided in the past in their homelands. They have a beautiful interpretation but they are literally killed for following it. And I know certain Muslims, like Iranians for instance, are actually very Westernized and cultured, and look down on Pakistanis and Arabs as filthy backwards morons (mainly bc Iranians are Shias)
You are a fool if you think a Muslim would take the side of a kuffar against a Muslim, even if they are Shia, Sufi etc. Put it this way: if killing fellow Muslims and denouncing them as apostates or infidels is acceptable, imagine how they view whites and non believers.
so islam defames islam? I think he's just taking the piss at muslims. he knows full well what islam is about. He's basically gloating at the failure of islamic jihad.
You're not wrong, but we agree on the same key facts. What I'm saying is that outward support of those rare Muslims who DO want to see a reformation within their barbaric religion, as opposed to a blanked condemnation of all Muslims, is going to be more beneficial to society, and more realistic as a goal.
>pressure
The more pressure from us , the more pressure from them because their religion is under attack (what they claim).
It's an unsolvable problem at its fundamentals.
You can not get a religious muslim to admit their religion has inherent violence in it.
Regarding 3:28, Ibn Kathir writes, "meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly."
He quotes Abu Ad-Darda', who said "we smile in the face of people although our hearts curse them."
>rare Muslims who DO want to see a reformation
eh? muslims kill hypocrites without hesitation. Don't expect muslims to ever lead a reformation. islam must be banned outright.
Like Holocaust denial or "hate speech?"
Fuck that. I know you can make an argument for that being a false equivalency, but no Westerner should ever ban the expression of ideas if they are to call themselves a proud Westerner.
islam is a criminal gang. ban it like ms13 or a mexican drug cartel. 'Muslim' is synonymous with thief, murderer, rapist.
>expression of ideas if they are to call themselves a proud Westerner.
>westerner
There's your problem.
Some ideas such as the calling for death of people are not western, and a ban against this is not anti western
Ban the koran?
Bad idea
Ban imams from calling for murder or purging of people?
A different story