Has this ever been "beat"?

Has this ever been "beat"?
Are there any arguments against this?

Evil is not quantifiable. It's merely the abscense of good.

Why do we believe that we have standing to comment on the motives of an omniscient being? Do insects have the capacity to understand why men behave as they do?

The absence of good isn't evil, evil is the opposite of good. If you think about it in terms of, say, vectors, good points in the opposite direction evil does, but the absence of direction is just a point at 0. It isn't good or bad, it just is or is not. Similar to how ugliness isn't the absence of beauty, but the opposite of beauty.

for free will to exist we must be able to defy goodness and therefore be evil, one could also argue that since good and evil are on a spectrum we are inhabiting the most good world that allows free will. don't even believe in god but these are easy to refute after your first 2 days in an entry evel philosophy course

A lot of it is strawman, so yes, I imagine it could easily be debunked.

All loving and evil are subjective terms

No it can't be beat.

God is a dick.

This is answered in the chart.

The wisest of men could never comprehend even the most foolish acts of God.

This. Also good is only an opinion there is no universal definition of "good"

The all loving God is a 20th century Catholic meme. The Christian iniquity says if you're not disciplined, don't obey the 10 commandants, and recognize Jesus's 2nd coming then you will burn in hell on Earth for all eternity

>Evil Exists
>No
>flowchart beaten

I happen to be an atheist, but this is asinine.

The definition of the words don't matter, the paradox still stays in tact no matter what you feel those terms mean

Read Romans 9. God has a righteous purpose for the evil that exists which this flow chart does not address. God tolerating evil for a good purpose while not doing evil Himself is very different then God not being good or "malevolent" in the Epicurus formulation.

What is evils purpose?

There is no such thing as good or evil. There is only experience.

Check mate.

One way to get out of the Diagram is to pretend that God is Perfect (not as in "that knife is perfectly cutting" but as in "He's perfection, nothing is better than Him in any way").

From there, it becomes necessary that God's many qualities don't contradict each others, or He wouldn't be perfect.

Therefore, God couldn't have created a perfect Universe without contradicting His own Unicity.

Boom, the "God is not all powerful" is debunked, because He cannot contradict Himself, like creating a stone too big for Him, hiding a fact from his Omniscience, or creating a perfect universe. He's bound by His own Omnipotence.

Does anyone even understand 'sin' in the biblical sense?

Really this is true with every religion from a society that's survived, but let's get into it.

A sin is an evil act, behavior you should avoid. But why?
>Because God said so
Wrong. God warned us of these sins, but it isn't just because he said so.
Take a look at the 10 Commandments, every last one of them is a rule required for society to function.
>Don't lie/cheat/steal/kill: This allows us to trust each other
>You must obey these laws: This ensures we're all playing by the same rules

the 10 Commandments are just the 10 steps needed to have a functional society, if you want me to detail any specific one let me know but I'd rather not do a detailed analysis on each individual commandment.

But what about other sins? Why is it wrong "to be gay"?
We'll, it isn't. The bible always explicitly states that it is wrong for to men to engage in sex. and why?
Even by today's standards anal sex is dangerous, how do you think it was during the biblical era when that was written?

A sin is an act that harms either yourself, another, or society as a whole.
To understand the hierarchy of sin:
>Society
>Others
>Yourself
so if it harms others, but benefits society it is not sinful, but if it benefits you and harms society it is sinful.

So why is there evil in the world?
Because we fail. We are imperfect. This isn't a matter of free-will, but a matter of nature.

Besides, if there was never any risk, would the reward be valuable to us?

Free will and evil are inseparable.

The Bible would disagree with you there lad

>REEE I HATE GOD HE MAKES MY LIFE SO HARD
Hard lives make tougher people, how you respond to it is free will.

to pass the butter.

by having faith
they teach about having faith
faith destroys every little logical dissection of Christianity. its the basis of it.

Christ did not die for the pure, he died to save sinners, he is the God of failures. And I mean this in a good way

God did not exterminate bad because bad is just lack of good
Also he wanted free will

Romans 9

I don't see how free will can exist to a being that omnipotent. The outcome of each of our decisions has been known since God created the universe. It's like writing a program to do something and saying "wow the program did that on its own" once it does what you created it for.

Some flaws with the argument.

This argument jumps immediately to the existence of evil without an objective justification for it. If evil exists objectively, then you have to demonstrate how, using only naturalism, you get evil. It is impossible, because you cannot derive how things ought to be from how things are (is/ought problem).

Because of that, morality can only be defined by fiat. That is, only by the decree of somebody since this cannot be the result of nature. To say that evil is objective implies that there is an objective setter of standards, either through the nature of the creative mind, or by the degree of the creative mind.

Either way, the existence of evil itself proves the existence of God, with the definition of evil being moving away from God.

Now, what about the argument itself? After all, if the argument is true, then the most you've done is prove that both God and morality must be logical absurdities.

Well, the problem with the argument comes at free will. Yes, it is true that God cannot create free will without evil, not because God is not all powerful, but because omnipotence does not include the logically absurd. God cannot, for example, create a round square. He cannot make the statement 1 + 1 = 3 be a true equation.

Free will requires the ability to act independently of God, making your own decisions. Evil can be defined as the non-ideal path, and good can be defined as following God's ideal path.

its not a paradox because "not preventing evil" does not objectively make God 'not good'

Knowledge does not equal determination. Just because God knows what actions we will take does not mean he makes those decisions. He simply knows how we will act and plans accordingly.

The chart doesn't mention the bible bucko.

Because god gave us free will
We were made in his image, not as slaves but as a free thinking spirit

What evil means on this chart?

Sickness? War? Famine?

Be specific faggot.

Does the bible actually make the argument that God is all good?

He seems pretty fucking petty and sadistic to me and pretty much every story in the bible is "l-look... just do what he says and no one gets hurt".

Sure, a God which is not purely good, but instead has maximal capacity for goodness, for evil, and everything else.

It does, by construction, as per the bible. It's one of many points that the bible's writers overlooked such that they wrote themselves into a corner.

Are there genuine atheists that still use this line of argument? I genuinely think that at this point the people making these posts are Christians trying to make atheists look naive.

There cant be one but not the other...without good evil cannot exist, without evil good cannot exist.

Balance of good and evil is a cycle.

No it isn't. Being omnipotent doesn't mean that god can do logically impossible things like make 2 + 2 = 5 or somehow make everyone be both good and have free will.

>Does the bible actually make the argument that God is all good?
In the old testament, god is taken to be 2/3 as evil as he is good. This was retconned in the new testament, where god is said several times to be all good. Indeed, this is one of the main points of contention between jesus and the jews.

Thats a line of bullshit to prevent the masses from usurping the king who was conveniently chosen by god.

Source?

If ure serious (and youre not)
Read plotinus

Study Job and Proverbs. God does good and bad things.

So in other words, he's not perfect?

You hit it right on the head. The logically impossible isn't a problem with God, but a problem with our definitions of things. When you use abstractions to create logically absurd outcomes, you might be able to make a nonsense statement like "round square" using those those words, but the application of said statements like your example of 2+2=5 is impossible.

Sure there can be. Just because star wars says it doesn't mean it's true.

see I explain evil, perhaps not using naturalism, but in a way I think you're asking for. If not lets talk about it.

>Free will
>World free of evil
Choose one

Why wouldn't an all powerful being, one that created our universe and the physics that rule it, be able to do that? Think about it abstractly

This argument only works for the omni-god.
All you have to do is believe in a god which is very powerful but not quite omnipotent and the problem is solved. For some reason which I will never understand, most Christians refuse to do this.

>The absence of heat isn't cold, cold is the opposite of heat. If you think about it in terms of, say, vectors, heat points in the opposite direction cold does, but the absence of direction is just a point at 0. It isn't hot or cold, it just is or is not. Similar to how ugliness isn't the absence of beauty, but the opposite of beauty

It literally does though, omnipotence would involve control over logic and reality warping if it's real omnipotence.

But yeah the chart is flawed as it aims to understand god from your relatively flawed perspective.
It's impossible to come up with an omnipotent being logically so you cannot expect god to be understood by logic as opposed to realisation.

Cold literally is the absence of heat though.
Or is that the argument you're making?

A thesis only exists with its antithesis
Without evil, there is no metric for good, just as without heat, there is no metric for the cold
t. Atheist

To shake things up, to break your shell and force you out of your comfort zone, to initiate change and growth, to exercise free will. It's why eating the apple was a bad idea. We were clearly not ready, you can see it with all the people complaining about le ebil

Who claims that though? Maybe Jesus was just defending his dad like most child abuse victims.

Because numbers are merely abstractions designed by humans and are only meaningful to humans. Yeah, you can write the statement "2 + 2 = 5" on a piece of paper, but the application of that is a contradiction. You cannot take 2 of one thing and 2 of the exact same thing and put them all in a mathematical basket and get 5 things. Contradictions cannot exist. It's a problem with human definitions, not with God.

did you recently add an user as a friend?

there is no such thing as evil, evil is subjective

this is false.
see if good and evil were subjective, then they would be arbitrary, but that is not the case. This means they do in fact exist.

No.

Sure, the argument in OP is based on the premise that these specific items (which are central to almost all christian faiths) are true by assumption. If you admit that it is not necessary that all those conditions are true, then the solution set is no longer valid, obviously.

I like how the image conveniently always forgets the part that all evil in the world of men comes from men, thus providing a reason why God shouldn't just come out of nowhere and BTFO evil people when he's already given good people the capacity to BTFO evil people on their own. The whole "DURR why is there evil if God is good?" argument just smacks of the same lazy entitlement that spoiled children use whenever their parents don't buy them nice toys.

yes, good and evil are arbitrary and subjective. if there were no (human) beings, there would be no concept of good or evil. the existence of good or evil is contingent or the existence of sentient beings, thus it is subjective. there is no list of objectively good or evil things floating around in the universe in between subatomic particles

>God grants humans free will
>Humans create evil
>Humans can only achieve true happiness via voluntarily finding God
Problem with Evil gets BTFO

If God is good and evil exists outside of good, then evil exists outside of God, and God is not all powerful.

That's a terrible comparison since heat isn't a vector quantity and it isn't of the level of abstraction as concepts as good/bad. You failed.

perhaps you need to define sentient beings, but good and evil even exist among wolves.
really any social organisms.

For wolves, a wolf who acts against the pack is 'sinning' as it is endangering the rest of the pack.

I don't think you even read what I wrote.

Is the deceiving serpent in the Garden of Eden not evil or did God not create it?

According to the bible there is.

Your definition of evil just fleshed out my simplicity of it. Ultimately, God does lay out a plan for humans. We're free to not follow that plan, but God explained that this is the best way to carry out our lives, including how we should design our societies. We simply fail miserably to live up to those standards.

I do not think this is a mark against God at all, because free will is what gives God's creations meaning. It is what gives good and evil their meanings, and so long as there is good in the world, it will always be worth it. Evil is not a negation, but an absence, a tendency to have less of God in our lives and, by our nature, become more animistic, less rational.

Interestingly, atheists seem to think it is the other way around, but learning always surrounds religious centers all throughout history, and when religion fades from our hearts, our instincts rip that society to shreds. See the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and now Christians are facing the same harm.

While obviously the polytheistic religions are not true at a fundamental level, the fact is that they hone in on those same values given to us by God through the first civilized humans. At least, that's how I interpret it.

I don't think you understand the meaning of subjective. something being good for the wolves or for the pack is the operative meaning of subjecitve

the bible is 2000 year old desert fan fiction, why does it matter what it says?

wasnt man created in god's image?
isnt god evil because he allows the evil to happen?

Look it's cool that you're almost done with physics 1 and learned what a vector quantity is, but please stop being retarded. Go study for your exams.

If God forced someone to not act evil, that removes free-will. But not stopping them doesn't mean that God isn't all powerful.

>good for the wolves
>or for the pack
come on user, your bait is nigger tier

Such a stupid argument, yeah lets make a universe where nothing ever happens and its just a bunch of people doing nothing at all cause I dont want to make it possible for bad things to happen. Thatll be a super interesting place for life to exist

>then why is there evil?
Because of free will.

can you give me one expample of something that is objectively evil?

God is a very difficult topic since he's way beyond our understanding, but Good and Evil are just truths of reality.

In my description it's truths of human interaction, but that's the reality of human interaction.

God created Satan, whom He allowed to do evil through a rebellion. The serpent was just a snake possessed by Satan.

Lying.

The entire Bible isn't true.
New Testament is pretty spot on, but the Old Testament (escpecially Genesis) has been dilluted through oral tradition or just history that had nothing to do with God (the Israelites defeating the Canaanites).

I should start my own sect of Christianity.

How do you know that lying is objectively evil?

It's not that straight forward. God is all of the universe, everywhere and everything. Contains all information and all energy. Evil and good exist because nothing would make any sense if they didn't, the universe would collapse.

You are misunderstanding the meaning of "all powerful" in respect to God.

The problem is you're thinking of God like a man in the sky watching over everyone and that's not what he is.

He is all powerful because he is the structure of the universe, it's a multidimensional shape, all of time exists at once, the past and the future all happen at the same folded perpendicular to eachother and it cannot exist any other way.

Every part of the universe creates and supports all of the rest of the universe. Except niggers.

God is not some cosmic president constantly deciding what happens and when. He is not sentient across his whole being, not in the conventional sense anyway. He is sentient in pockets of his being, through us and all the living things he manifests. He isn't finished creating. He has only just begun creating. We are the agents of his creation and we will expand across the empty reaches of space, illuminating the void with sentient life, expanding His awareness.

Evil is predetermined because human nature is predetermined so in a limited spectrum of activities you decide to either surrender to god or independently try to enjoy the body you are given right now.

Latter leads to suffering and is considered evil according to severity of act.

liars cannot be trusted
without trust society collapses

If God doesn't exist, evil is subjective and there is no problem of evil Just by the mere fact that you believe there is a problem of evil, you have admitted God's existence. Morality can only be objective with a God to define what is good and evil.

But to answer the question, the world is imperfect, therefore it will have some evil. Is it immoral to create something that is imperfect? According to God it is not, since God cannot sin, which means it is not immoral to make something imperfect. Therefore no problem of evil exists.

>god

disgusting religion cucks

> Look at me I'm so smart it's cool that I don't care about things HAHAHA I'm so cynical

... That doesn't make it objectively evil?

I am Christian btw.

Another thing I believe is that because all moments exist at once, jesus is still on the cross suffering. The pain from every sin you commit contributes to Jesus'es suffering on the cross, otherwise it would perpetually exist in yourself instead of being in God. So God feels the pain of your sins and that's what hell is, Gods pain. It is both you and not you. When you die all of your life still exists and the sum of your life is your eternal afterlife because it is all still there and always will be.

For example. psalms 37:9 or romans 2:8-12.
True only for the old testament. Retconned starting with jesus.

I'm not sure why the Ameritards in this thread have such a huge problem with the idea of ob/subjectivity

american education lul

>Could God have created a universe with free-will but without evil
No. Not because he isnt all powerful but because thats literally a contradiction. Its like asking "can God make a circle a square at the same time?" No. Because then it ceases being a circle.
This chart is so farcical

Your only correct answer to why anything is objectively wrong is "Because God says it is."

You cannot get objective morals without God.