FREE WILL

So I just read a few books about hard determinism and I'm really convinced by its arguments.
According to it's logic, a nigger who commits evil isn't really responsible for his actions.
When I make a choice/action, I can not help thinking that it is not really "me" who chooses, if this "me" is itself, in fact, only the reflection of causes that escape it, of experiences which he does not choose, and so on. How to carry out our existence with that on consciousness?

Anything I should read to get back my faith on free will?
I can't live convinced by that determinism shit, everytime a refugee do bad I can't help but think "oh well he was determined to do so, poor guy"
I'm becoming a SJW.

just because the future is pre determined doesnt mean you have to accept and forgive criminals. you may think that's cruel, but the world is cruel. the true solution is to ensure the criminal is never born in the first place.

That "reflection" is still responsible for its actions. Try using the argument "I'm not responsible for my actions, it was predetermined that i commit the crime" in a court of law. You'll get laughed at and thrown in prison.
Taking responsibility for our actions is what separates a sentient being from mere animals

I'd like to add that when a society believes in determinism, that doesn't necessitate a removal of the justice system. Rather it just changes its goals slightly. There are some humans that are simply born with genetics or circumstances that make them incompatible with society. Those people simply need to be removed from society. There are yet others who simply need help adjusting to society, even if they commit egregious crimes. These are the ones that require the justice system to adapt. We should be working on rehabilitating those, rather than trying to punish them because we erroneously believe they have simply made the choice to be bad.

Here's another hard truth for you since you seem to be into that if you're reading about how we don't have free will. The only reason why the human body is so robust today is because countless humans lived a suffering and miserable life from birth through no fault of their own, and our species must continue this trend of we want to remain as we are. That means we have to commit ourselves to some sort of genetic hygiene program, either through technology or selective pressures.

This is patently false and your arguments to support it are fallacious. Relativity proves that the future is predetermined.

courts of law don't work because they are based on the fact that human have free will

>a nigger who commits evil isn't really responsible for his actions.

And neither is a mob that hangs him on a tree.

Yes this is correct, revenge is pointless

If you hang him to take revenge you are wrong
if you hang him because he is dangerous to society I guess you are right but there's other possibilities

and so is this

but the argument isn't that it's wrong or right, but that it is predetermined. Even your discovery of this phenomenon and making this thread was predetermined.

I can't be wrong becasue I don't have a free will.

Regardless of your genetic or social circumstances, both good and bad or right and wrong are a choice that every man must make for himself and must live with the consequences of that choice.

Tell that to your prison cell mate. You chose to stop believing in free will, ironically. I really don't care whether you do or not, but don't try and pretend the rules no longer apply to you. Actually, go ahead. Record it and post results.

I said wrong/right because after understanding determinism and the causes that made the nigger act like he did you shouldn't take revenge on him

But you never have a choice to begin with this is what bothers me the most

>don't try and pretend the rules no longer apply to you.
Nobody said that.

This is false. Here's a hard proof: Relativity shows us that events that took place in your past can be in my future. So if my choices can affect my future, does that mean my choices can also affect your past? That would create a paradox. Therefore events are predetermined.

And intuitively, doesn't this make sense? Matter always behaves in a way that is predictable. If you strike a billiard ball, does it ever not move? All you must do now is expand this reasoning to the fact that your brain is made up of matter. Can you define the quality of life that excludes us from this truth in a scientific way? If not you have no basis for your belief.

You will adapt to the fact. You are human, one of the most dangerous adaptors in the planet, emissary of complexity, acting hand of entropy.

The individual compared to society is like a water molecule compared to the river. The former has much greater 'freedom' (randomity) than the latter. Our species - as a whole - carries the chains of sociotechnological evolution. As long as you don't expect your individual existence has any greater meaning other then to yourself and those who love you, you can deal with your genetic and cultural programming in a wide variety of ways.

This guy gets it

Actually I didn't choose, I had no choice. Just like nothing you do is your choice. I suppose your brain can't handle the idea that rules still apply to those who do not have free will.

True words my friend, the criminal is something akin to human but is still separated from us, that similarity makes it easier for them to hide between us but the difference is something that will forever be ingrained in their very being, there is no redemption for the wrong one for they believe their actions are justified.

More like you can't handle being responsible for your own actions, but go ahead and pretend that you have no free will. As I said, I don't care.
You implied it, and by your logic I am not wrong in thinking you did.

It seems like you really got the subject so let me ask you because it just striked me not long ago
How do you deal with the fact that we are nothing more that puppets? No choice, no merit
even me doing hard work at the gym since 4 years wasn't on my own will and determination
feels bad man

>you shouldn't take revenge on him

Why? Is putting him in jail ok? If yes then why killing him would be any different?

So when you did that really nice thing for your mother that you knew you REALLY DIDNT WANT TO FUCKING DO but it really made her happy?
Why'd you do it if your nourons were telling you no?
>what do you mean? If I did it the nourons said yes.
When you go to work in the morning what's really moaning?

He is in jail because in his state of mind he is dangerous to society but he still can be rehabilitated. it's not to take revenge
by killing him he cannot change

that's just morality

That's not even how relativity works. Events are only predetermined by actions, and actions are performed by conscious choice. When two scenarios are equally likely, what would cause a person to choose one over the other?
And if you had taken more than a basic physics course you'd know that there are many, many unpredictable things in this world. Heisenberg principle hasn't been disproven yet.

Hah! Well I never really found it disturbing, I suppose. So I'm afraid I can't really help you there. To say we are puppets isn't entirely accurate though. Puppets have a puppetmaster. We're more like automatons.

However, that being said, perhaps it helps you to realize what really matters in life. Even if you are an automaton, you will still continue as you were. You will still continue to work hard, fight for what you believe in and what you want, and gather experience in life and seek pleasure.

Life isn't about forcing what you want to be true. It's about living with the truth. I've found that dwelling on a particularly damning truth is never helpful, as that's a tactic we employ when we want to find a solution to a problem. Some problems simply have no solution but to change the way we view the problem. A problem is only so because we have deemed it something we want to change. If we can learn to change our thinking, then we can accept anything. I think that a lot of eastern philosophy is more or less based on this concept.

>relativity is based on conscious choice
lmao okay brainlet

Then good luck trying to enjoy a life of nihilism.

>does that mean my choices can also affect your past?

No. There is no going back in time, only forward, because time is linear. Your entire premise of predetermination is based on a falsehood.

Life as a human is brutal. Bad things happen to perfectly innocent people, why are you surprised that bad things happen to criminals?

That's something you should realize about life. It may not be quite as interesting to pontificate about over a cup of coffee, but you'd do well for yourself to leave it at that. The funny thing is, people for most of history have understood that this was the case (you're lucky if bad shit doesn't happen to you, and if you break man's law it drastically increases your chances of bad shit happening to you.) Our universities, I'm convinced, fill people's head with this nonsense. And even people not in universities end up becoming attracted to the pseudo intellectual ramblings of circumlocutors who speak at universities and write articles and books on philosophy and ethics or whatever. The whole area of study is a self-perpetuating popmpous scholarship consisting of stoner conversations in the university setting. They sit around and talk bullshit, and other professional bullshit talkers end up making their students read about the bullshit- it's a never ending cycle. It's absurd that people take these notions to heart and actually bring them out of the silly world of academia and try to apply them to real-life.

Free will means literally nothing.

Everything bad would be bad anyway.

Everything good would be good anyway.

Your reasons for doing something never include "and I'm free."

Philosophical "problems" are just high level neuroses for people who mistake words for things.

Think it through nigga, it's fucking nothing.

>Worry about weak and strong wills, not free ones.
>Pic related

revenge is a natural feeling humans get to motivate killing off people incompatible with the environment saying it, saying it's pointless is asinine.

The truth is that whatever happens was destined to happen by the very atoms that make up the universe. There was only one possibility from the big bang. This is why I don't like the multiverse theory, it implies variability in the universe which I don't like the idea of.

>No.
Uhh okay then I guess you agree with me? I also said no. You're correct that you can't go back in time, that's exactly why determinism is true. However, events do lag between observers.

Swiss bro, you have this sense of defeatism and seem to think nobody is to blame. What makes you different from your neighbor is all the different choices you both took to get to your respective positions.
If I went out and murdered 5 people today it would be because I did so in free will. If a nigger steals a bike it is it's choice to do so. The nigger could get by just fine using his legs but had chosen the easy route. Determinism is only true insofar as your conditioning as a human. Outside of that it is your free will.

The difference between the past and the future is that the former is determined. I honestly don't understand determinists. Do you really believe that every choice you ever made was predetermined? Isn't our capability of choice what makes us human and diferentiates us from animals? If a person kills for money rather than to survive, you're telling me they didn't make that choice? Free will is a sign of God's love for humans. Give that love back by not making stupid choices, like believeing in determinism. Why do people need a logical argument to believe in free will? That doesn't make any sense! If it's free, it shouldn't be logical, you dumwits! We have brains AND hearts! Believe your instincts.
I don't know, maybe you just never had a big choice to make. Once you find yourself in that kind of a situation, you will see.

>that's just morality

If there's no free will then there's no morality.

You can't convince him by asserting facts that he believes are false. Any argument from free will is useless. You would have to first convince him that free will exists at all, but that would be like trying to say 1+1=3.

determinism is the real red pill but it doesn't mean that we as a species can't learn from the past and make better systems and safeguards
not like this discussion matters anyway tbf

It appeals to people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.

The paths which we choose have already been laid out by genes and fate, but which ones we choose are of our own free will.

nothing say we shouldn't.
I think OP trying to say that origins of crime are social, not biological. Which is obvious

The fact of knowing that there's only determinism will change your morality and your judgment consequently

Got any hard evidence to back up your claim?

/thread

Free will is a meme, but that doesn't mean you can escape this non-free will in any way so changing your mindset or efforts won't stop anything. just chace your interests and be happy

Uh no, he's saying free will doesn't exist. Whatever arbitrary factors you attribute this to be them social, biological, or otherwise is irrelevant.

You have yet to bring any actual proof of your argument. Determinism is only real in your head.

Your read a book on determinism without a strong understanding of logic - that is why you were snowed.

Modern schools, run by conniving Marxists, have all dropped logic from the curriculum.

Look up the Trivium to learn about oh it used to be taught.

To cure your current lameness:

1) search for an take that Ayn Rand course introduction to logic. It is about 20 hours of instruction in Aristotelian logic.

2) To cure your faggot SJW leanings read Atlas Shrugged and The virtue of Selfishness.

3) Enjoy a life based in reality and not Marxist lies.

I Wish you were right my friend but according to the logic if you do something it's because A B C D X causes... made you to do it, not by your own choice

If you go back 10 years and your memory of the last 10 years was wiped, would you act differently then you did the first time? I don't think so, you're just reacting to external factors.

there is no free will. Get over it dumbo. Either it is random like indeterminim or predetermined as detetminism say

>It appeals to people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.
Bullshit
I made this thread exactly because I want to take responsability for my actions
Because I want to believe that all the efforts I made in my life were from ME and my choices and not by fucking univers causality
because I don't want to be a puppet
because I want to be convinced by good arguments that free will is real

Though there are outside forces at play doesn't nullify the fact that you made that choice to go out that day and not sit in your room in quiet contemplation. What of spontaneity? Is that an oxymoron?

Hmm not so sure it was all fixed but I'm no physicist.

Determined by physical law or determined by randomness, either way we ain't free.

Free will is an incoherent concept anyway.

Free --> undetermined
Will --> determined

It's not really willing to will any random event. So whatever you will must have a reason behind it, and a reason is a constraint. I want a banana because it's cheaper than an apple. But wait, now my will is unfree. Oops. That's what happens when you slap incompatible concepts together.

Free will is basically red greenness. It's dumb. Don't waste time on it.

It's logical but it's wildly impractical. If you have two guys, one of whom says "I decided to" and gets on with it while the other gets lost in a philosophical black hole around computational neuroscience every time he does anything, who gets ahead? Who wins?
We use shortcuts to get shit done

I already gave a hard proof. You tried to disagree with it but you actually agreed with me instead, which leads me to believe that you can't really comprehend the proof. Go watch some physics lectures then get back to me.

delete this :(

>Falling for the hard determinism jew
>Falling for the free will meme

Neither exists in their classical sense.
You have choices but they are limited.
The universe is not determined but it is predictable.
Realize that choice and determinism are not concepts of equal scale; you can be a pre-determined emergent property of the universe and still have choice (but not free will).
And don't expect to understand this all after reading just one book.

You fuckos need to ditch the pseudo intellectual "important thinkers." Jimmy Buffet is all you need.

>Some people claim that there's a woman to blame, But I know it's nobody's fault

>Some people claim that there's a woman to blame, Now I think - hell it could be my fault.

>Yes, and some people claim that there's a woman to blame, And I know it's my own damn fault.

Anyone who is slightly proud of their choices or mindful knows that free will exists. Kek but anywho who is a backslidden foot dragger or half-ass believes it's just the "universe's fault man"

I can fuck your ass and I am not responsible

A rabid dog bites you because of how the world shaped it. It had no choice in biting you, and in a better world it may not have caught the disease that made it bite you, but the dog is still rabid and until we can cure it we have to put it down. There's no reason to feel bad about that.

amores perros deals with this