Free will

Where did this rumor that we have free will come from?

Things like sex drive, need to sleep, need for food and water preclude the possibility that we are each ultimately in control of our lives.

Or am I wrong?

Other urls found in this thread:

nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/news/brain-magnets-decrease-faith-in-god-religion-immigrants-a6695291.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Christianity mostly

Once you define free will its trivial to determine whether we have it or not. If you mean that we have agency as biological machines: sure -- we've evolved complex brains to predict parts of the future and therefore act within the world to fulfill our primal drives. If you mean that we aren't governed by the laws of causality: no.

you're free to choose the McChicken™, or the McChicken™

People who never grew up get angry when things don't go their way and they need an excuse for when they violently lash out at others. So the idea of "free will", along with the idea of "evil", was created as justification for torturing others in times of stress.

>Sandwich-themed dress

That's...actually pretty interesting.

For me, it's the McChicken™

I want to fuck that burger.

actually this

>Yuropoors will never be able to have a burger this cute

I choose to eat the McChicken™, thus i must have free will.

I'm so American that made me Hungry.

>free will
Another mental gymnastic trick of the Semitic slave cult and their mind virus

#JesusNeverCame

science agrees
nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/news/brain-magnets-decrease-faith-in-god-religion-immigrants-a6695291.html

but did you really choose to eat the sandwich or was the idea planted in your head from the tv or radio

>Where did this rumor that we have free will come from?

What do you think the evolutionary purpose of a consciousness is?

>evolutionary
kys

Chicken Big Mac >>>

>spain
>april

Woah somebody's up early!

To enable decision making within a defined framework

Well there you go. Free will.

Alright. All jokes and banter aside now for a moment.

Does this thing really exist?

If so, then why is it not in mouth right at this very moment?

Nothing can ever have true free will. If you go into it far enough you'll encounter a rule that negates it. For example, you can only use a handful of letters and characters to make your message decodable by another human. If you go deeper, you'll see that you can't will yourself into multiple places at once. So free will in a sense where we could do whatever we want can't exist.

cause you already have a dick in your mouth, can't have both at once

If we truly had free will how come everyone opts to have kids and live with that burden. I just think we are more automated than we prefer to imagine.

Its 1:40 AM here you burger.
Also I never sleep.

we maintain the free will to deny those needs, with consequence. free will does not preclude natural consequences to ones actions, and vice versa.

I can though. You don't know me.

Nice post. I like it

So what would you define our capacity for decision making as?

hot

Cant argue with that

>Things like sex drive, need to sleep, need for food and water
How does that preclude free will? These are basic lower-order needs to maintain the functioning of our body.
Are we also deprived of free will because gravity always pulls us back to earth and we can't fly away as we want?

>that we are each ultimately in control of our lives.
I think you're mixing up two things.

Depends on the task. As I previously mentioned, comunication is pretty shallow, existing is quite deep...

When you talk of free will in religion, it's just fucking stupid and implies you don't have free will.
case in point
>God has mysterious plans for you
>let jesus take the wheel
>God wills it
>god gave you free will so you can fuck up and sin so you get to choose heaven or hell
All that implies to me is you get two options, and you maintain the illusion of free will while god already planned every thing, or is playing an epic game of the sims and keeps taking the ladders out of the pool or placing the couches way too close to the fireplace.

I much prefer the concept of free will with out a god. Not to say I'm totally aetheist, but that's a conversation for another thread. It just mkes mor sense that you have autonomy of your own life but are restricted by your biological constraints like eating, sleeping, and the limit to your physical attributes as a human. But really does those things mean you don't have free will? You can go with out food for a time. You can stay up for days at a time if the need is there and you push it. Hell people even kill them selves, if that's not a perfect example of free will then what is?

Explain committing suicide , it does against every natural instinct and is directly opposed by the individual survival and societies' (suicide is frowned upon in nearly all religious, moral and social systems)

Grass hoppers commit suicide when they get infected with a parasite. your argument: destroyed.

Read up

So do lemmings. They just jump off of a cliff.

why is this on Sup Forums ?
sage goes in the option field

>it does against every natural instinct and is directly opposed by the individual survival and societies

Lemmings?
Can animals even comprehend that they can kill themselves? It's not uncommon for animals to go and hide somehwere when they are ill and wait for death.

just because gravity is a downward force doesn't mean things can't move side to side you fucking idiot

>Things like sex drive, need to sleep, need for food and water preclude the possibility that we are each ultimately in control of our lives.
this doesn't negate freedom of will
minimally, free will in philosophy means "the ability to not choose X"

It's not an all or nothing thing. The only hypothetical being ever free (in the absolutist fashion you mean), would be the one to set the conditions of existence. IE: God.

For one they monopolize our time and bias our motivation

The simple answer is that if you are free or not does not matter, as a fact you are only capable of understanding that which you can understand all else cannot be understood and as such is not relevant becouse no matter how hard you try you wll never be capable of acting upon it

>Can animals even comprehend that they can kill themselves? It's not uncommon for animals to go and hide somehwere when they are ill and wait for death

What makes you think your thoughts are the epitome of understanding suicide

I got given one by mistake when I ordered a big mac. It was fine as far as McDs goes.

that's a myth

Suicide is a good example for the argument of free will. And sometimes it does seem like god is taking the ladders out of the pool, as you put it. It wouldnt shock me.

you're free to choose the McChick™, or the McCock™

A person reaches a point where pain overtakes fear of death. Its really just a reaction to stimulus like everything else.

Happy people dont choose to kill themselves.

I could go either way on this issue.

>minimally, free will in philosophy means "the ability to not choose X"
Nobody can choose to stop being affected by gravity and you can't use "muh degrees" as an argument because free will as a concept only works in absolutes.

I wanna fuck that sandwich

>Suicide is a good example for the argument of free will.
Why? Is nature not allowed to fuck up every once in a while? A person who commits suicide is like a dog born with five legs. They're just defective, don't read into it too much.

X isn't any one thing you want to sub into there, it's anything

>i can't choose to turn into a duck, therefore there is no free-will
you can choose to read to this post or not to read this post, therefore, you have free will

i don't know what you're talking about with degrees

Can't remember where I heard it but somebody said having free will is scary because it allows you to kill yourself as in willingly jump off a building.

This isn't quite right. God's plan for you in the Christian sense is something you can fail to live up to. You have to choose it is their point.

Thirst yourself to death to prove you have free will

You don't need free will to kill yourself, though. A robot could kill itself by mistake, or even "on purpose" if its software was faulty.

The fact that I have what you arbitrarily decide is a "choice" in some situations isn't relevant because, without absolute freedom, there is zero freedom because somebody can still be influenced into doing anything. The idea of choice, fault, etc are all incoherent and only used by animals that want a contrived justification for their childish behaviors.

...

>Suicide is a good example for the argument of free will.
Implying that suicide is actually free will and not just a neurological disease/disorder.

Of course you can kill yourself on accident, but free will gives a reason to that. Sure you can accidentaly eat a poisonous mushroom, but you can also hang yourself. One of those take a lot more work than the other...

But then you'd be doing it to prove a point, not out of free will.

the "free" in "free will" is your will, your volition, your ability to make choices, rather than just being an automaton with no agency.
it's not freedom from outside influences, you're talking about something different.

>The idea of choice, fault, etc are all incoherent and only used by animals that want a contrived justification for their childish behaviors.
how is the existence of choice justification for childish behaviors?
what do you find incoherent about the idea of choice?

do you want to respond to this post or no?

You don't need free will to hang yourself, though. Your brain could just have an error in it.

We have free will. We don't have absolute freedom.
You can will yourself to not follow your urges. You can will yourself going against the boundaries of reality.

Choice is real. You will always have choice.

>Need for food, water sleep and sex prove there is no free will

There are literally people that prove that these things can be ignored and over come. Monastics, for example, don't eat or drink for days, deprive themselves of sleep, and many never have sex.

These urges certainly have an important regulatory impact and are meant to keep us alive, but they don't either prove or disprove free will.

You guys are all conflating things that might influence to mean you have no choice. This is fucking stupid.

If I watch a Chevy commercial or is trying to influence me. I choose to not buy one.

Come the fuck on you idiots.

Thank you. This burger gets it.

>Killing yourself is a disease
Retard

>Or am I wrong?
Youre a reprobate.
Google it.

instincts are not part of your free will, that's a dumb way to do this analysis.

a more suitable way is to compare the fact that you can't live frugally if you want to attract a mate, that's more like lack of free will and being chained to a societal norm

Depends what you consider an error.There have been cases of completely healthy people committing suicide.

>cars need maintenance and gasoline, and can't drive on water, therefore you can't steer them however you want
No, OP, that doesn't follow.

>your ability to make choices, rather than just being an automaton with no agency.
How does an automaton not make choices? It weights outcomes and chooses the one it judges to be better.

Obviously they weren't mentally healthy if they killed themselves. That's like saying "there are cases of completely healthy people dying of cancer".

>Things like sex drive
Cut your balls off! instantly drop that sex drive to the floor. Free will choice.
>Need to sleep
Smoke some meth. Stay up for a week. Free will choice.
>Need for food and water
Smoke more meth

Free will exists you just need to know where to look for your answers user.

None of that requires free will. A robot could analyze a problem and find a solution, which is all that you're doing.

So you would describe curiosity as a disease?

Automaton with no agency means that the system makes an identical conclusion everytime. There is low and high level decision making.

Only if it causes harm.

There are automatons that don't make the same decision every time.

Difference being that a human can make a choice in any given situation while a robot can not.

What do you mean only if it causes harm? If curiosity is a disease that would mean all of the progress we have made, be it scientific or not, has been made by sick people? I think your logic is flawed.

Under the same set of circumstances, a human would come to an identical conclusion every time. As in, if you could roll back time and re-make a decision, you would end up making the same decision you did before. Claiming otherwise is denying causality.

Robots can make choices, though.

That's how we define mental disorders. Unusual thought processes are fine. They're only a problem if they cause harm.

My r9k irl friend killed a cat and skinned it because he was curious.

Well if being curious about life after death or the existance of one is considered a disease, then being curious about outer space is a disease. We are dealing in absoultes here.

btw the flaw there is your understanding of curiosity applying to everyday things such as if I steal something will I get caught.

'Curiosity killed the cat'

Go to bed blydo

You're a moron.

Robots can only make choices based on their programmed parameters.

That's the whole problem of general AI.

You need to do some more learning in these topics methinks, I don't mean to say that as a dick, It just seems like you're missing some really core concepts.

You're trying to connect dots that have already been connected, but you either don't understand why they are connected or you're not aware of the connections.

Bro, people, including you and me have the absolute power to decide to not have kids... free will to me is as real as gravity.

Not that I don't see what you mean, we do have extremely powerful urges to do biological "duties", but we still have control of our choices.

Everyone here who says we have no say in our choices, is just using the fatend argument to make up for they're shit lives.

Nut up or shut up. Real men have free will. Cucks reject it, for fear of waking up.

Free will. Is part of the redpill.

Yes. Human brain is one such. Choice does not imply free will by itself but the ability to paradoxically choose against choosing. This is something AI researchers currently try to solve and what separates AI from humans.

We can make a decision based on abandoning all input indefinetly. And this quarantees us freedom to choose (or not choose which is a choice too).

Another problem of freewill is the problem of the body.

Vision, for example, is basically fucking magic but sight is unbelievably core to human existence.

There is a fallacy in your thinking--you create a distinction where there is none: You and the world are inseparable.

This^ the fact that we can make a choice to not choose separates us

>bump
quality thread; feels like /old/pol is back

Problem of determinism is that it's only observable in the past. Observing a probable deterministic path to the future automatically gives us the choice to deny that path. This is why it can't be used to predict future.

>This is something AI researchers currently try to solve and what separates AI from humans.
What "AI researchers"? The ones that you need to stop taking your meds to be able to see?

>We can make a decision based on abandoning all input indefinetly.
I clearly can't make a decision based on abandoning the input of gravity.

Oh look another gay ass thread by captain micropenis.

Uh guys I so scare maybe free will no exis

Just another Jewish critical theory tactic to undermine Western theology and value systems.

Suck a horde of syphilitic mongrel dicks

Curiosity is curiosity no matter how you understand it.

Also, crikey m8, 'ave a gander a' that sheila. She got legs of a wallaby.