How is Tesla supposed to compete with cars like this?

Seriously, all premium car companies worldwide will launch their e-cars in 2018 and 2019 given the price point drop of batteries by then and the charging stations built up supported by European and Asian governments (America is already falling behind in infrastructure as Americans hate the government).

What has Tesla got that would make e.g. a European or an Asian (together making up 75% of worldwide vehicle demand in the premium sector) buy a Tesla? Tesla has no network of repair shops, has a shitty design and is more expensive than an Audi, Porsche, Jaguar etc. in the premium segment... not to mention that Tesla is trying to lose its premium brand by going into budget car models, thus diluting its image.

Audi A9 specs:
95 kwh battery yielding 500 km (311 miles) NEDC-rated of range
An 11 kw inductive charging plate option that will be offered
Mostly aluminum structure
All-wheel drive. 3 electric motors (one up front, two in rear) for a total of 429 bhp, and a sport mode to boost it to 496 bhp and 590 lb ft torque temporarily
0-100 khm (0-62 mph) in 4.6 seconds and a top speed of 211 kmh (131 mph)
Level-4 autonomous driving technology

electrek.co/2016/12/26/10-electric-cars/

Other urls found in this thread:

tesla.com/blog/panasonic-and-tesla-sign-agreement-gigafactory
hybridcars.com/supercapacitor-breakthrough-allows-electric-vehicle-charging-in-seconds/
topspeed.com/cars/audi/2020-audi-a9-e-tron-ar175132.html
youtube.com/watch?v=vKnI1ujMfCA
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Electric cars are a meme. Lithium is very limited.

Because Tesla branding and their hero, Elon Musk's innovation persona.

>>/o/

>Electric cars are a meme.
No, they are the future.

>Lithium is very limited.
There are battery alternatives to lithium-ion including capacitors and solid state batteries and lithium-air batteries that need 1/10th the lithium for the same charge.

>Because Tesla branding and their hero, Elon Musk's innovation persona.
But how?

This is a highly political topic as automotive is part of the continued trade war between Germany, China, Japan and the US.

g*rman cars are a meme, and some adults can see through it.

because the wave of the future is hybrids with the electric motor as an adjunct assist to the gasoline engine. Pure electric cars will never be a thing in your lifetime.

who do you think is building the batteries, it's tesla in that fuckhuge factory out in the desert

Tesla's sky-high market value is a bubble, and it's going to burst.

>There are battery alternatives to lithium-ion including capacitors and solid state batteries and lithium-air batteries that need 1/10th the lithium for the same charge.
Gasoline is 13,000 times more energy dense than the best batteries. If you think we can ever make up a 13,000 fold difference, you're fucking stupid.

Elon Musk is a con artist, you shill.

They're a deathtrap, enjoy being cooked to a crisp after a small collision.

Also, 500KM is only a few hours of driving, the range on these things is limited as shit, it's unacceptable, they shouldn't even put that shit into production unless they can get twice that autonomy

That's Panasonic, actually.

Possibly not, Samsung and LG also make a shit load of LiOn batteries

Back again? In less than 12 hours? Who's paying for this?


PS Tesla for perfect victory

Tell me Euro peon, what are you going to do when 500 million shitskins move to Europe within the next 20 years because they have no water in their countries due to drought and population explosion?

Serious question, have you even taken this into consideration?

They won't. Tesla will be out business

Nobody will compete with anybody because once China's real estate market explodes, then everybody is doomed

Also can we talk about how there is no way in fucking hell they're going to make an all-electric semi-truck unless the trailer it hauls is the battery?

Moving 80,000 lbs across the country takes a fucking lot of energy.

When these autonomous cars get possesed/hacked enmass will they all Spotify the Beach Boys as they slaughter everyone?

What is Panasonic?

You're the same guy who made the porsche thread, and ima keep telling you, tesla won't compete, their build quality has been shotty, so far as to get them knocked down real low, no amount of pre orders is gonna change how awful they have been with their PR and quality control.

They wont. Thats why tesla is the apple of e cars. Other brands will out do them now that they kmow the platfprm sells.

>Gasoline is 13,000 times more energy dense than the best batteries.
What the fuck are you talking about? Current range for an ICE is around 600-700km. Range for e-cars coming out 2018 and 2019 is 500-600km. The weight of the drivetrains is comparable.

>500 million shitskins move to Europe within the next 20 years
Just stop, idiot. We have reduced illegal immigration by 80% in 2016 over 2015. Yes, Europe as a whole still got 350k illegals in 2016, but that is getting cut down to 250k in 2017.

How many illegals you got, 15 million, 20 million?

>what are graphene batteries.

but anyways electric cars currently are a meme.
>implying mining the lithium,and refining it ,and then making it into a battery is super clean

Autonomous cars already exist and will be used conventionally in the next decade, with the rate that technology is expanding pure electric cars could definitely be a thing in the next 30 years

Tesla branded itself as THE electric car company. Elon Musk is an innovator and did a lot of weird successful shit. He's a figure head that has a lot of love in the crowds of people who would be in the market for electric cars (lefty in particular.) You can't point to a figurehead/leader for other brands that sell electric cars. Also, with Elon's involvement in "advance/future" technology, you assume his cars will also be innovative and futuristic as well—perhaps subtler compared to my previous statements.

>What is Panasonic?
It's a joint effort.

According to the agreement, Tesla will prepare, provide and manage the land, buildings and utilities. Panasonic will manufacture and supply cylindrical lithium-ion cells and invest in the associated equipment, machinery, and other manufacturing tools based on their mutual approval.
tesla.com/blog/panasonic-and-tesla-sign-agreement-gigafactory

I don't really want an apartment in Xiangchung, do you?

>>implying mining the lithium,and refining it ,and then making it into a battery is super clean
No, it is fucking dirty. But who cares about some dirt blown around in China?

>You can't point to a figurehead/leader for other brands that sell electric cars.

Once the product does not measure up to other products, Tesla has problems. It has always been like this. Apple had big problems when its products did not measure up despite Steve Jobs. That was in the early 2000s.

>Also, with Elon's involvement in "advance/future" technology, you assume his cars will also be innovative and futuristic as well
But there is no evidence that Tesla's are top tech now, they are actually worse in technology (apart from the current e-drivetrain) than other premium cars.

better look for shares in Lithium mining companies.

The point was that Panasonic cells its battery cells to other car companies as well, which then build their own battery packs. This is no problem really.

they won't be competing with your nazi cars, they want to sell more than that.

There are alternatives to lithium ion batteries.
hybridcars.com/supercapacitor-breakthrough-allows-electric-vehicle-charging-in-seconds/

This is just one example. Nature allows us to store electricity in many fucking ways.

thank for proving they are a meme

>they are not green
>they have limited range

Economies of scale are still needed to reduce the price of the batteries, which the gigafactory provides.

I doubt panasonic would sell batteries made from the gigafactory to tesla's competitors.

Passing out visas and welfare like your women pass out in mosque barracks doesn't mean you've solved your immigration problem.

>tesla is more than twice as fast
get fucked euro cuck

>they won't be competing with your nazi cars, they want to sell more than that.

Well, let us see. The problem Tesla has is that while they get billions and billions of US taxpayer subsidies, they are still making big losses... and the US is already falling behind the charging infrastructure that countries such as Japan, Korea, Western Europe and China are building up. America traditionally hates infrastructure and this is not going to change. Lack of infrastructure will mean e-cars will not be adopted in America as fast as in Asia and Europe. It is quite similar as the Diesel story.

A gallon of gasoline weighs 6 pounds, occupies a mere 230 cubic inches and contains the equivalent of 36 kWhs of electrical energy.

Most current EVs use lithium-ion batteries that store no more than the equivalent of 16-24 kWh of energy in a single charge. The Tesla, currently among the most powerful PEVs on the market, can store the equivalent of 53 kWh when fully charged.

A subcompact car with a 10-gallon gas tank can store the energy equivalent of 7 Teslas, 15 Nissan Leafs or 23 Chevy Volts.

Fuck off with your luxury toys.

500km is not a limited range.

I care about them being clean in MY city and MY country, I couldn't care less if China poisons its people to sell us lithium.

If electric cars ever take off the electric grid is going to be fucked. Good luck finding 18 quads to fill the void left by petroleum.

I'm not a physicist, but I'm pretty sure there are many other alternatives that does not require an energy source as dense as gasoline. Besides, nobody drives 600 km in a day so for all intents and purposes an electric car is perfect for your daily commute and occasional trip outside the city.

I personally do not own a vehicle and will only purchase an electric car because gasoline is a big scam and a waste of money. I get around by BMW (bus, metro, walk). Saves me money, keeps me healthy.

>I doubt panasonic would sell batteries made from the gigafactory to tesla's competitors.

The actual cells are made in Asia for the world market. The "Giga"factory mostly focuses on the battery packs and surrounding pack tech. Yes, they also produce a few cells as well, but cell production is just not economically in a Western industrialized country as wages are way too high. Cell production is a dumb, easy process. In Vietnam or Bangladesh etc. wages are 40 times lower, thus making cell production cheaper.

>he thinks polution will only effect china

you think china gonna take one for the team?You don't think winds will push all their pollution to your city after the overproduce these meme so you get the facade of a cleaner car in a clean city

Because in a world where everyone is selling electric cars having 2 or 3 of the largest battery factories in the world will be an incredible opportunity.

Musk has always been upfront about how his plan was to use the Tesla to prove the concept and force other car makers to make electric cars. Then, he sells batteries to everyone and luxury electric vehicles with a nice name to rich consumers.

> BMW (bus, metro, walk). Saves me money, keeps me healthy.

Until Tyrone and his gang come and rob your ass and beat the shit out of you.

>>tesla is more than twice as fast
>get fucked euro cuck
The Audi A9 in production will have a top speed of 250km/h. This is the cut off for every Audi. Given the fact that premium sedans in Germany are all cut off at 250km/h and 99% of people still buy them despite this cut off, I doubt your "twice as fast" claim and that "euro cucks get fucked" as a result of Tesla claiming their cars go 500km/h (300mph). I also doubt your claim Tesla's cars can go 300mph.

The fastest street certified car is a German car (VW owned Bugatti Cheron) at 420km/h. I doubt Teslas go anywhere as fast as them.

Meh still doesn't accelerate as fast as a Tesla

I understand that, while it may be true, emotion weighs a lot for normal consumers than actual technological specs. Elon Musk, whether you like it or not, is seen as an innovator, which also bleeds into his businesses, which molds into his products.

Branding is a beast of a topic and there's a small percentage of autophiles who care about the things you listed.

Where electric cars have the edge is thermal efficiency. Gasoline remains overwhelmingly more energy dense but so much of its energy is wasted. I'm surprised we haven't seen greater use of heat recovery systems, it's better than regenerative braking. A shame it doesn't get the subsidies.

What in same range don't you understand? ICEs are completely energy inefficient, while e-drivetrains are efficient.

Call me when a subcompact car with a 10-gallon gas tank can drive 5000 km without having to gas up. Then we can talk. The question is, why would someone want to go 5000km without stopping. 600km is fine for most people to stop for 25min.

I guess you missed the news that Tesla is moving into the commercial trucking industry this fall

>I'm not a physicist, but I'm pretty sure there are many other alternatives that does not require an energy source as dense as gasoline

We require such a dense energy source because energy conversion in thermodynamics always exacts a hefty toll from the total amount of energy in the system. For a gasoline engine, only about 30% of the energy burned in the gasoline goes to moving the car. The rest goes to making noise and heating the tires and the engine.

Thermodynamics sets very bullshit rules for how efficient heat engine machines can get, and we've been right at that limit for quite a while now. There's no way around it, in fact.

We've not discovered a new energy source since photovoltaics. There's really no other rocks left to turn over. It's chemistry and heat engines or nothing. Electric cars are terribly inefficient because, like the energy conversion of chemical to kinetic, the conversion of electricity to chemical when you charge a battery, and even when you transmit the electricity, takes a really hefty toll. Unless the conditions are ideal, it often ends up being a net loss compared to other forms of energy.

We waste energy to feel like we're saving energy. Virtue signals, man.

>TFW my Audi a4 b5.5 only has a top speed of 224km/h.

At least it has fast take off speed.

what it costs to build electric will just get cheaper and cheaper. a combustion engine has 1000 parts compared to i think 10-20 for electric.

The source for the electiricity in most cases is just as inefficient as a gasoline engine, because they're both heat engines and subject to the same physical laws, but then you compound those losses by transmitting the electricity and converting it to chemical energy in the batteries.

It's fundamentally less efficient. You're just moving the energy source further from where the work is done.

You're the exact reason the Kikes are intentionally flooding Germany with shitskins and niggers you fucking douche

>you think china gonna take one for the team?
They have done it for a long time, mate. We pay them money for their lithium.

>You don't think winds will push all their pollution to your city after the overproduce these meme so you get the facade of a cleaner car in a clean city
No, I do not think so. Pollution due to lithium mining and the mining of other rare earths is mainly a groundwater issue.

Lithium is processed from lithium carbonate, and Li-carbonate is from the sun-dried remains of brine (liquid) sourced from underground reservoirs (mostly in South America). So, not too much pollution. Lithium is just a small part of the Li-ion battery. The other much more massive and bulkier materials are aluminum, copper, graphite, an electrolyte, a separator, battery casing, etc.

The pollution from processing the components other than lithium can be easily looked up online. None of them "Travel by wind".

Why is everyone copying Tesla's style? The Porsche electric looks just like this too.

>The source for the electiricity in most cases is just as inefficient as a gasoline engine, because they're both heat engines and subject to the same physical laws, but then you compound those losses by transmitting the electricity and converting it to chemical energy in the batteries.
>It's fundamentally less efficient. You're just moving the energy source further from where the work is done.

That makes no sense. You cannot have a small coal power plant on the back of your car. Well, you could, but for many reasons, car makers do not do that. The point of electric cars is that the pollution from generating electricity is centered outside of cities while the cities stay clean as at the point of electricity consumption there is no polution, thus eliminating smog.

Certain larger countries such as France also rely on a close to zero pollution electricity generation system - in France via nuclear power. In Norway via hydro power. In Denmark and Northern Germany mostly via hydro and wind power. etc.

You would have a point if oil was the only resource we had to generate electricity. In that case, ICEs would make more sense IF cars were only used outside of cities.

>How is Tesla supposed to compete with cars like this?

Tesla has a large charging station network
Tesla is cheaper
Tesla's auto-pilot has millions of miles tested and further developed
Tesla has the gigafactory to meet demand and lower costs
Tesla has first mover advantage
Tesla has cult of personality CEO (like Steve Jobs)

Can you point me towards some numbers? Like a comparison between simply burning your gasoline in your engine and burning coal or fuel oil or whatever on a plant and then charging your car and then spinning the electric motor.

Also you can get energy from hydroelectrics and nuclear, wouldn't that be more efficient? And even if you forget about efficiency, just because you can now move all your cars to hydroelectric and nuclear energy, you can save huge amounts of oil, which can then go to chemistry and plastics and shit. Sounds like a win to me, is it not?

>a top speed of 211 kmh (131 mph)

My dad's Nissan Maxima in the early 90's was faster than this.

>It's fundamentally less efficient. You're just moving the energy source further from where the work is done.
Coal in based countries costs like $50 per ton. Oil $400.

Rare earth metals.

>Why is everyone copying Tesla's style? The Porsche electric looks just like this too.
Actually, Tesla copied Lotus and then hired a European designer to copy European premium brands. That is why from the front and partially from the back, the Tesla looks like a cross from a Jap and European car.

Hard to say.
Yourr comparing tesla to say, apple but the two industries are totally different.
Apple makes consumer electronics for a massive market that requires no underlying infrastructure on apples part.
Tesla is a car.

Audi makes boring shit

Convergence.

Still waiting on these hypothetical Tesla killers to materialize. It is really easy to talk a big game when the specs and price are just a sheet of paper.

Also, all those A9 specs are much lower than the P100D that produces over 600hp and has a 60 time of 2.5 seconds.

Since when is a 40k car a "budget car". Audi, BMW, and Mercedez all have crap entry level cars that is basically a Ford Focus with a fancy emblem.

Producing batteries that are cheap, charge quickly, release energy quickly, don't overheat, are unlikely to cause safety concerns in accidents, and have the energy density to weight ratio is difficult. Tesla is already 3 - 4 years ahead in manufacturing batteries and the systems that integrate with it. If you think any of the garbage that these prestige companies will release for a few years will match the specs or reliability of a Tesla, then you are a complete retard.

>muh infrastructure
>muh charging stations
You can plug it into the wall and charge it god damn.

Because Tesla almost already has self-driving cars which is where their huge valuation comes from.

>but cell production is just not economically in a Western industrialized country as wages are way too high.
It is about pollution and regulations of chemical industry.

>Tesla has a large charging station network
828 charging stations with on average 6 chargers in Europe vs. the currently built up European network of over 50,000 stations with half a million chargers in Germany alone. Come on.

>Tesla is cheaper
More expensive. 150,000 euros for the Model X in Germany vs. e.g. 80,000 euros for the Jaguar e-Pace coming out next year... with the exact same specs! Guess what Europeans will buy.

>Tesla's auto-pilot has millions of miles tested and further developed
Actually, autonomous driving is invested by everyone in the automotive space. Tesla is just making loud claims as Tesla is a marketing company. The tech is there for everyone.

>Tesla has the gigafactory to meet demand and lower costs
That is mainly supplied by Panasonic cells which are sold to other car makers as well. There are many battery makers. Making cells in low cost countries is also cheaper than making it in high wage countries. The Gigafactory is mainly a way to avoid battery pack tariffs and to get tax subsidies in America. This is why other car makers do not bother to build their own packs and rely on specialists to build them for them. Battery packs is not a premium business, it is a budget business and there is no way a high wage country can compete in the budget manufacturing segment in a globalised world... unless you have a protectionist country putting high tariffs on battery packs (as America does, but Europe does not).

>Tesla has first mover advantage
Daimler had electric cars in production 130 years ago. But ok, I grant you that Tesla has the "first mover" advantage. But the battery tech and charging networks only allow for mass production starting in 2018 and 2019 and guess what, ALL premium brands are selling their e-cars then... with the same specs as Teslas but mostly at better prices, a bigger charging network, better car designs and a network of repair shops.

>Tesla has cult of personality CEO
Already addressed above.

Electric cars are the future, fossil fuels will run out sooner than we think

>>a top speed of 211 kmh (131 mph)
>My dad's Nissan Maxima in the early 90's was faster than this.
The production car will have the standard 155mph cut-off top speed that most German premium cars adhere to (250km/h).

topspeed.com/cars/audi/2020-audi-a9-e-tron-ar175132.html

There is only one country in the world where you can drive 250km/h legally anyway... Germany.

P.S. the Tesla after 5min at 250km/h electronically cuts down your speed to 200km/h and then to 140km/h ... to "preserve" mileage and there is nothing you can do about it. The nanny state at work, ey?

These are all meme cars for the gullible.
youtube.com/watch?v=vKnI1ujMfCA

>I'm surprised we haven't seen greater use of heat recovery systems
We have, they're called turbochargers

>Still waiting on these hypothetical Tesla killers to materialize.
What is price point parity? The switch to e-cars will only occur when consumers can see a tangible benefit from buying e-cars. This will occur around 2020 when e-cars reach price point parity with ICEs.

>bluepilled

This is extremely stupid. Up to this point I've been reading this thread with amusement as an actual professional on the topic, but this is literally elementary school grade.

>>muh infrastructure
>>muh charging stations
>You can plug it into the wall and charge it god damn.
If you want to wait 14 hours for charging it, yes. Supercharging doesn't work this way.

Also, in most of Europe and Asia, you need charging stations as cities have a different layout and cars do not all have garages. This is also why Europeans and Asians are much better at building up large-scale charging networks, while the US government does not care about putting any money in infrastructure.

The same thing will happen that always happens, by 2025, Europe and Asia will have a large scale charging infrastructure and a rapid adoption of e-cars, while America will continue to rely on oil and pollute its cities.

why would you need millions of chargers when most people will charge at home anyway

>Because Tesla almost already has self-driving cars which is where their huge valuation comes from.
>almost
Their valuation is a bubble and it will deflate. Mark my words.

Self-driving cars are 15 years away and the first really used ones will be taxis - Daimler taxis in Europe. America will never allow self-driving cars on their roads for real until Europe hasn't adopted the system. American drivers are just too damn unskilled.

>believing VW specs
not falling for that again

Energy cars is a meme.
>t. automotive engineer

He's partially right...petro fuels will run out due to wasting them making electric mememobiles.

>why would you need millions of chargers when most people will charge at home anyway

In America people may charge at home. In Europe and Asia they will charge at work or in the street where their cars stand. And for that you need city-wide charging networks and super-charging stations on autobahns and at each gas station.

>Europe has a million chargers
Yeah, all shitty low amperage connections that take 4 days to charge 100kwh battery.

>New e-cars are coming
Hardly a concern since it will just mean more infrastructure to support battery electric vehicles and incentivize more investment in battery technology.

> Autonomous driving, everyone has it.
Nope. Not one company has released auto-pilot at this scale and has a large enough data sample and safety record to even dream about releasing fully autonomous vehicles.

> Batteries are cheap everywhere
Batteries are becoming cheaper, but battery tech is not equivalent. Tesla no longer makes the 18650 which is now old tech. This is the garbage being mass-produced for your "premium" car manufacturers.

> Talks like he knows anything about Tesla's market advantages

I suppose next we will hear you tell us about how the future of cars is hydrogen fuel cells.

>500km
doa

There is already self driving cars there. Also,
>America will never allow self-driving cars on their roads
>American drivers are just too damn unskilled

What part of self driving don't you understand m8?

>Europe and Asia will have a large scale charging infrastructure and a rapid adoption of e-cars,

Will I be able to top off my aerocar & hoverbike at these?

I'm personally looking at getting an electric car. I can't wait to see governments getting their shit together to set up the infrastructure.

>>believing VW specs
>not falling for that again

Americans continue to fall for their US propaganda that German cars "did not meet some universal diesel specs". You do understand that this was all a US protectionist move to keep diesels out of America, right? There is a reason why in NO other country worldwide, VW really got in trouble or had to repair cars etc - a simple software update worked everywhere, but in America, with its "tough measures on diesels" you essentially cannot sell diesels because diesels are supposed to be soooo bad, while gasoline cars are soooo good.

Jesus, Americans are dense.

you people don't even drive that much, you don't need all that shit. stop wasting power.

>only 30%

Why have we been using gasoline for so long?

Can they automap to the nearest divorce attorney and hair plug centre?

>Self-driving cars are 15 years away and the first really used ones will be taxis - Daimler taxis in Europe. America will never allow self-driving cars on their roads for real until Europe hasn't adopted the system. American drivers are just too damn unskilled.
You have no idea what you are talking about. They are a few years away in America. Tesla cars can pretty much drive themselves already and google has already tested their cars on 2 million miles.