Redpill me on pic related.
I've tried to read it so many times in all its pseudo-Jacobean (despite the "translation" supposedly taking place in the 19th century) glory and it's an utter fucking chore. The Bible is a wonderful book with great stories and elegant poetry and this book tries so hard to be like it yet fails on every level. Mark Twain was right to call it "chloroform put to print".
Moroni was right to bury this shit in Joseph Smith's backyard, I tell ya what.
Other urls found in this thread:
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utlm.org
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lds.org
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There's been so many threads like this lately. Didn't know Sup Forums is so scared of based Mormons.
The work of Jesus was completed in the cross.
Joseph Smith claimed to translate this book from metal plates written in Reformed Egyptian which has never existed.
Joseph Smith bought some Egyptian papyri and claimed he had divine knowledge that he could translate Egyptian and that the papyri supported his prophecy scam.
When the Rosetta stone was discovered Egyptian could be translated and the papyri were discovered to be pagan funeral rights.
>it's an utter fucking chore.
It gets better when you get past the first 3rd or so which is the driest.
>The Bible is a wonderful book with great stories and elegant poetry
Leviticus is beautiful and elegant isnt it.
>Joseph Smith claimed to translate this book from metal plates written in Reformed Egyptian which has never existed.
Even the people who left the church didnt deny they witnessed the plates, even when offered money.
>Joseph Smith bought some Egyptian papyri and claimed he had divine knowledge that he could translate Egyptian and that the papyri supported his prophecy scam.
Part of being a prophet.
>When the Rosetta stone was discovered Egyptian could be translated and the papyri were discovered to be pagan funeral rights.
Nah, it was that it was simmilar, the fragments we have left from Smith aren't regular ones.
I had a revelation the other day: People that shit on Mormons are lowlifes
Of course the Mormon ideology is bogus...almost everything anyboy believes in the spiritual sense is bogus.
But Mormons live pretty much the most ubermensche life you could. They make shit tons of money. They are humble/pious. They are friendly. And they go out of their way for years on end to the shittiest places on earth (usually africa) to build houses, water systems, farmlands, etc. They are basically real life Ned Flanders
And these arseholes like Matt and Trey Parker (are they lovers or something?) are gunna go and make fun of them by making a damn musical?
I am an Athiest, but if you asked me which neighbourhood I'd like to raise my kids....or which neighbourhood I'd feel safest walking down the street at 2 am with a wallet full of cash...it'd be a Mormon neighbourhood
That you, James?
THumP Trump in 2020
Disillusioned Mormon here. I spent two years in a foreign country shilling this shit. Believing a load of horsecrap as big as Joe Smith's requires an unprecedented level of mental gymnastics.
>It's an utter fucking chore
Yep. There's a reason, too. One in nine chapters in the Book of Mormon is directly copied from the Bible. The rest is a crude rehashing of faux-Biblical works of fiction like View of the Hebrews, which Smith likely plagiarized.
>The people who left the church didn't deny they witnessed the plates
They had their own reputations to protect. But wait, did they really see the plates? Nope! They witnessed them "with their spiritual eyes." That's right; Joseph himself was the only person to ever actually see the plates before they were taken away from the earth. Hmm.
>Translating Egyptian papyri was part of being a prophet
Smith "translated" the papyri into a grand collage of Abrahamic prophecy. But wait: it turns out the papyri were common burial scrolls, and modern Egyptologists agree that they contain absolutely nothing relating to what Joseph Smith "translated."
By the way, Smith's prophetic abilities were thoroughly debunked when he "translated" some fake ancient plates that had really been inscribed with gibberish to test the veracity of his claims.
Joseph Smith was a fraud, a liar, and a pedophile, and the church he established continues this legacy of deception as it financially and psychologically manipulates its members.
But hey, it's non-degenerate! Just keep on paying your mandatory 10% tithing to us, Goy..er, Latter-day Saints! Pray, pay, and obey--that's the only way.
Mormonism is where one guy fucks the wife you would've had. They're honorary mudslimes.
Islam and Mormonism need to be combined together to form the true red pilled religion.
Nope
>They had their own reputations to protect
You think giving legitimacy to a group as bizarre and disliked by Mormons helped protect their reputation? Outing the mormons as a con job would have been the best thing to do to repair their reputation especially those who joined mainstream churches afterwards. - indeed they actually damaged their repuations by not dennying their witness.
>But wait, did they really see the plates? Nope! They witnessed them "with their spiritual eyes." That's right; Joseph himself was the only person to ever actually see the plates before they were taken away from the earth. Hmm.
Only Martin Harris said that, none of the other 10 did and the 8 witnesses personally handled the plates.
>Smith "translated" the papyri into a grand collage of Abrahamic prophecy. But wait: it turns out the papyri were common burial scrolls, and modern Egyptologists agree that they contain absolutely nothing relating to what Joseph Smith "translated."
They aren't ordinary, the burial scrolls are simply the thing they resembele the most. Likewise we only have tiny fragments of the much larger work smith translated from.
>Joseph Smith was a fraud, a liar, and a pedophile, and the church he established continues this legacy of deception as it financially and psychologically manipulates its members.
Have you read about the lives of the other prophets and fellows in the OT? Smiths lifes is pretty benign compared to theirs.
Just look at the lives of Jacob and Joeseph.
>Martin Harris
Harris was deeply vested in the selling of the Book of Mormon; he mortgaged his farm to pay for its printing. Furthermore, he was extremely superstitious, claiming the sputtering of candles as he read scriptures to be Satan desiring him to stop. He had changed religions 5 times before he converted to Mormonism.
>None of the other 10 did and the 8 witnesses personally handled the plates
All evidence indicates that the witnesses did not actually, physically see the plates. Here are some of their descriptions:
"While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates"
"I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state"
"He only saw the plates with a spiritual eye"
"Never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination"
"They were shown to me by a supernatural power"
(cont.)
I SLAUGHTERED
THE CHINESE
>The 8 witnesses personally handled the plates
Yes, they hefted the plates...in a closed box with a tablecloth over them. Bear in mind that if the plates were indeed gold and the size Smith claimed, they would have weighed a little over 200 pounds.
>They aren't ordinary, the burial scrolls are simply the thing they resembele the most. Likewise we only have tiny fragments of the much larger work smith translated from.
Both LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the scrolls are funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham.
We do have access to Joseph Smith's translations of the Book of Abraham facsimiles, which all contain blatant errors (mistaking men for women, canopic jars for idols, etc) and "translations" of individual characters which are completely in error. Regardless of whether or not there were other texts, we know that the portion we have does not match one bit with Smith's phony translation.
(cont.)
Do we need a Mormon thread every night? Are they the next target because they make white babies?
Also, why is it always the same Book of Mormon picture in every one of these threads. Why not a picture of Joe Smith or Brigham Young or even the fucking musical. It always devolves down to
>muh magic underwear
>muh CIA
>muh polygamy
>muh false prophet
The book is a boring piece of shit written in faux King James English.
The people are all right, though.
Christians that focus to much on the bible DLC
Got hot virgin girls tho
>a book of laws is beautiful and elegant isn't it
Nice cherry picking, faggot. Even the narrative elements of the Pentateuch (from which Leviticus is taken) such as Genesis and Exodus blow anything from the Book of Mormon out of the water. Don't even bother with the Psalms.
This.
Regardless of whether or not the Bible is true, it is a remarkable, complex, and original work of literature.
The Book of Mormon is anything but.
The Book of Mormon is the most boring religious text I've ever read.
It's like Joseph Smith deliberately tried to rip off of King James to create an Americanized Christianity, oh wait...
>Harris was deeply vested in the selling of the Book of Mormon; he mortgaged his farm to pay for its printing.
He only funded it after he witnessed it and had sent it to a professor of linguistics.
>All evidence indicates that the witnesses did not actually, physically see the plates.
Source? the deceleration they signed and never recounted suggests otherwise
>Yes, they hefted the plates...in a closed box with a tablecloth over them. Bear in mind that if the plates were indeed gold and the size Smith claimed, they would have weighed a little over 200 pounds.
Source of Smith saying they were solid gold and not golden/ some composite alloy?
>Both LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the scrolls are funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham.
Source on LDS claiming this?
im an ex mormon. and i agree with this user
Here's one Mormon apologist's explanation:
lds.org
>Nice cherry picking, faggot.
"The Bible is a wonderful book with great stories and elegant poetry"*
Except when it isn't but lets just ignore that.
IMHO as an outsideemodern moderate Mormons are weird and cultists as a religion.
But if u want to look at how the church of smith probably operated look at Warren Jeff and his FLDS. Creepy shit. They built a giant temple where he raped young women and so many other fucked up things
utlm.org
Shadow of Reality by Sandra Tanner. She's a descendants of Brigham Young's currently living in Salt Lake City. The church has old archives that arent available to the public anymore, but she photocopied them before they were locked away. Her book debunks mormonism by using it's own history against it.
it sounds like this user has read it desu
That account is very different from saying
"that the scrolls are funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham."
The KJV prose is confusing. It makes the Book of Mormon a mystery to read.
As a ex mormon, this leaf is right. Religion is nuts, but they are good people.
Also I disagree with the south park thing. The episodes, and the play while making fun of them, are also doing it in a kind sort of way. Like the one where those mormons move in, and stans dad gets really into it. At the end they say " geez, their beliefs are weird, but they are the nicest people". I think this stems from the fact that both matt and trey grew up in a town with them. I've personally never felt horrible intent, hell I get annoyed more at people like McMuffin and Romney.
Besides Mormons like the persecution, makes them feel like the Jews.
[spoiler] This is a far better refutation of the Book of Mormon as it tracks down the non biblical sources Smith relied on youtube.com
>Source? the deceleration they signed and never recounted suggests otherwise
See the following:
>Early Mormon Documents (EMD) 2:346-47
>EMD 2:346-47
>Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958
>Zenas H. Gurley, Jr. Interview with David Whitmer on Jan. 14, 1885
>Letter from Stephen Burnett to Br. Johnson, 1838, in J.S. Letter Book p. 2
I can provide more if needed.
>The declaration they signed and never recounted suggests otherwise
In fact, the witnesses did not actually sign the declaration. The entire document, including their "signatures", was written by Cowdery. See sources above for why they likely didn't actually see the physical plates.
Also, Smith never looked at the plates while translating, either. He placed a stone he had found inside of his hat and read the words off of the stone, with the plates supposedly in a different room.
Why bother with the plates in the first place?
will give this a watch thank you user
Mormonism is actually a folk Christianity.
Here's a better one:
>None of the characters on the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham’s name or any of the events recorded in the book of Abraham. Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham, though there is not unanimity, even among non-Mormon scholars, about the proper interpretation of the vignettes on these fragments.
lds.org
So they're basically Jews
The Bible is more than one work of literature you ignorant swine.
Tip that fedora any harder and you'll cause an earthquake, you fucking faggot.
They will get poz'd with homo and female leadership like what is happening to the methodists right now and already happened to the presbys.
>source saying they were solid gold and not golden/some composite alloy
Not Smith, but one of the three witnesses.
>In an interview that appeared in the Saint’s Herald, David Whitmer, another one of the Three Witnesses, stated that the plates were made of “pure gold.”
Saints’ Herald, February 15, 1878, 57.
He's dealt with the other claims.
Unlikely. Women still can't hold the priesthood. They still teach saying you can only get sealed to your children in a temple marriage only with a man and women. They haven't changed much social crap since the foundation outside letting blacks in, and stopping polygamy(the main branch anyway).
I'm an active, though disillusioned Mormon.
Yes, there are lots of problems with the cultures, and as others have mentioned, there are various leaps in logic that must be made in order to agree with everything. There's some weirdness in the history, too.
There are two reasons why I stay: first, because the church provides a wonderful structure in which to raise children that are not taken up by addictions. Second, because I've had incredibly positive, spiritual experiences in the LDS temples that surpass my understanding.
I'm very, very frustrated with the church culture, and there are parts of the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon, that are pretty tough to swallow in order to call myself a believe. But the positive far, far outweighs the negative. So I'm staying for that.
opiate of the masses
Good on you user. Have a big family, keep good values.
I can relate. Before my mission, I also stayed because I felt like the pros outweighed the cons. My mission was what ruined it for me. I've never fully believed the church doctrine, and I found more and more contradictions the more I studied. I feel like I've been living a lie for my whole life.
Now, I still go to church to avoid traumatizing my family. I still keep most of the commandments because I find them to be beneficial to my life. But as soon as I get a chance, I'll be leaving for good.
>Early Mormon Documents (EMD) 2:346-47
>EMD 2:346-47
That was just for Martin Harris.
>Letter from Stephen Burnett to Br. Johnson, 1838, in J.S. Letter Book p. 2
A letter written by someone who wasn't a witness who imputed that that the other witnesses must have not seen them because of the experience of Martin Harris. Hardly a source that the other wittnesses did not see or handle it.
>Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958
I can hardly respond to someone just citing and entire book.
>Zenas H. Gurley, Jr. Interview with David Whitmer on Jan. 14, 1885
That is an interesting one, any other simmilar works from others of the 8?
>In fact, the witnesses did not actually sign the declaration.
Your Stephen Burneet letter states otherwise.
>
Also, Smith never looked at the plates while translating, either. He placed a stone he had found inside of his hat and read the words off of the stone, with the plates supposedly in a different room.
For parts of it, for others he mounted those stones into a pair of glasess mounted on a breastplate.
I do agree that its pretty BS when they show him translating it sans the stones or hat.
>Why bother with the plates in the first place?
Probably because of their historical signifigance.
Plagiarized as fuck
youtube.com
And proven fraud
youtube.com
[spoiler]Its a bit slow at the start, but it heats up and towards the end it shows how clever Smith was in playing the linguistics professor - like a tom sawyer on steroids[/spoiler]
What are your thoughts on the modern prophets being prophets?
>Not Smith, but one of the three witnesses.
bit of difference there then given it wasnt smith or any of the 8.
>For parts of it, for others he mounted those stones into a pair of glasess mounted on a breastplate.
Those are the Urim and Thummim, which he claimed he found with the plates. The stone he used to "translate" most of the plates was a stone he himself found elsewhere. See:
lds.org
>Probably because of their historical significance
If the plates were given to Smith for their historical significance, why were they taken off the earth when few (arguably nobody except Smith) had actually seen them? Why not allow them to stand as powerful evidence for the veracity of Smith's claims?
>one of the three witnesses
>IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE IT WASN'T THE 8
No, it's not a difference that matters in any way. There's also the letter Smith's Mom sent to a friend, stating it was pure Gold.
" “where he could dig to obtain an ancient record engraven upon plates made of pure gold and this he is able to translate.”
>Dean C. Jessee, “Lucy Mack Smith’s 1829 Letter to Mary Smith Pierce,” BYU Studies, Fall 1982, 461.
Or we could just use the Mosiah 8:9, which refers to the plates all the Jaredite stories are written on as "which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."
Jews do aid work in Africa? I don't think so. Bringing them to Europe on the taxpayers dime doesn't count.
Also Mormons are altruistic.
>Those are the Urim and Thummim,
I know,
>If the plates were given to Smith for their historical significance
I meant within the history established by the BOM - the importance they had to folks like Laban and Nephi.
>Why not allow them to stand as powerful evidence for the veracity of Smith's claims?
Probably for the same reason we dont see burning bushes or people turned into salt pillars
Agreed on the South Park thing. I'm a non-mormon from North Mormoncountry, and their assessment was spot on. They're basically ideal models of what an American should be except for the horded unperishables, the fucking off to somewhere else in their late adolescence, their paying 10% of their income to the church, and all of the other trappings of their loony religion.
>A letter written by someone who wasn't a witness who imputed that that the other witnesses must have not seen them because of the experience of Martin Harris. Hardly a source that the other wittnesses did not see or handle it.
Granted, this is not a primary source, but according to Burnett, Harris said neither he nor the other witnesses physically saw the plates.
>Your Stephen Burneet letter states otherwise.
Burnett, like most members of the Church today, had been told that the witnesses signed the document. He was repeating what he had been told.
>I know
If you knew, why did you claim that Joseph mounted the seer stone--the stone which he placed in his hat to translate--into the Urim and Thummim breastplate?
>I meant within the history established by the BOM - the importance they had to folks like Laban and Nephi.
First off, Laban never saw the gold plates. His plates were the brass plates--supposedly the source for the Old Testament genealogy and passages that are duplicated in the Book of Mormon.
Secondly, why would the plates' having been significant to Nephi provide a compelling reason for them to pass through Joseph Smith's hands and then disappear into thin air? I don't understand the connection here.
Anyway, I'm done arguing for the night. If you really believe what you're saying, why did you post Chris Johnson's talk refuting the BoM? If you're just playing devil's advocate to keep the discussion going, then godspeed, user.
Ha ha. Good point.
>No, it's not a difference that matters in any way.
It kinda does given they conflict with the claims of the prophet and the people who handled them.
>Or we could just use the Mosiah 8:9, which refers to the plates all the Jaredite stories are written on as "which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."
Arent those the plates Mosiah took and then translated into the separate plates that would go on to be the BOM?
I can understand.
>It kinda does
Not really. If these plates were only seen by a handful of people, and we don't have any contradicting claims by anyone else, then the only claim we have is that it WAS pure gold. Nothing to the contrary. And we have several people saying this.
>Aren't those the plates Mosiah took and then translated into the separate plates that would go on to be the BOM
I've read the BOM twice, but I don't remember that happening, so I won't say either or. That still creates the same problems though. Gold is to soft to be used for this purpose, as it would crush itself, and would weigh an incredible amount.
Well, there's really no way to prove that they are, unless they start making insane predictions and doing superhero type stuff.
So, using "Mormonese" to explain it, I'd say that my "testimony" that "the church is true" isn't based off of anything specific about them. They are good people, though; I've been around and watched them long enough to believe that they are trying to do good things, in spite of all their shortcomings.
If I hadn't had the incredible experiences I've had in the temple, at this point I'm not sure what I'd say about prophets. My "testimony" on prophets is simply a willingness to accept them based off of the experiences that I had in the temple.
Does that make sense?
>Granted, this is not a primary source, but according to Burnett, Harris said neither he nor the other witnesses physically saw the plates.
Well thats just a claim by Harris who wasnt even present with the 8 witnesses.
>Burnett, like most members of the Church today, had been told that the witnesses signed the document. He was repeating what he had been told.
Well you will probably need a better source then.
>If you knew, why did you claim that Joseph mounted the seer stone--the stone which he placed in his hat to translate--into the Urim and Thummim breastplate?
Because thats one of the lesser known methods used (importanlty not the sole or major) I figured it would be interesting to bring up Smiths steampunk esq outfit.
>First off, Laban never saw the gold plates. His plates were the brass plates--supposedly the source for the Old Testament genealogy and passages that are duplicated in the Book of Mormon.
I was referring to the notion of plates in general as ways of transmiting information
> Joseph Smith's hands and then disappear into thin air? I don't understand the connection here.
Given the importance of Faith perphaps its because it would destroy the importance of that.
>Anyway, I'm done arguing for the night. If you really believe what you're saying, why did you post Chris Johnson's talk refuting the BoM? If you're just playing devil's advocate to keep the discussion going, then godspeed, user.
Yeah I was playing devils advocate, partly because it teaches you good skills and for the most part because whilst there are really good criticisms of the Mormons most people dont use them and rely on dishonest memey ones. What I was hoping to do was show otheres through our conversation that its not as clear cut as it seems and how people who arent gullible can still believe in it.
It's literally a freemasonic Mystery religion lite for the goiym
mormonism is just a limited hangout for freemasons with a bunch of CIA agents
degenerate trash
>we don't have any contradicting claims by anyone else
We do, by the man who translated them himself and had the most experience with them and in part the book of mormon when it describes their construction being from ore/
>That still creates the same problems though. Gold is to soft to be used for this purpose, as it would crush itself, and would weigh an incredible amount.
There were only 24 of those plates so not necessarily.
Yeah, that answer shows you certainly understant why people are Mormons
[spoiler]If I hadn't had the incredible experiences I've had in the temple, at this point I'm not sure what I'd say about prophets. My "testimony" on prophets is simply a willingness to accept them based off of the experiences that I had in the temple.Does that make sense?
Its does, I used to think a similar way until I experienced a cult triggering profound feelings in me and reasearched how those feelings can be brought about
[/spoiler]
I'm a former mormon from the south-eastern part of just north of North Mormon country.
I don't know what you experienced, so I can only speak for myself.
I understand the sentiment of "feelings" and "cult triggering" etc. Sounds like you try to be really skeptical and look for logical answers, not emotional ones. Good on ya.
For me, the experiences I had truly surpass my understanding. I'm educated. Getting a master's degree now at a top school. I've read books on psychology (Jung, Freud). Read textbooks on neuroscience just for fun. Even done some EEG. I do meditation. Done just about everything.
Nothing even touches the experiences that I had.
All I can say is that if I had to chose between dream and reality, between the conversation we're having right now and the experiences I had in the temple: this is the dream. That was reality.
There aren't any words to describe it further. I've tried, many a time. And it sticks with me every fricking day. It's just one of those things that I had to experience for myself.
> Leviticus
This meme needs to die.
> This entire post
> That flag
>The Bible is a wonderful book with great stories and elegant poetry
>great stories
>elegant poetry
look I'm christian but don't fucking bullshit people user. the bible is boring as fuck you read it to learn the word of GOD and teachings of Jesus not to have a great time in the Shakespearean jest.
> the bible is boring as fuck
The fuck are you on about? The (((old testament))) is exciting as shit. It's a full fledged creation myth followed by a literal war manual, than 2 or 3 books about Jews being sad because they suck.
Gospels are 3 (technically 4) love stories about a dead friend that loved you and was killed for shit reasons.
Acts and beyond are like the X-men in poem form and Revelations is one of the most Black Metal Shit ever.
you must read a lot of revelations because this is vague as shit. that's the one thing that piss me off the most about God, never a clear prophecy always vague. doesn't even mention the Americas or any of the nations or people of America. it my be true but its piss pour management of the people of God.
Mormons are pretty based desu
Kek, honestly that's just a by product of John. His proise even in his gospel is esoteric as fuck. He is the reason we have a canonical and a synoptic
If you have difficulties w/ revelations, read multiple translations. I fucking hate ESV, but it reads easier than KJV. Don't bother with NIV, that's corrupt as shit. Than again, I am Catholic, so I am probably going to hell for recomending either of those, but easier than the fucking Vulgate, lol.
>And they go out of their way for years on end to the shittiest places on earth (usually africa) to build houses, water systems, farmlands, etc
Absolutely BASED, lad. Based.
Details on this
Wait, why would their preparedness ethic (the "hoarding of unperishables") be a bad thing?
I live in Central California and when a bunch of people got displaced because of the flooding it was almost exclusively Mormons taking people in and feeding them for weeks while the people waited to go back home.
My understanding is they are supposed to keep a modest food supply so they can help themselves and their neighbors in times of crisis. I don't see how this could possibly be a bad idea in a civilized society.
dude, it's the fucking expansion of the trilogy. Not as bad as the scientology fanfiction, but still trash.
>jews in space