Taxes

What gives the government the authority to force me to pay taxes? If taxation is compulsory, it's theft, regardless of the purpose.

we need taxes for firemen and schools and space exploration and landfills

Why not complain about interest? Fkn kike
This

This didn't answer the question. What makes it not theft?

What if I don't want schools, firemen, space exploration and landfills? Can I not pay tax?

(Note that all these services would likely be better performed by the private initiative)

Are you forced to engage in deals that have interest involved?

You must live in the favela.

If your government didn't take it, the cartels would.

It must really suck not having pavements, plumbing and street lamps.

And how ironic, that the captcha is street signs...

Do you know what a street sign is?

Do you know what a street is?

I like to think of it as a necessary evil. I'm uncomfortable with taxes but I realise that they're integral to the cohesion of society. As long as I'm not being taxed excessively and the government uses my money somewhat effectively I can live with it.

lifehack:
you don't have to pay tax if you killyourself

I live in Florianopolis, pic related.

As I said before, it doesn't matter the purpose of tax. If it is compulsory, it is no different from theft. If a group of thieves stole your money, then bought nice things for you, would you still say it is not theft?

Fair enough if you admit that it is theft. However, what makes you think it is integral for the cohesion of society? Consider this: A group of bureaucrats that never worked a day in their lives takes your money, keeps part of it for themselves, then buy you stuff and give it back to you. And you go all happy because you think you are getting free stuff, but no, you paid for everything and lost some money in the process.

Private business would be able to offer all these services much more effectively.

There is a bunch of shit that people feel are human rights so they all voted and said the government isnt protecting its citizens rights unless it does certain things so that someone won't half ass the job

So instead of a private company picking up your trash or keeping you safe a government owned organization does it because if every poor person had to pay firemen out of pocket the firemen would let the house burn. This has happened. They would show up and demand payment to go inside your house and do a job while the house was burning.

With taxes everyones house is covered and the firemen are volunteers who get paid to put out any fire because at least they know they are going to get paid to save you from your idiot neighbors grease fire

the fact that bolivia can't invade your city and rape your mother makes up for it

Why am I forced to pay firemen service for the poor? What if I don't want to help the poor? Firemens are not a human right, they're a fucking service, no one should be forced to work for free and no one should be enslaved to pay for the services of another person

PS: No, the houses of the poor would not be burned down if we had no State, private charity would handle that

In other words, my government protects me from being invaded by another government!

Thanks for justifying the existence of the government!

Their guns allow you to live without being enslaved by other guns.

So the State enslaves me to keep me from being enslaved by other States? WTF I love the State now! Pic related.

You don't need a State to protect you from being enslaved by another State, all you need is guns, big guns, and private business can take care of that.

I'm very anti trade union and pro-privatisation but there are some crucial services that cannot be outsourced to the private sector. If the healthcare system was entirely privatised the poorest and most vulnerable members of society would be left to die. I think the vast majority of taxpayers have no qualms about facilitating vulnerable people. It's when my tax money goes to funding feminist libraries in Djibouti or some unemployed lout's Sky Sports subscription that I get pissed. Thankfully Ireland is ranked no.6 in the world or something for economic freedom so it's not that concerning to me.

You are poor idiot.

You are from brazil you think you have the funds or personal insurance to cover a fire?

There is no such thing as charity. Its poor incompetent people stealing from rich and successful people. Rich people care about whats economically successful. They don't give a fuck about you or your family. Because you are poor.

It doesn't matter if you think it's dumb. In every ancap simulator game out there, the pacifists end up hiring guards. Governments will always exist in some form and you can either create one and fight the others or submit.
What will you do when a thug threatens to shoot, whine about the unfairness of the situation?

You can always go off the grid. That way you are totally free of the man.

True. The thing is, government is just a very big security business that obeys many interests. You don't need to obey, but if you don't, you get conquered. Simple.

Brazil has a 100% public healthcare system that Canada should copy in a few years and it's awful, every year thousands of people die in the corridor of the hospitals. Do NOT trust the government essential services, the government is incompetent and WILL leave you hanging. The best healthcare you can find in Brazil is from the private sector. This applies to most countries too. Many people from around the world come get medical treatment in Brazil's private hospitals since they are top tier, while the public hospitals are absolute shit.

The destination of what is stolen from you doesn't make it not theft.

>There is no such thing as charity.
Yes it is. When the industrial revolution took place in the UK and everything went to shit the State did nothing, it didn't even have the power to do anything. What saved the poor Englishmen from starving to death were private charities, some which are still alive to this very day to refute your ignorant ass. It is also a fact that charities tend to flourish where there are less laws and regulations. Go read Roger Scruton or something.

>if you don't like being enslaved you can just leave and pray they won't find you man why are you complaining
Thanks

It is theft, but there is nothing you can do about it. If you don't give them what they want, they will fuck up your life, and kill you if they feel like it.

What is the problem with hiring guards? If a thug threatens to shoot me I will shoot his ass or hire someone to do it since threats are an aggression and therefore a crime. And at least the guards I hire will not be enslaving me.

Libertarianism is the final redpill, Sup Forums.

But it's a huge redpill, you can't swallow it all at once. Try reading Rothbard, more specifically the Libertarian Manifesto. Once you read it, these ideas will stay in your head. You will remember them every time the State oppresses you, every time it fucks up.

Our healthcare system is semi private so we can have good private treatment whilst the poor aren't left dying in the street.

In your ideal scenario thousands of people would die from health conditions that they couldn't afford to treat. Social Darwinism is outdated. Every individual owes a small sense of responsibility for his community

In my ideal scenario there will be people willing to voluntarily aid those who can't afford healthcare. Millions of people already do that (private charity to fund healthcare for the poor) in a society that theoretically doesn't need this since the State is supposed to guarantee healthcare for everyone, just imagine how much charity would increase if there was no State stealing from you.

>Muh roads n sheeeit
I wouldn't mind paying for roads and smillar things but most of our tax goes to welfare programs, I don't want to subsidize bad genes and my own fucking replacement, fuck off.

>taxation is theft
I don't agree with the framing.
If you want to be the beneficiary of a government, namely have your rights upheld and have access to social programs, you pay into it. If you don't, then you go off grid and be self sufficient.

How many wealthy British industrialists helped the millions of poor dying from tuberculosis in the London tenement slums?

Charity cannot be enforced and humans are naturally greedy.

>majority of people are 'poor' or middle class, ie not able to fork out several thousands for medical expenses
>basically a huge market
>yet somehow, without the government forcing them, neither the people nor the insurance companies would be able to figure out a mutually beneficial deal
>insurance companies would literally let a huge part of their market die for some reason

Do you statist fucks not even think your shit through for one second?

I'v heard that in America you actually don't need to pay tax returns.

We need taxes to help all the black kids who dont have dads. Necause they are disadvantaged because of socioeconomic factors and systemic racism.

>muh sheeeit argument
Private business would provide these services better and/or for less because they will have competition and can't just force you to pay with a gun to your head.

>What gives the government the authority to force me to pay taxes?
The law and the police i guess.

>What gives the government the authority to force me to pay taxes?
They have more guns and manpower because this world is infested with bootlicking beta faggots who are too afraid of the responsibility that comes with freedom

>go off grid and be self sufficient
Illegal in most places.

Nobody minds paying for services voluntarily. It's the compulsory part that is the issue. It is immoral and removes any accountability of the 'service provider'

Property is theft!

You're basically paying the government to protect you from whatever nigger wants to kill you.

But you're Brazilian so you're naturally a nigger.

How many governments helped the millions of people dying from the plague in the middle ages?
How many rich industrialists genocided millions of people in the 20th century?

>You're basically paying the government to protect you from whatever nigger wants to kill you.
And paying to subsidize keeping Tyrone alive, but I bet you like that, don't you?
Also
>implying that the free market couldn't provide personal defense better than the government

Hiring guards is the first step towards a government dipshit.

History has shown that people tend towards centralised system with rules. Give a free market a decade and new governments will arise, in the form of corporations with guns.

You obviously have no idea that the usual laws of supply and demand and muh free market work a little bit differently when it come to health.
For example new drugs enter the market at higher prices not lower ones due to increased competition. The proliferation and sheer amount of insurance companies in the U.S means that non of them are big enough to cut healthcare costs the way Medicare can.

Its a protection racket essentially. Government stems from the concentration of force, and you will always have force concentrated somewhere. So basically you deal with this shit and try and make it as nonintrusive as possible because it will always exist in some form.

>Illegal in most places.
Source.

> It's the compulsory part that is the issue.
It's compulsory because there's literally no other efficient way to collect taxes. It'd be nice if we could "pay as you go" for the social services and protections that we use, and only pay back for what you take, tut that's a logistic impossibility. And relying on the honor system of people voluntarily paying will only be met with people neglecting to pay their taxes; either because people don't see the immediate benefit to do so, or through ignorance. Similar to healthcare, the more people pay in, the cheaper it gets, and the more robust a service that can be provided. This is because of "economy of scale", I suggest looking it up, as it also applies to government programs.

Explain.

None of that made any sense or was even an explanation.
Why would competition raise costs? Why would the universal principles of supply and demand work different?

What the fuck has that got to do with anything you dumb Kraut. My point is that no society has ever existed whereby all the poorest people in that society have their healthcare costs paid for by the random acts of kindness by strangers. Conversely millions of people in Europe have access to affordable healthcare and are living longer because of it. Your fucking illusion that somehow charity will fix anything is pathetic and delusional

You're free to not pay taxes though. As long as you also stop using any public services and roads, obviously.

I'd stop paying taxes and stop using public services on a whim if it was simple like that. You can't have a property without government documents and you can't get or keep said documents without paid taxes. In other words, living without paying taxes means living without being able to uphold any property, which is impossible.

Now tell me why I should be forced to fund poor people's healthcare? Even if you were right about how charity can't get people free healthcare, you'd still be wrong since that's irrelevant.

>I hire guards
>I need to pay guards
>hello good goyim would you like some protection from other people with "guards"? All you need is to pay me a small "fee"
>Oh you don't want to pay? I guess you don't want to live around here anymore right? It would be a shame if one of the guns accidentally fired off right?

The very first form of taxation is coercion by those with force. It's a shitty system, but it's the only system humans have ever known.

What you just described is a Mafia, not a government, although both are almost the same thing, the government is simply a wildly successful and gigantic Mafia group.

Because unlike you I am actually patriotic and care about the welfare of my community. It doesn't reflect well on my country if there are people dying in the street. I suppose as a Brazilian you are used to that

>Private business would provide these services better and/or for less because they will have competition and can't just force you to pay with a gun to your head.

Private business is never going to take care of sewage as that kind of infrastructure is unable to pay for itself in literally any country. People would just go back to shitting in the streets as they do in my country, India and any other place where the State doesn't take care of it.

So you do admit that you are forcing me to pay for the healthcare of the poor, and that you are using violence to do that. That's all I wanted to hear.

>Now tell me why I should be forced to fund poor people's healthcare?
Because of your elected representative. If you don't like it, vote for someone else. Welcome to the real world, kiddo, you don't get to have everything your way.

>democracy
What gives democracy any legitimacy?

If a group of 10 thieves decide that they will steal from 3 men, you'd say they are criminals.

If a group of 1000 natives decide they will steal and sacrifice 3 men, you'd say they are "poor natives with a different culture, cut them some slack, let's solve this in a civil manner"

If a group of 1.000.000 people decide they will steal from 3 men, you'd say it is "democratic, a decision for the common good"

In other words, any crime is legitimate for you as long as there is a large amount of people supporting it. Even mass murder (war).

Sucks to live with such fragile ideals.

The underlying idea behind both are identical, it's simply a matter of scale. They both act as a governing body to push for their agenda because they have more guns then you do.

This is also why a completely free market never really works, because eventually people with guns gets together and a system of control is established.

Not if the people stop allowing themselves to be enslaved and decide to react to authoritarian shitheads.

Libertarians are pretty much like that child from the story who insists that the Emperor is wearing no clothes. We want you all to wake up and realize that you don't need to let anyone enslave you.

Yeah but like I said before it's a necessary evil. Conforming to rigid ideology achieves nothing. Pragmatism is what drives humanity forward

>Source
In germany you get a tax number when born and are required by law to always register your place of residence and you must always be able to ID yourself to the police.

Anyway, there are lots of ways government, if we absolutely need one, could be funded that don't involve taxation. For example, government could be funded through a lottery. Why don't you look up what's been written about it?
If government wasn't funded through violence, you're right in that it would likely have a lot less money, which is kind of the point, because it should be as slim as possible as there is no service that could not be better provided by private enterprise. If gov had less money, it would have to allocate it more carefully and not waste it on retarded shit like welfare or perpetual war.

You are very arrogant as well to speak of logistical impossibility. Just because you can not conceive it in the frame of a discussion on a peruvian guinea pig farming board does not make it an impossible or even difficult.
This is exactly the problem with government, the central planning problem - look it up. You can't possibly know what is the best solution because such a solution can only arise from free competition, which is indeed impossible when you have a government messing with almost every market there is.

And all of that still doesn't change the fact that taxation is theft. Even if it's the only method of funding governments it is still theft. In fact, if it is indeed the only method of funding, then that speaks volumes about the nature of government.

Imagine this
>a group of people get together
>They have more guns then you
>They start forcing people to pay taxes to get more guns, shooting/jailing anyone who doesn't
>They come for you; what do?

feel free to offer your argument, but from what I see you either get shot/jailed or you pay up.

>If the healthcare system was entirely privatised the poorest and most vulnerable members of society would be left to die.
What do you think happened to people that needed healthcare before it was the "government's job?"

The price of basic healthcare keeps going up, even in countries where the government pays for it all. This is the exact opposite how it's supposed to be. Socialized healthcare is great for politicians who wants votes from the plebs. In fact, it's one of Bismark's plans to make the German people sub-servant to the state. Same for the "free" education.

People like authoritarian figures you shithead, that's why Trump is so popular.

Here is an idea my fellow potato lover:
Let poor people pay for their own healthcare. Free market means greater social mobility and more flexible insurance options. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

Your parents didn't ask the government to have you either

You're no different from a regular thief you find on the streets. Well, you are a little worse. A thief that knocks my head with a stone, empties my pockets and runs away. It doesn't try to justify the theft. The thief doesn't say "I have the right to keep your money". You do.

>What gives democracy any legitimacy?
Go look up Social Contract Theory.

>If a group of 1000 natives decide they will steal and sacrifice 3 men
No, they're disgusting savages.

>If a group of 1.000.000 people decide they will steal from 3 men, you'd say it is "democratic"
The difference with this example is that the "stolen" money in this case goes to defending the 3 men from the prior two examples. Actually, that protection gets extended to all 1.000.003 of them. So what does anarchism get you? It gets guarantees all the three examples, while a governing power guarantees the third.

Get more guns than them and annihilate them. Then resume life in a free society where every man is free to fight his own battles.

If you care about the people in need of healthcare then you should pay for it yourself, not demand that others pay for them.

>Go look up Social Contract Theory
I'm a law student, I read Rousseau's book on that and I also read Kant, Locke and Hobbes. The fact people still use the social contract baffles me to this very day.

You can easily refute it with a simple question: When did I sign this contract?

>when you were born
Infants can't partake contracts

>your parents signed it for you
No such thing

>when you got an ID
This is becoming embarrassing.

>You didn't recognize the problem early/problem existed before you were born
>Suddenly you have more guns than the entrenched and established system and easily overthrow it
>Somehow you don't just becomes the same system you overthrew
If you aren't willing to become that system someone else in the group you organized to overthrow the previous one is more than willing to kill you and make it happen.

...

>Just get more guns you know?
Harder then considering you're at a disadvantage (taxation=more money= more guns)

>where every man is free to fight his own battles

But human nature dictates that they will conform into tribes (as they did thousands of years ago), which given enough time will once again develop into governing bodies with taxation.

This comes from the principle that every man is corrupt and wants to enslave other men. Which is not true. The only people willing to enslave others are already working for the State. Furthermore, only evil people try to convince themselves that everyone else is evil, it's a poor excuse.

I mean fuck, you are American, you should know better than anyone else that having a gun doesn't make you an authoritarian shithead.

If you ask why you have to pay taxes, you probably live in Bra--

Oh wait. Kill yourself kike, slide thread asked from street orphan. Saged.

My Captcha was Roads, and brazil only has dirt roads carved from cartel victims

>The only people willing to enslave others are already working for the State

I don't work for the State and I own a sweatshop where I enslave impoverished bolivians. Boy you sure are naive.

If you let everyone fend for their own, you might as well just go to Africa.

That's not an argument.

You're basically saying it's okay if your house is on fire and there is no reason to put it out because it will probably catch fire again in a long enough period of time.

What's the purpose of peace if we will end up in a war again?
Why live if we're going to die anyway?

Humans will associate with each other, yes, such is human nature, and such is the basis of free market, this does not mean humans will enslave each other.

>harder considering you are at a disadvantage
Not at all since the free market allows me to get better guns at a cheaper price

You are not enslaving anyone if they agreed to work at such poor conditions, idiot. Everyone is free to submit themselves to awful work conditions if that is needed to survive.

>leftists that think freedom means having expensive stuff

>I mean fuck, you are American, you should know better than anyone else that having a gun doesn't make you an authoritarian shithead.
This is exactly the point of the second amendment. Its why we have a government AND all the citizens are expected to destroy that government should it be a piece of shit.

I am explaining to you the natural state of things as evidence by basically all of human history. After repeating the cycle me and the other guy just described for thousands of years just once a group of people tried putting in place a system that will sidestep it while acknowledging it. You have a government because you will always have a government, but you instill in the citizens the right to destroy that government when it is no longer charitable and replace it with a better one. This system is not the natural way of things, and it could easily destroy itself and be lost forever, which is why those that understand what it means and how truly rare it is are willing to fight to keep it that way.

>When did I sign this contract?
All the time. It's not a literal material contract, you turbo nerd. "Contract" is simply a metaphor to help understand the concept of daily, immaterial agreements and exchanges of social favor. You sign it when you use a public road, call the police, or even make a promise to a friend that you'll give them a ride to work/school. The theory of Social Contract is embedded in personal and public matters alike.

>I'm a law student
You're a shitty one, study harder, faggot.

The classic argument is that the "Gubment" did so much for you before you were born that you owe them still for your very life. It's why you used to be able to inherit the debts (and wealth) of your father (which still can happen).

It's also why the issue is not "can they tax me" the question is "why". Which is why representation in government is such a big deal.

Yeah something tells me you neither didn't read Hobbes or you were a shit student and didn't pay attention

>Everyone is free to submit themselves to awful work conditions if that is needed to survive.

No, they didn't agree. I literally lock the doors and don't let them out. Seriously didn't you read in the news?

Taxation is integral to cohesion in failed societies.

In productive societies, the proper thing to do is have the government make profitable investments. For example, the Panama Canal cost about $7B in today's dollars but generates about $1B in direct profits each year to this day.

The canal of course is "worth" far more than ~$1B per year, as people only pay to pass through it if the cost is lower than the alternative.

No private industry generates this kind of ROI. Government has, by far, the highest return on capital when it invests soundly. The only real problem we have is that the government spending today (and for a long time leading up) is on unproductive assets (war) and gibs.

It would be easy to spend a few trillion on something like NAWAPA. You can end unemployment insurance because an excess of jobs would be available. Need a job? Go work on NAWAPA project. But even without these knock on effects, NAWAPA has a higher ROI than anything normal industry has going anyway. Use the profits from the investment to lower tax burden.

>hurr you signed the contract that allows me and my bureaucrat friends to enslave you without noticing, gahaha!
Fuck off

>this does not mean humans will enslave each other.
Up until the last century every human group that has ever lived has enslaved others. Period. Every culture has had slaves. And they only reason they stopped was because a culture that had advanced beyond the point of needing slaves steam rolled the earth and made them stop. And even then slaves still exist in various places and also in the shadows of places that are 'against' slavery. This is not a matter of 'humans are evil bluh bluh' this is a matter of 'power will do what it will, because that is the meaning of power'

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily against creating a freer market;. However don't be deluded into thinking it's some kind of utopia where everyone is free to their own cause, because it will eventually consolidate back into our current system.

>what are greed, self-interest, desperation, ignorance etc. etc.

If someone tries to enslave you, react. It'd only take a short time to create a culture of truly free people.

>As long as I'm not being taxed excessively and the government uses my money somewhat effectively I can live with it.

Do you know what country you live in?
The tax system here is a joke. High taxes and add-on fees like the TV licence so the TDs can get nice pay rises.
Our Health Services are practically third world tier and the Gaurds are the most useless police force in Western Europe.

>enslave
Edgy.

I'm not sure if you're too autistic too feel compassion for the poor and disabled or whether you just come from countries where patriotism and a sense of community has been whittled away. Maybe it's both. If you're comfortable with seeing your own compatriots die in the streets from easily treatable conditions as long as you get to keep a few extra shekels, then good luck to you.

I'm Christian. I help the poor and I will keep helping voluntarily regardless of the State.

The difference is that I help the poor with my own money, out of my own will. You prefer to help the poor with the money of other people.

Didn't work for all the people that have been enslaved throughout history. You might personally be willing to die to be free, and kudos to you, but once I gut you, rape your family public, maybe kill some of them too and hang your corpse out where everyone can see it I'll have plenty of slaves that aren't willing to resist.

Maybe once every few hundred years you'll get a slave revolt that makes any gains whatsoever. Smaller revolts might kill me personally, but the system remains and more people like me profit more than my individual death causes losses.

I don't agree with your assumption.

If we were living 1000 years ago and having this discussion, would you have claimed that we would fall back into feudalism eventually?
With advancements in science and philosophy, we became more civilised and our form of government improved.
Why can it not improve further?

Also, I don't want to create some sort of utopia. I just don't want to be extorted.

It's both. Patriotism for brazilians is just a vacuous abstract concept that translates into wearing Football jerseys at stupid protests against "corruption".