Hello Comrades. This general is for the discussion of Marxism-Leninism, the ideology of revolutionary socialism and communism.
Communism is the next stage of humanity following the capitalist stage.
What exactly is communism according to Marxist-Leninists:
>Communism is a stage of society in which the productive infrastructure is socially owned, and goods are produced not in order to sell for profit, but in order to meet a social need. >Communism in it's full form is a stateless, classless society that follows the maxim "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." >To achieve such a society Marxism-Leninism teaches us that we must replace the capitalist state, which is controlled by the capitalist class, by a socialist state, which is controlled by the working class. Then, a period of class struggle follows in which the capitalist class is liquidated by the working class. When the capitalist class has been completely vanquished, there will be only one class, the working class, and eventually the functions of the state will become indistinguishable from the functions of the society as a whole, and the state as such will 'wither away' as Marx said. marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/
>commies unironically believe they own the entire planet
Mason Rodriguez
>economizing in a commie society is intrinsically impossible
Brayden Hill
>the end game of commies is to make a broken capitalist society while trying to fix all the problems they created
Joseph Jackson
Nobody will seriously argue superiority or inferiority in a broad sense. The fact of the matter is evolution is real. Humans may be able to brave man made laws but not natural ones.
Every race has it's strengths and weaknesses in a physical sense. To argue that the process of evolution and it's laws suddenly stop at the intellectual level is nothing short of disingenuous.
For a group that claims to love "diversity" the left, and especially Communists, will do anything to convince people that our differences are bad.
Jaxon Stewart
>people that can't distinguish between individuals and collectives tend to not believe in human rights
Michael Rodriguez
Hello gomrades! XDDDD Dis general is for disgussion of margsism-lebonnism, da ideology of revolutionary socialism and gommunism.
Gommunism is da next stage of guckery following real society.
Wat exagtly is gommunism according to gommies:
>Gommunism is a stage of guckery in which the produgtive infrustrugture runs away from gommie country, and no goods are produced and beeple starve. XDDDD >Gommunism in full form is obressive, statist society dat follows maxim "gib gib gib!" :DDDD >To achieve gommunism we must replace broduction with murderous obressive rulers liek me, fug working glass beeple. XDDDD Struggle while I liquidate you all lol. When capitalists run away we win and I kill you all. Eventually the functions of state cease and state becomes murderous and indistinguishable from other gommies. Da state withers away liek da people. gommies.gom/fug/ gommies.gom/starve/
----------------------------------------- Da sdages of gommunism.
>Sdage one Bourgers aren't allowed to vode :DDD but otherwise da system is digtadorshib of gommies. Everything is stole by digtadors and digtadors rule all.
>Sdade two Withering All beeple who aren't digtador glass starve. XDDD Once glass disabears and we steal everything more beeple wither away. Bolice begome unnecessary as beeple are dead lol :DDDDD Central blanning begomes unnecessary begause sgarcity caused starving. Money is all ours.
>Sdage three Gommunism. No beeple. No food. My money. Much benis.
Levi Butler
Hello Comrades. This general is for the discussion of Marxism-Leninism, the failed ideology of revolutionary socialism and communism
Communism has failed consistently and claimed many innocent lives
What exactly is communism according to Marxist-Leninists:
>Communism is a stage of society in which the productive infrastructure is socially owned, and goods are produced not in order to sell for profit, but in order to meet a social need
What communism really is:
>Communism takes successful means of production and destroys them by removing any incentive people have to work, create, innovate, or excel >Because every aspect of communist society goes against human nature, a massive and oppressive government is required to enforce this vision. Anybody who disagrees with the dictatorship is either murdered or sent to a slave labor camp. These slave labor camps are required as nobody else will work since they are promised everything for free. This creates an artificial shortage of labor and threat-based economics which lead to inflated numbers and underproduction of goods. The underproduction leads to mass starvation. This can also be utilized as a weaponized false-famine to genocide unwanted populations holodomorct.org/history.html
Hello fellow brothers. This general is for the discussion of the leaf threat, the ideology of destruction and weak bantz.
Canada is the next stage of cancer, controlled by (((them)))
What exactly is Canada according to the truth:
>Canada is a stage of society in which the muslims and Trudeau fuck your ass every day and you like it because you are not a racist.
>Canada in its full form is a shitty and retarded society that follows the maxim "I let them fuck my wife because I’m a good husband."
>To achieve such a Canadian Society, Cuckism teaches us that we must replace the honor and history, which is controlled by the racist white men, by a (((cuck state))), which is controlled by the (((cuck class))). Then, a period of rapes follows in which the white men are liquidated by the (((cuck class))). When the white men has been completely vanquished, there will be only one class, (((the cuck class))), and eventually the rapes are going to become normal, because muh refugees and (((multiculturalism)))
Hello amigos. This general is for the discussion of Spainfag, the larping, basement-dwelling originator of daily autistic commie threads
Spainfag is the next stage of cuckoldry who follows the failed idea of communism
Who exactly is Spainfag according to everybody who sees his threads:
>Spainfag is an unemployed /leftypol/ drain on society who advocates for gibs cuz he is too lazy to work. He has never produced anything and is thus a waste of resources. He preaches “from each according to their ability and to each according to their need” because he has no abilities and needs to die >Spainfag in it's full form is a sperging, no class cuck that follows the maxim “lalalala I can't hear your logic” and argues anything you say with cringey pedo memes that are poorly photoshopped to support communism >To achieve such a high level of autism Spainfag must have been dropped on his head as a baby and been molested by family. His mind is now controlled by the zionist-communist class. A struggle will occur in which the people finally fight back and the zionists will be liquidated by the working class. When the zionist class has been completely vanquished, there will be many classes based on peoples' individual abilities and work ethic, and eventually the functions of the state will become minimized to ensure a free market with low taxes which benefit society as a whole, and the welfare state as such will 'wither away' en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
It is recommended to sage Spainfag threads and post anti-commie memes for maximum keks. Hoppean snake & Pinochet helicopter memes, and factual anti-commie infographs work best
Reminder: No one in the academic world is capable of defending communism.
Xavier Bell
Hello newfriends! This general is for people who have recently migrated to Sup Forums, the board of revolutionary political discussion.
Sup Forums is the next stage of shitposting following le reddit.
What exactly you need to know about Sup Forums at this time:
>Typing “sage” (without the quotes) in the options field when replying to a thread makes it so you don't “bump” it to the top (first page) of Sup Forums and thus make it more visible to people while making important threads less visible. >There are bots and people who intentionally spam Sup Forums with shit threads in an attempt to “slide” valuable threads off the board by overwhelming the limits (ten pages) of the board. >Anybody is welcome to post on Sup Forums as it is an anonymous board, and thus we get a lot of shit threads like “Communism General” and “It's Happening!” (when it's NOT) threads. Ignore them, or “sage” them if you feel the need to reply to their autism.
Sup Forums uses a wide variety of political ideologies including Nazism, Fascism, varieties of Libertarianism, and other mostly fiscally or ideologically conservative (right leaning) ideologies—libertarian, authoritarian, and centrist. See here: boards.Sup Forums.org/pol/archive
It is recommended you use the catalog with filters for optimal browsing and reposting this when you see people who unintentionally “bump” shitty threads.
>There are more versions of the Spurdo pasta Holy shit this is great
Justin Morales
Hello Ubermensch. This general is for the discussion of Fascism, the ideology of revolutionary nazism and national socialism.
Fascism is the next stage of humanity following the weimar stage.
What exactly is Fascism according to Nazis:
>Fascism is a stage of society in which the productive infrastructure is owned by the state, and goods are produced not in order to sell for profit, but in order to meet the needs of the reich. >Fascism in it's full form is a absolute white society that follows the maxim "gas the kikes." >To achieve such a society Fascism teaches us that we must replace the Jewish state, which is controlled by the Jewish race, by a national socialist state, which is controlled by the White race. Then, a period of race struggle follows in which the Jewish race is gassed by the White race. When the Jewish race has been completely vanquished, there will be only one race, the White race, and eventually the functions of the state will become indistinguishable from the functions of the society as a whole, and the state as such will 'wither away' as Hitler said. fascists.org/archive/hitler/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm fascists.org/archive/hitler/works/1848/nazi-manifesto/
Hello cucks. This general is for the discussion of Cuckoldry, the ideology of revolutionary open relationships and sexual desire.
Cuckoldry is the next stage of relationship following the monogamy.
What exactly is cuckoldry according to cucks:
>Cuckoldry is a stage of relationship in which the reproductive means of the wife are bull-owned, and husband gets to bed not in order to have sex with her but to prep the bull. >Cuckoldry in it's full form is a pleasurably degrading, bull-worshipping relationship that follows the maxim "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." >To achieve such a relationship cuckoldry teaches us that we must replace the standrad marrige, which is controlled by the husband and a wife, by a cucked relationship, which is controlled by the bull. Then, a period of prepping follows in which the bull is pleasured by the cuck. When the bull class has been prepped, there will be time for wife to get mounted by the bull, and eventually the functions of the husband will become indistinguishable from the functions of a porn shot fluffer, and his genitalia will 'wither away' as Marx said.
I don't have any websites but i'm pretty sure OP can help me with that.
James Roberts
Spain can you please at least change up the pasta or something? I don't think Sup Forums should be no commies allowed, but you are just shitting up the board.
Tyler Perry
I go to these threads to find new ones for my collection
Gabriel Hall
Strawman. >the end game of commies is to make a broken capitalist society while trying to fix all the problems they created Another strawman.
James Davis
A question for the communists of Sup Forums: If I want to keep my 40 acres of private property for myself, decide gets to enter onto it, and grow my own crops that I keep for myself, do I deserve death?
Jason Hernandez
I've asked Communists for objective metrics for subjective concepts for years and to this day I've not gotten a straight answer.
Jackson Brown
>Authoritarian states and people willing to kill for ideology tend to not believe in human rights* FTFY
Ayden Allen
The greentext block is complete generalization and conjecture.
Dylan Peterson
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Jackson Wilson
I should start saving them. Gotta appreciate OC when it comes along
Pic related
Jose Hall
>Knowing exactly what to produce would require you to first know the entire economy.
If only we could build a machine that was really good at computation of numbers.
Not saying socialism is good, just that arguments of what didn't work 50 years ago don't always hold true with changed in technology and methodology.
Also another solution would be to carry forward with our current system of ordering. A store sells or distributes goods they get from mid level suppliers. Suppliers meet demand by placing orders with producers. Producers share their production as best geography suits with proper risk management practices and distribution.
The bottlenecks in possible production need a means of deciding what to make but that's not always going to end in ruin.
Camden Stewart
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Jack Ross
so in that case, what incentive do people have to work in communism?
Gavin Carter
But then you run into the problem of who maintains the computers. Of who checks the data and confirms the shipments. You would have to rely completely on the belief that they and those who supervise them are incapable of using their position of power to subvert their fellows.
Evan Roberts
because people that don't work for themselves will want to work for everyone else
Austin Thompson
Even in the Soviet Union people got rewarded for working harder. What's more, many professionals (e.g. doctors, musicians, artists, programmers, and others passionate about their work) don't necessarily do their work solely to generate profit. They work because it's their passion.
Parker James
I wonder if humans will ever develop a means to conduct audits of activities to find errors or fraud.
Jace Carter
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Tyler Rodriguez
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Levi Robinson
Good point. Will the people conducting the audits also be just as trustworthy? Who audits them?
Just keep scooting further and further from the whole "stateless" and "classless" goals.
Jaxon James
>You killed off dissidents because they threatened your revolution, and you did this in the name of a leftist ideology It is like a strawman of a strawman. >Don't believe in private property That isn't a strawman, and don't give me the ten minute lecture on "muh personal vs. private property!" Based on real world examples What percentage of them work because "it is my passion"? Enough to run a society? And how many, say, sewage plant workers love to wade around in raw sewage and lose their sense of smell because "it is their passion". The number one problem economists have today is gathering the numbers, not computing them. By the time a recession is in full swing, economists usually have only just discovered it.
Kevin Howard
Oh, so they'll magically become selfless after money is gone, then? Is that how people work? Yes, but the garbage man that spends his day putting trash into a truck probably isn't passionate, the man who spends his day in the coal mines getting black lung over time isn't passionate. What's more, getting rewarded for working harder is simply just a form of capitalism isn't it? I thought the point was to make a "classless" society where everyone is on the same level?
Jaxson Perry
>that fucking spaniard that hates his job and makes daily communist threads
Oi, u know want cunt? U fucking suck at life m8 Cheers cunt
Aaron Cox
somebody answer my question please
Luis Jenkins
>Good point. Will the people conducting the audits also be just as trustworthy? Who audits them? How do we currently keep the police honest and not all in collusion with criminals?
Isaac Harris
Always enter these threads to see this. Keep it up. Not sarcasm.
Ethan Hall
Not a commie, but that depends alot on the communist. Most would probably confiscate it though. Very few would go in with the intention of killing you (this doesn't mean they won't later on though) In Soviet Russia they let people have tiny plots of farm land which was their own, funniest part was this resulted in like half the food coming from only 2% of the arable land as most peasants only farmed their own personal gardens.
Elijah Myers
>In Soviet Russia they let people have tiny plots of farm land which was their own USSR wasn't communist, and private property is not allowed under any form of communism. I just want to know if the anarchists, syndicalists, communists, anarcho-communists, marxists, maoists, democratic confederalists, etc. would just kill me or imprison me.
Cameron Hernandez
Inter agency and government oversight. And even then they don't catch it all. Organized crime and dirty cops are a real problem. Communism wants a removal of state and class, by doing so you remove the only safeguards we have.
Communism claims an end goal of being stateless and classless yet everything they propose requires some sort of hierarchy to make it function. It is a paradox that no Communist has ever fully answered or even addressed.
Henry Ross
Reminder that lefties are on the same level as furfags and ponyfags.
Benjamin Wilson
>The number one problem economists have today is gathering the numbers, not computing them. By the time a recession is in full swing, economists usually have only just discovered it.
Economists still model the economy rather than simulate it. The problem isn't the computational power today, but rather how economists want to use the data and what they know about computer science.
While it would be a bit of a change from how we do things now, a system that collected all translations at all levels would solve the data problem. Each sale and purchase reported as they happen.
Given that the NSA spys on every email, text and phone call we can collect that data for something as formalized as the transfer of wealth or in bizzaro commie land a cashless transfer of goods(?)
Alexander Rivera
Eh, probably not. Expropriation is already possible, though.
Jeremiah Nguyen
The belief that the planet belongsto them is an axiom required for you to state that property is theft. Meaning, that no, it's not a strawman.
The fact that your end game will always end up in an attempt to simulate a capitalist system is a fact, not a strawman. I stated reasons for why that's the case. Just because you claim that you'll magically end up in a society where you'll get to masturbate all day while smoking weed and not working, it doesn't mean that's the end game your ideas will lead you to.
I assume you are that little idiot that replied with "not an argument" while making 56 posts with no argument yourself in the previous threads, right?
Levi Thomas
You spend the first part of this massive sentence denying the data that destroys Marxism. Cute but not an argument. You don't even need IQ test to see how non white countries are undeveloped shit holes. The second part of your mangled sentenced is meaningless hand-waving. We clearly understand that racemixing is dysgenic. We clearly understand that a nation shouldn't lower it's average IQ by throwing open the borders to savages. Nice try shylock but get into the helicopter as quickly as you can
Wyatt Young
Hello gomrades! XDDDD Dis general is for disgussion of margsism-lebonnism, da ideology of revolutionary socialism and gommunism.
Gommunism is da next stage of guckery following real society.
Wat exagtly is gommunism according to gommies:
>Gommunism is a stage of guckery in which the produgtive infrustrugture runs away from gommie country, and no goods are produced and beeple starve. XDDDD >Gommunism in full form is obressive, statist society dat follows maxim "gib gib gib!" :DDDD >To achieve gommunism we must replace broduction with murderous obressive rulers liek me, fug working glass beeple. XDDDD Struggle while I liquidate you all lol. When capitalists run away we win and I kill you all. Eventually the functions of state cease and state becomes murderous and indistinguishable from other gommies. Da state withers away liek da people. gommies.gom/fug/ gommies.gom/starve/
----------------------------------------- Da sdages of gommunism.
>Sdage one Bourgers aren't allowed to vode :DDD but otherwise da system is digtadorshib of gommies. Everything is stole by digtadors and digtadors rule all.
>Sdade two Withering All beeple who aren't digtador glass starve. XDDD Once glass disabears and we steal everything more beeple wither away. Bolice begome unnecessary as beeple are dead lol :DDDDD Central blanning begomes unnecessary begause sgarcity caused starving. Money is all ours.
>Sdage three Gommunism. No beeple. No food. My money. Much benis.
Aiden Sanders
I don't believe in eminent domain, but the US government isn't going to throw me in a gulag if I don't want my property to have a railroad built through it. And at least I'd be compensated in the end if I wasn't able to successfully fight it.
Grayson Hill
>USSR wasn't communist, and private property is not allowed under any form of communism. It wasn't the final stage of communism, but it was a controlled economy which is generally described as socialism. They probably wouldn't, again depends on the commie. Most would just confiscate your land, but leave you unharmed. Not all trades are done in a manner that can easily be tracked, even though the NSA can IN THEORY spy on everyone, there are still major limitations. I don't know what amount of transactions are still done in cash, but I remember hearing it was something like 40%. There are also alot of under the table deals, international trade deals, etc. Gathering all of this data and having an accurate picture is still not feasible.
Parker Brown
>Inter agency and government oversight. And even then they don't catch it all. Organized crime and dirty cops are a real problem. But it is not 100% of every government and every police officer, so clearly some force is able to keep this in check. You need to explain why that force can't work in a socialist setting.
>Communism wants a removal of state and class, by doing so you remove the only safeguards we have. Expand on this idea with an actual explanation. How does having classes of people stop corruption? How does a state do that?
>Communism claims an end goal of being stateless and classless yet everything they propose requires some sort of hierarchy to make it function. It is a paradox that no Communist has ever fully answered or even addressed.
The checks to find errors or corruption are no more a hierarchy than having quality assurance checks on produced goods to find flaws. The QA people are not above or below the workers, they are just another step.
The police that enforce laws are not above people they are beside them. I make X product, a police officer makes Z service, a doctor makes Y service. We are not a hierarchy by requirement.
Brody Nelson
>Most would just confiscate your land, but leave you unharmed. And they're not going to confiscate my land without me putting up a fight, which means they'd kill me. So maybe I should have asked: If I don't want to give up my private property, do I deserve death (according to a communist)?
Daniel Taylor
Unless you hire people to work on your land, pay them a wage, and extract surplus value (profits) from them, which would make it private property, no issue will be raised over your piddly little plot. Otherwise, it's just personal property.
Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold, and it's not efficient use of the land, but eh. Commies have bigger fish to fry. Like mega farms.
Blake Jones
If you fight back, then yeah most communists would kill you.
Landon Sanchez
>Not all trades are done in a manner that can easily be tracked, I don't know what amount of transactions are still done in cash, but I remember hearing it was something like 40%.
All sales other than between individuals would have a filing of what was sold so you can manage inventory. Even for a service you would still record that a worker did something because they have associated material consumption, or at least a time when they are busy and can't be doing something else.
>There are also alot of under the table deals, international trade deals, etc. If your company is selling or buying something from outside the nation the government very much knows about it and that's a for sure if you are physically moving goods to another nation.
>Gathering all of this data and having an accurate picture is still not feasible. Covertly? No. By act of legislation that carries the force of law? We have had the technical means for decades.
Carter Diaz
>omitting the fact that collectivist agriculture killed millions, failed horribly, and was backpedaled within a decade Why are commies always liars?
Gabriel Foster
>extract surplus value doesnt exist. its time travel math, and you dont even apply it consistently
Camden Gutierrez
Great. So when your revolution finally happens in the 2070s, stay the fuck off my land.
Lincoln Butler
>Some force can keep this in check Yes, the strong character of the individuals. However this alone is not enough to maintain a functional organization. Without an outside force to decide boundaries for deviance the whole thing will eventually collapse >How does having classes stop corruption It doesn't and it was not the point I was trying to make. Communism wants a removal of class yet with a hierarchy you have one whether you like it or not. The goals of Communism are unreachable >They are not above or below a worker But they are in a very literal sense. By having control over the system that dictates corruption you have a great deal of power the average factory worker or farmer lacks. This places you in a what is functionally a higher class even if you don't call it one. >Police are not above the people they are beside them Again they wield power greater than the average citizen. You can say you view them equally but the police, and especially the people who command them, will eventually realize this and abuse the power they have. A strong moral character will slow this process but it will happen eventually.
Eli Anderson
The chinese governmnt holds similar views to you ,and they lease land equally to poor people.
That's why chinese farmers are forty times less efficient than South Korean farmers and that's why the Chinese are piss poor.
>Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold, and it's not efficient use of the land Then why land that is there to be bought and sold is actually more efficiently used than commie lands? That's a statement that can be easily be empirically debunked.
>Commies have bigger fish to fry. Like mega farms. Those horrible mega farms, making tons of food with little labor and making life easier for literally everyone.
Michael Collins
Soviet Ukraine Holodomor deaths: >7-10 million Irish potato famine deaths: >1 million Yes, collectivization really worked out didn't it?
Luke Morgan
I'm not a Maoist, I don't fetishize peasant farmers.
Carter Bennett
You haven't explained well enough what stops corruption from overtaking all police and government in non socialist nations yet. Or why socialist nations are more susceptible to corruption.
I'm not going to answer your other statements because it leads off on a side path and the key point is corruption.
Jason Jones
>All sales other than between individuals would have a filing of what was sold so you can manage inventory. Even for a service you would still record that a worker did something because they have associated material consumption, or at least a time when they are busy and can't be doing something else. Then everyone must immediately file every single service, I doubt everyone would file it or that all of this data would be gathered efficiently at this step. The filing process would consist of what exactly? >If your company is selling or buying something from outside the nation the government very much knows about it and that's a for sure if you are physically moving goods to another nation. But if I go to another country, work, then come back with money. Also black market deals and deals done between two individuals. >Covertly? No. >By act of legislation that carries the force of law? We have had the technical means for decades. We still use estimates for the number of people currently alive in the US, I don't think we have the technical means to do this.
Justin Ramirez
What mitigates corruption is government oversight, controlled by a well informed people. Communists suggest Democracy alone to answer the problem of peoples control but with such large populations and so many details the limits of Democracy on it's own become painfully clear >Why are socialist nations more susceptible to corruption Social governments are larger and more involved in the day to day lives of it's citizens. With increased size increased management and manpower is needed. As this increases the potential of corruption increases because screening for example a hundred auditors or officials is much more manageable than screening a thousand.
I hate to be "that user" but pic related brings up a lot of good points as to why smaller government, as opposed to socialism and by extension Communism, are more resistant to corruption.
Christopher Morgan
coherently and succinctly explain your ideology, please
Kayden Jackson
>Then everyone must immediately file every single service, I doubt everyone would file it or that all of this data would be gathered efficiently at this step. The filing process would consist of what exactly? Sales would be the sale. Services would be an invoice.
>But if I go to another country, work, then come back with money. You are outside of the economy for the needs of organization within the economy.
>Also black market deals and deals done between two individuals. Sure, but not to avoid reporting a transaction other than autistic slurge lords. Black markets are for illegal, controlled, taxed or unavailable goods. Or for avoiding regulation, taxation, or control over services.
>We still use estimates for the number of people currently alive in the US, I don't think we have the technical means to do this. We haven't created and funded an accurate census that has all the living and dead people. But tell me how hard it would be to centralize ever recorded birth and every recorded death? Very few people are born or die without government record.
Brandon Perry
I just want to point out "taxation is theft" is the same religious dogma. It's the only reason i enter the thread too. I never get tired of it
Grayson Williams
>taxation is theft" is the same religious dogma.
>I have self ownership >I own the entire planet earth >Same religious dogma
Josiah Evans
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Lincoln Cook
>Sales would be the sale. Services would be an invoice. That isn't really describing the filing process, if it is a centrally planned economy with price controls then how do you determine the price of the good. Also how do you determine demand from simply "the number of transactions" there are alot of people that would like to buy something, but do not due to price. And again, I don't think it is likely to be filed properly and even if just 5% of them weren't filed correctly, the entire system is jeopardized. >You are outside of the economy for the needs of organization within the economy. Explain this, I'm drunk so I don't quite see what you are saying. You are outside of the economy so you provided a service, and now you have money which is then in a different economy and used to purchase creating a demand that was not started with a transaction in the economy. >Sure, but not to avoid reporting a transaction other than autistic slurge lords. >Black markets are for illegal, controlled, taxed or unavailable goods. Or for avoiding regulation, taxation, or control over services. And they still make up a part of the economy. >We haven't created and funded an accurate census that has all the living and dead people. But tell me how hard it would be to centralize ever recorded birth and every recorded death? Very few people are born or die without government record. Probably pretty hard. How would you know "very little people die without government record" without government records. Also again there is alot of living people currently unaccounted for. All of these small little flaws add up and create a wildly distorted picture of statistics, like what was seen by central planners in the USSR. Yes we have better technology by a long run, but gathering methods are still far from perfect.
Colton Martin
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Alexander Lewis
>What mitigates corruption is government oversight, controlled by a well informed people. It doesn't seem to stop corruption outside of Northern Westernized nations.
>Communists suggest Democracy alone to answer the problem of peoples control but with such large populations and so many details the limits of Democracy on it's own become painfully clear What is the largest population that can function as a democracy? Would the US fail if it had double it's current population?
>Social governments are larger and more involved in the day to day lives of it's citizens. With increased size increased management and manpower is needed. As this increases the potential of corruption increases because screening for example a hundred auditors or officials is much more manageable than screening a thousand. But you just said that it was the government and the people that kept corruption in check. "government oversight, controlled by a well informed people."
And yet now you are saying that government oversight controlled by informed people can't keep it in check because it's hard to screen people. That's not really a moving argument.
Your picture manages to fail by the second post with unsupported assumptions of the economic situation; Using our current monetary policy as the implied default system.
Anyway, the long and short of the answer to corruption is to quote Homer Simpson "The Coast Guard".
The watchers of the watchers. You actually hit on this earlier. You select rare people that seek out and destroy corruption and give them the power to do so. You spend the huge amounts of time and effort to select the small number of people that watch the watchers. "because screening for example a hundred auditors or officials is much more manageable than screening a thousand."
You need to select the right people that will keep selecting people that will keep true to the goal of the auditors, and then bet the whole system on them.
Blake King
I only see it being the worker class and the non working class.
Angel Adams
Then the outside nations are clearly doing something wrong. The system is not perfect and it is not uniform for all peoples and cultures. Neither is Communism. >What is the largest population that can function as a democracy I do not know. However there is no reason to believe that Democracy by itself can efficiently govern millions of people >Would the US fail The US does not use Democracy by itself. We are a representative republic.
I said it helps keep corruption in check, I never meant to imply that it was an end all solution to corruption. If I did then I apologize.
>Last point How do you ensure the incorruptibility of these rare individuals who watch the watchers? Or for the matter the process of selecting them? I have no doubt that a small elite group of individuals could serve to purge corruption when it surfaces but I have great misgivings about them staying that way.
Eli Kelly
Ok its not exactly the same argument but its still religious dogma. what gives you the right to piss on a rock and say it's yours?
Just like taxation is tantamount to putting a gun to someone's head, enforcing property rights is tantamount to putting a gun to someone's head. The rule of law is putting a gun to someone's head.
So if you want your claim of property rights to have any meaning without a government enforcing it, you better stock up and start enforcing those rights yourself.
Property rights should be enforced because it's efficient and benefits society as a whole. Governments should be small for the same reason.
It's selfishness for mutual benefit, not selfishness for selfishness sake.
I might not even disagree with you at all on actual policy, but "muh taxation is theft" is just ideological nonsense
Nathaniel Hernandez
>That isn't really describing the filing process, At the end of a day every sale and invoice is transmitted and computed. Are the mechanics important? We both agree that we can transmit the data from businesses.
>if it is a centrally planned economy with price controls then how do you determine the price of the good. That is a whole PhD of discussion. >Also how do you determine demand from simply "the number of transactions" there are alot of people that would like to buy something, but do not due to price. Again outside the scope of the statement that we could collect almost all our economic data if we wanted to.
>You are outside of the economy so you provided a service, and now you have money which is then in a different economy So you brought back money from outside the economy. The exchange rate between currency deals with that. Best case you spend your outside money to buy outside goods. Worst case you bring back worthless money from outside and get pennies on the dollar in exchange because you think that money created by some other government means anything here.
>And they still make up a part of the economy. But wouldn't grow just to avoid reporting sales. We already collect an aggregation of your sales and purchases when you file your taxes.
>Probably pretty hard. How would you know "very little people die without government record" without government records. Because very few people that go missing are not reported to the police/government. Everyone else that dies or goes missing are accounted for. At the very least the government checks on old people to make sure they are alive and not just getting their SS checks.
>Also again there is alot of living people currently unaccounted for. Illegal aliens. >but gathering methods are still far from perfect. You don't need perfection if you can run overlapping imperfect checks. 5, 90% checks are good to 1 in 100,000.
Nolan Ramirez
>The US does not use Democracy by itself. We are a representative republic. Which in the case of the USA is a form of democracy. Republic means we don't have a monarchy. Representative means someone acts on your behalf in government.
Democracy means you get a meaningful legally binding say in your government. We currently use it to select a representative.
>How do you ensure the incorruptibility of these rare individuals who watch the watchers? Or for the matter the process of selecting them? I have no doubt that a small elite group of individuals could serve to purge corruption when it surfaces but I have great misgivings about them staying that way.
The trick is to find people that will have a strong sense of fairness and desire to stop corruption. But are also able to select people that have the same traits and most importantly the people they select will keep selecting people with the same traits without any drift.
That's the real trick. You don't want the belief to drift from the first goal.
Jeremiah Foster
How can you claim something is mutually beneficial if you have to force everyone to pay for it? If you have to force people to pay for it, chances are, they didn't judged it to be beneficial to them.
Hunter Garcia
Do you think laws are mutually beneficial?
Easton Richardson
People are capable of enforcing laws and agreeing to fund their judicial system without a government. In fact, the judicial system is typically self sustainable separated from government operations on most places on the planet, meaning, we funded such system without income taxation.
If a judicial system is mutually beneficial, then it would exist even without income taxation. You are implying here that it wouldn't, you are saying that everything the government does couldn't be done through a freer system.
Ryder Johnson
How can you claim laws are mutually beneficial if you have to use force to have everyone follow the laws?
If you have to force people to follow it, chances are, they didn't judged it to be beneficial to them.
