Should programming or computer literacy be taught universally from a young age a la verbal literacy?

I believe that programming and understanding using computers at a fundamental level, even down to the basic architecture, will be a universally required skill for humans in the economy of the near future. As such, it would make sense for us to transfer resources to the educational system to teach children about basic computer use, programming, architecture, etc., even at the expense of other subjects, some of which I do not believe are as vitally important to the future economy.

I believe that computer "fluency" will come to be as important and widespread as verbal literacy, and that we should be taking action to implement this in our countries ASAP. Not necessarily teaching our children about complicated data structures or algorithms like graph isomorphism, but simple, applicable things. What do you think, is this a good idea?

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i didn't read what you write,i just come here for the women and i'm going now.

Computers are shit and too hard to understand.
Stop using them.
Bought an Iphone and been happy ever since

Kids should be taught logic and programming concepts like state tables early on. These are pretty simple for even a young child to learn and will make it easy to learn more complicated topics later. I don't think very young children should be using computers or sitting in front of a screen for any period of time.

What for?
It's not like normies will ever program anything. Even programmers try to minimize the amount of programming they have to do.
Elementary and high school are for learning generally useful things like math, language, basic biology and chemistry.
Programming is not a generally useful skill. It's a specialized work skill. There is education for programming AFTER the basic education.

Other computer literacy I don't mind having in basic education.

t: programmer

Programming and basic computer literacy have and/or will become more and more important in our everyday lives or the economy though. Literacy used to be useless, but then things changed, the economy industrialized and new and more skilled workers with more specialized knowledge were needed.

With the current way of how things are going, with computer systems nearly omnipresent in every aspect of life and business and becoming moreso everyday, I fail to see how it wouldn't be a good idea to make sure the future is universally qualified to take on the inevitable omnipresence of computers.

t: Other programmer

less tech and more social skills. u kidz can't carry a conversation without a keyboard

Why the fuck should computer programming be taught?

In case you ever want to build a house in Java?

It's an insanely tiny niche that most normies never have or will see the point of.

because code monkeys are just that, and have no place in regular education.

education is by definition useless, what you do is a trade. i say lower the wages and offsource it all to pajeets and chinks.

programmers are horrible at math, they don't understand it most of the time they are worse than physicists at understanding what they are doing


most people don't understand what they are doing exactly , and that's the core problem


everything is being outsourced, nobody has a clue about anything and everybody is specialized and incapable to do anything by themselves

Shitposting 101

Honestly, most kids that finish high school can't even use proper grammar or can point to Germany on the world map without labels. I think teaching the general population on how to program is just a stupid idea. I rather they learn how to type, spell, and be able to do basic math.

Sure kids who excel at computers and logic should be taught to program at a younger age but this whole idea everyone needs to be a programmer is just flawed. It is bad enough as is that large percentage pf computer science graduates can't write logical code.

> Why the fuck should reading or writing be taught?
> In case you ever want to build a house out of books?
> It's an insanely tiny niche that most normies never have or will see the point of.
See
The increasing ubiquity of computer systems and the internet means it will be more and more important that more people know more about computers, computer systems, networks, etc. and how they operate so they can maintain or fix them in a completely computerized and interconnected world.

>Programming and basic computer literacy have and/or will become more and more important in our everyday lives
No it will not. It's actually getting simpler and simpler to use computers. UX/UI design is an incredibly popular field these days because all the tech companies are competing over who has the most user-friendly app.
I've never ever seen anyone been in a situation where they had to know programming unless they worked for a software company.

The only people who will need to know how to program are the people who do that as a living, same as with any other profession.

>With the current way of how things are going, with computer systems nearly omnipresent in every aspect of life and business and becoming moreso everyday, I fail to see how it wouldn't be a good idea to make sure the future is universally qualified to take on the inevitable omnipresence of computers.
Wrong, and you are retarded if you believe normies will suddenly become programmers/computer wizzes thanks to that java 1 course in high school. If anything they will hate it even more.

I think basic scripting should be mandatory, if only as a productivity measure.

Why sit there doing the same thing over and over again, when you can write a quick macro to do it for you, and move on to other things? That's useful for just about everyone.

Leave full blown programming for STEM students.

Computer literacy yes, programming no.

Literacy would be useful so normies can actually send an email without calling a pajeet call center, and it would also mean that current software wouldn't have to be altered in order to cater to people with no knowledge of computers, meaning it could advance quicker.

Programming isn't really necessary to teach in schools, most kids would never use it. As an optional subject that could be taken maybe, but as a compulsory subject, no.

No. Just like everyone shouldn't be forced to learn the language of music.
If some one is interested in it, they will learn it. Fuck off pajeet.

don't worry we'll make people who can't program for shit managers right away, before we have to deal with your shit code

Nah fuck off mate I want to keep my job

DEVALUE PROGRAMMING
MASS PRODUCE CODERS
GIVE EVERYONE A CS DEGREE
MAKE PROGRAMMING A MINIMUM WAGE JOB SO STEVE GOLDSTEIN CAN HAVE EVEN MORE SHEKELS
YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

That's much later to begin teaching than I was assuming anyway, I was talking about putting it at a similar level to basic linguistic literacy. Also the lesson plans would have to be carefully planned out and made using lots of educational and scientific research, we'd have to introduce people to very simple programming tools early on, possibly visual or logic programming without much actual code, by the time their verbal fluency or intelligence had increased somewhat we could introduce them to a language, but I would certainly recommend against a language as uselessly overbuilt with objects and unintuitive as Java, I'm not sure what language it would exactly be, possibly Python or C or maybe even a new language would have to be developed for it. But considering that most people can at least spell, read, and write after school then if we applied a similar curriculum for computer literacy and used a well-designed teaching set with a good learning curve I don't think it's impossible that many kids would have IT-tier or code-monkey-like computer skills by the time they were 15-18.

My thoughts exactly. Why the fuck would you want to devalue your position? Are you a business manage OP and are upset that software engineers cost too much? Fuck you

You can look at India, korea, or china for guidance on what happens when software becomes this trivial thing and isn't seen as real engineering, which it should be. You make like 20k a year.

To elaborate, you get code from Wang and Pajeet that you have to build upon and it's a fucking nightmare because they trivialize software.

I fucking live it! We have a code base we acquired from a company we bought out and we have these files that have 10k lines of code for simple web development shit and thats AFTER putting a ton of shit on the same line where you gotta scroll miles to the right to see.

Fuck OP, you triggered me so hard. This guy is right, computer literacy yes, programming no.

ai will make programmers obsolete LEARN A TRADE

I'm not saying to turn everybody into some Linus Torvalds, Bjarne Stoustrup or John Carmack-tier programming genius, you probably aren't going to be teaching them anywhere near the depth of stuff people would get in a good CS university curriculum, like advanced data structures, analysis of algorithms, set theory, type systems, compilers, etc., you'd just be giving them a rudimentary skill set, similar to a mechanic. We wouldn't be relying on low-skill people to do engineering at Google, FaceBook, etc., it's just something general-purpose useful, like scripting things to save time, etc.

You silly billy, we are the ones that write the ai that make your trades obsolete!

>tfw trying to transfer some pictures on a mac laptop for my mom

holy fuck if i ever have to use another apple product again I will kill myself. everything is hidden and so fucking complicated it makes my blood boil.

>everybody is specialised and incapable to do anything by themselves
that's the point thought

It's probably possible, but good luck trying to get AI to reasonably engineer how to do a good underwater or complicated welding job AND having a robot carry out the instructions in the physical world seamlessly to accomplish them nearly perfectly working with objects in the next 20-40 years.

What the fuck does programming have to do with using a computer?

Do you need to understand thermodynamics to use a car?
Do you need to understand Shanon's information theory to use a cell phone?

This whole fucking STEM/programming language/coding bullshit is really starting to piss me off. Unless you want to program a computer, you have no fucking reason to learn programming.

Ivanka Trump is an idiot and programmers are annoying fucks. Computer Science is dead and fuck you.

t; computer engineer

Please listen to this guy >turn everybody into some Linus Torvalds, Bjarne Stoustrup or John Carmack-tier programming genius

Dude after 3 years Bachelors we still have people in the college who can't programming for fucking life. So doing some shit in HS, no matter what you try.

There are enough subjects in CS that are appropriate such as: Logic and Math

>friend gets new iPhone
>she insists I check it out
>the phone automatically scraped all facebook and texts for photos
>find all of her nudes immediately in a nicely organized folder

Thanks Apple!

babby duck syndrome

it just werks faggot

*doing shit in HS won't help. If you want to be succesfull in programming, you have to do it on your own.

Some kids these days learn basic programming naturally from messing around with shit like game mods, in-game consoles, programming games. Also general exposure from being on the internet, you encounter code snippets regularly.

I don't think there's a benefit to teaching programming to everyone. I don't think there's a benefit to teaching physics to everyone either but who gives a shit anyway.

Let's ignore the fact that people like yourself are generally a bit quicker than the average joe.

>computer science is dead and fuck you.

t, jack-ass

Tbh I loved taking software development, would highly recommend.

Certainly would prefer kids take programming over some retarded shit like minority history or whatever.

>Unless you want to program a computer, you have no fucking reason to learn programming.
You realize the reason why we teach kids "anything" is because they are too young to know what they want or need.

If you were just left to do whatever you wanted as a child, you wouldn't be a computer engineer but a specialist in pissing your pants and Captain Crunch.

No

Normies need to get the fuck out

>you encounter code snippets regularly.
a good 70% of people only use google, news websites, facebook and youtube.

>You realize the reason why we teach kids "anything" is because they are too young to know what they want or need.
kids do not need to learn programming. if they want to make scripts to make their lives easier they can do that of their own accord, if they want to get into computer science they can do that of their own accord. a 10 year old has no reason to be fucking around with python.

>a 10 year old has no reason to be fucking around with python.
I don't necessarily agree...

This is true of me at least

Computer programming should be an elective starting with middle school.

Classical Logic should be taught in Kindergarten and never abandoned all the way through to the Senior year. The biggest thing our society is lacking is people not being able t see bullshit from others and themselves. Simply knowing about things like confirmation bias would make a world of difference.

people who really get into computers discover them at a young age, and learn on their own without anyone pushing them to learn. just look at any notable programmer above 30 these days and you'll see that they learned on some old terminal when they were 10.

pushing kids to learn programming when they have no occupational or personal reason to do it is just wasting time and money. you would be better off just setting up a national apprenticeship program where all sorts of industries take in young children and teach them the ropes, so a kid who is into ships can have hands on time on an actual cargo vessel, a kid who is into planes can work on them and fly them early, etc.

>Classical Logic should be taught in Kindergarten
Wew lad

I think it would pay more to just have teachers who can actually reason well. I swear the average teacher is sub-100iq

>people who really get into computers discover them at a young age, and learn on their own without anyone pushing them to learn. just look at any notable programmer above 30 these days and you'll see that they learned on some old terminal when they were 10.
Wow it's almost like starting programming at a young age makes you really good at it, and it's not too hard to learn for them. Really makes me think.

I mean all your arguments could just as well be applied to fucking algreba. What business does a 10yo have doing algebra, all the people who get really good at math do it themselves without being pushed to, etc. etc.

Kids should know things like how to use a word processor and how to use the internet safely. However coding is a specific skill set and most kids don't need to know coding skills. Coding at earliest should be high school for university bound kids. You are just wasting the time of any other kid. Schools should wait until the kids need a particular skill to progress. The thing is literacy and math skills will still be usable knowledge 10, 20 years from now. Tech skills have a good chance of obsoleting within 10 years. Even some of the basic computer architect might obsolete with the new types of computers being built, such as quantum computers.

>Sup Forums confirmed for high test

An iphone is a computer dipshit.

computer fluency maybe because that's something that can be taught since it's designed for the lowest common denominator so everyone can use it

programming no because 50% of them will utterly fail at it no matter how hard you teach them. it's better you don't even attempt to teach them so they don't ever get under the impression that they can learn it so someone else doesn't ever get the mistaken idea that they can hire them to do it

>Wow it's almost like starting programming at a young age makes you really good at it, and it's not too hard to learn for them.
no, kids who are deeply into programming and computers in general on a deep level generally find their passion early on and learn it on their own. any idiot can learn how to code with a year of time and a bunch of books, it takes a special type of person to really get into it.

if someone wants to just get a decent job at a software company that gives them a good amount of money, they can go to university and learn that. if someone really is into computing, they will come out of high school with a self taught university level education.

>I mean all your arguments could just as well be applied to fucking algreba.
no, algebra is very useful, even if you don't use it every day. the ability to manipulate things with the tools algebra gives you is very valuable. programming is not something a child needs to come out of high school with.

B8

>Why the fuck should computer programming be taught?
Your stupid.

no, plz stay

if your typical /polcuck learned some programming/ general science while growing up, they wouldnt have turned out so uptight as they are right now. They never developed critical thinking.
>black man did bad thing. ALL BLACK BAD

Im sorry your so stupid but thats no reason to bring everyone else down to your level

Separate coding and basic computer literacy skills. The fact is most operating systems have nice interfaces so that ordinary people using the system don't have to learn to code. Knowing how to use Windows is an entirely different skill than knowing HTML. Most kids need computer literacy. Only a few kids will need programming skills.

>your
>country: US
learn the 3rd grade basics of the language of your country of residence before calling others stupid

I was talking about other people, not me. most people can't program even when taught. that's a fact

this is why they shill so hard for women in computer science
they want it to be the new secretary role

this. another thing to keep in mind is that having some programming knowledge can actually be more dangerous than having none. if i'm a sysadmin with 20 different certificates at a large company, i don't want all of the people i'm supposed to protect having enough knowledge to bypass the firewalls i have put in place, fuck with the IDS to play minecraft, and somehow manage to pipe a tor connection through the email server. it's hard enough to keep things working when 60% of people don't even know what a DVI cable is.

The first time someone creates a programable computer language in fusion with Virtual Reality.. ala programming stuff via a visual manner like mine craft.. gg game over

I don't think so, Programming computers need some brain power and the vast majority of the human population decide everything around how they feel.

You propose something that could work in a world where logic is used by the majority. Good idea but not applicable.

>language
This does not apply to Americans though, because they already speak the most useful language. Learning a second language would be less beneficial to them than learning programming, and they could learn programming in the time it takes to learn a second language.
I guess most people don't need to program, but it would give them skills that make them more computer literate in general, and it is definitely more useful than learning shit like MS office.

now your just being pedant

Visual programming already is a thing and it's a meme because it's insane and basically useless level of abstraction and imprecision compared to written code.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language

yes it should
because other alternative is self learning machines and seriously you don't want to go into that timeline

>t software engineer

>visual programmin
Like Blender or the Android Development Studio... i cant stand it for the most part.

Only, as user mentioned, this style of programming is shit. its already been done, and its not 'game over' as you so eloquently put it. You literally suggested the equivalent of "removing all words from books and making reading stories picture only. game over".. sure you can turn a book into a movie, but you always loose a certain measure of precision and detail when translating a written work to a film.

Programming in this style will always have the drawback of imprecision. how can you program something like a virtual template function using visual programming? you cant. it must be done textually

Need to learn a new skill, good luck without reading skills. Also most jobs require you know how to read and write on at least a basic level. Need a drivers license or to file taxes? Enjoy doing that when you can't read. Whereas only a few people, most of them programmers, ever need to know how to code. Also you need to know how to read to program.

if every person knows how to code and program then what maeks it valuable?

dont know who are worse

t_d or programming niggers

>have CS degree
>teacher assistant in college
>assistant instructor for 1 year
>now I'm jobless NEET
Yeah sure lets increase the job market for me.

>If every person knows how to add and subtract then what makes it valuable?
Its cpmplex. anyone can do the simple work (if theyre taught) but someone who is actually good at is demands a premium in the job market

like 20% of my comp sci major dropped out within 6 months because they couldnt even understand basic C variables

then another 20% dropped out at pointers


and these are people who thought they were """good""" at computers. sorry user not everyone can get it. we dont need arrogant kids who think they are the shit because they can do some dumb shit lowest common denominator ""programming""

also this, had to end up doing a business second major and 8 business electives to cover my defiency in this area

no.

I dont even have my CS degree yet (although I have several professional certificaitons) and im a cyber security consultant for two businesses and I also administer a few websites.

Maybe your not that good at it.

''Your''

It's okay user, just leave the thread, you don't need to embarrass yourself any further.

>Computer literacy
I think there should be a "just fucking Google it, you retard" class. Instead of learning some bullshit about how to use software X that they will forget in two weeks, kids would have to solve problems using a search engine. 99% of the people who are seen as tech literate did nothing, but fixed issue after issue with the help of the internet when they encountered them.

this is the stupidest post I've ever seen on Sup Forums

t. pedant

Most IT workers don't need programming. They need to know how to check if the power cord is plugged in or how to install antivirus programs. Also we don't need code monkeys we need good highly skilled programmers. Also teaching why teach a kid a skill that will be obsolete by the time they hit the workforce? At least in high school, the kid will have a small window of opportunity before their skills become worthless.

dude weed

We can't even teach people English grammar when English is their native language. Also there's evidence that some people are basically incapable of learning to program, see "The Camel has Two Humps."

nikka please... basic bitch

On that note however there should be more opportunity to learn it early. As of now most schools only have any sort of computer science classes at a Junior High level.

>hundreds of thousands of FORTRAN programmers because the head of the department of education used to work at general atomics in the 70s

>Should programming or computer literacy be taught universally from a young age a la verbal literacy?

YES,
BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE:
1-It MUST be a language that is usually interpreted
1.1-They must teach them in the interpreted way
EXPLANATION: programming language generate a source code, you can them translate this source code to machine code to be used by windows at x64 or x86 architecture (what most people use), you can also translate this source code to another OS/Architecture mix by compiling to this mix OS/Architecture.
Stuff need to be at machine code because thats is what pc understand, normal programming languages make just easier to us to code.
An alternative is interpreted language, instead of converting the source code to executable/machine code, you convert it to a middle term thing. Then a program called interpreter will run this middle term, someone write a interpertrer for a os/architecture mix and it will run this middle term code you created. So, you wont need to create a program specifically to every OS/Architecture mix out there.

2-Programming language must be a normal class, not something that wont be considered important by the school and so childrens wont need to care about it, like sports, arts....

3-They will learn it as early as it would be ok to children's learn it.

Holy shit this. Like a modern survival class.

you have the fucking internet nigger
i learnt c++ at 13
had embedded lua, directx. xaudio2, encryption, networking, resource management, state machines, my own tools, map builder, custom formats, archive formats, xinput, going by 14

It was a reference to an earlier point about how the economy changed during industrialization and how reading/writing were useless for the majority of people before then, and now the ubiquity of computers possibly presents a similar situation but with the ability to use computers properly.
Most of the people who will know will only know basic or rudimentary, maybe scripting-tier stuff. Things like writing good compilers, spam filters, AI and ML Algorithms, etc. will still be done by the best of the elite who will be valuable.

No, make the new generations full of sjw's jobless cucks like their parents want them to be. Have to keep the job market small once automation takes on full force. Those with computer related skills will rule thus securing the financial future of most people on Sup Forums

>unironically using operator overloading
cancer

Yes. The state I'm from has required basic computer literacy for all high school graduates since the 80s. This might seem ridiculous but what it means is this:

> be oldfag in undergrad, early 90s
> art skool
> fags from the most educated, SJW, feel good state in the country (Massholechusetts)
> stick floppy discs in sideways
> panic attack at the word "program"
> can't find power button
> no idea about mouse
> random backwoods trash from my home state can field-strip a PC and have it POSTing again in a half hour.

>HTML
>coding

nice bait, mate

Numbers of job applications I've sent: 0.
I'm fine living off NEET bux and programming useless scripts to advance my shitposting. Thank you wagie tax for my lifestyle. BRB my new SSD and grafix cards just came in along with a new monitor.

>t. jelly
how am I a wagie?
I charge people for my services, I am not employed by anyone. I employ myself.

As long as you're trolling to defend the white race, you're honestly doing more good than most minimum-wage plebs.

Computers tend to be more precise than humans and can work in conditions humans find difficult. It is only a matter of time before a welding robot comes along to replace humans. In 20 - 40 years, it is very likely robots will have replaced most tradesmen.

>tfw to intelligent to understand memes

Teach what your kid wants to learn.
The only thing really foundational to future learning is basic literacy.

if I know how to use C++, Python and Matlab should I even bother with other languages?

I'm in engineering btw