Wait so theirs actually people on this board that actually still think the Romans and Classical Greeks are the same...

Wait so theirs actually people on this board that actually still think the Romans and Classical Greeks are the same race as the modern Italians and Greeks?
JUST

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=j-a43gQQiRI
nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=0
pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.abstract
nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/full/ncomms1701.html
youtu.be/5UNwjB-k6aI
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3074731
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Not greeks, but why not Romans?

raped en masse by visigoths

shit, meant the lombards

People who make "you're not white" threads are usually of some sort of Semitic ethnicity.

proof?

sage

>being subjugated by Semites and Turks and hundreds of thousands of foreign slaves among your population doesn't change your racial makeup
The fuckin mental acrobatics

yeah and it's pretty hilarious when all these turkroach rapebabbys get all pissy and passive-aggressive about it

it's fugn easy to tell if you're white and if you find yourself feeling the need to cuckpedal into history in order to explain how "whites" """used to have""" pubichair-tier beards and were manlets, you're probably a damage controlling shitskin

>raped en masse

We have an actual region called "Lombardia" guess because lombards used to stay and live here.

implying anyone ever gave a fuck about being in the "white club" or not
natsoc apes may care, the rest of us don't give a fuck what you bitches think, it's all about the lolz

>this pic again

WHITE PEOPLE
WUZ
KANGS

Damn straight, WE WUZ KANGS FRATER

> pfff we don't care

AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY LMAO

get back to cleaning the floors, subhuman

WE WUZ EMPRAZ N SHIT

i believe northern italians are the closest guys ethnically to ancient greeks.
modern greeks have no relation to ancient ones whatsoever

Visigoths, langobards, saracens in the south.

Diasporafags kys nobody likes you.

> eyo we wuz emperors niga

you realize how different those two faces are from one another?

you nordicists truly are dumber than niggers

I have italian ancestry and i look like the guys in the statues. You guys are so retarded it's embarassing.

Ohh boy here we go again
>WE WUZ ROMANZ AND SHIEET

Appearance of some Roman emperors according to Suetonius and his "The Twelve Caesars"

Julius Caesar:
"He is said to have been tall of stature with a fair complexion, shapely limbs, a somewhat full face, and keen black eyes;..."

Octavian Augustus:
"He had clear, bright eyes, in which he liked to have it thought that there was a kind of divine power, and it greatly pleased him, whenever he looked keenly at anyone, if he let his face fall as if before the radiance of the sun; but in his old age he could not see very well with his left eye. His teeth were wide apart, small, and ill-kept; his hair was slightly curly and inclining to golden; his eyebrows met. His ears were of moderate size, and his nose projected a little at the top and then bent slightly inward. His complexion was between dark and fair."

Nero:
"He was about the average height, his body marked with spots and malodorous, his hair light blond, his features regular rather than attractive, his eyes blue and somewhat weak, his neck over thick, his belly prominent, and his legs very slender..."

Commodus, according to Herodian:
"At this time he was in the prime of youth, striking in appearance, with a well-developed body and a face that was handsome without being pretty. His commanding eyes flashed like lightning; his hair, naturally blond and curly, gleamed in the sunlight as if it were on fire; some thought that he sprinkled his hair with gold dust before appearing in public, while others saw in it something divine, saying that a heavenly light shone round his head. To add to his beauty, the first down was just beginning to appear on his cheeks."

Ok, now post all the other ones.

tldr
ancient romans specially early on looked like the average europeans of today.

>blue eyes and blonde hair were so rare in Rome, that people thought it implied divine power or someone put gold dust onto their hair

I hope this is what you meant to prove.

Character limit
Cont.

Tiberius:
"LXVIII. He was large and strong of frame, and of a stature above the average; broad of shoulders and chest; well proportioned and symmetrical from head to foot. His left hand was the more nimble and stronger, and its joints were so powerful that he could bore through a fresh, sound apple with his finger, and break the head of a boy, or even a young man, with a fillip. He was of fair complexion and wore his hair rather long at the back, so much so as even to cover the nape of his neck; which was apparently a family trait. His face was handsome, but would break out on a sudden with many pimples. His eyes were unusually large and, strange to say, had the power of seeing even at night and in the dark, but only for a short time when first opened after sleep; presently they grew dim-sighted again."

Caligula:
"L. He was very tall and extremely pale, with an unshapely body, but very-thin neck and legs. His eyes and temples were hollow, his forehead broad and grim, his hair thin and entirely gone on the top of his head, though his body was hairy. Because of this to look upon him from a higher place as he passed by, or for any reason whatever to mention a goat, was treated as a capital offence. While his face was naturally forbidding and ugly.."

Claudius:
"XXX Either standing or sitting, but especially when he lay asleep, he had a majestic and graceful appearance; for he was tall, but not slender. His gray locks became him well, and he had a full neck. But his knees were feeble, and failed him in walking, so that his gait was ungainly, both when he assumed state, and when he was taking diversion."

>ancient romans specially early on looked like the average europeans of today.

ancient romans specially early on looked like the average Italians of today.

stop hogging at other people's history you goddamn snownigger

Calm down turkroach diaspora.
I'm portunigger, not snownigger.

Yes, when they first encountered the teutons they remarked on their hair, eye, and skin colour being might lighter than theirs

>Beta State of Iraq and the Levant loses their drone
youtube.com/watch?v=j-a43gQQiRI

much lighter*

But we were

>being this deluded

Sometimes I cant understand if poltards are trolling or really out of touch with reality.

This doesn't tell us anything because the Claudian dynasty was familial. You've cherry picked a single family, and are trying to say Romans in general all looked like this one single family.

fastforward to sicily being conquered by islam

Are you the same Aussie that we gang raped in mass in the last thread?

Now, some genetic evidence for your lies

>In 2008, Dutch geneticists determined that Italy is one of the last two remaining genetic islands in Europe (the other being Finland.) This is due in part to the presence of the Alpine mountain chain which, over the centuries, has prevented large migration flows aimed at colonizing the Italian lands.
nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=0

>A 2013 study by Peristera Paschou et al. confirms that the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a strong barrier to gene flow through geographic isolation following initial settlements
pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.abstract

nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/full/ncomms1701.html
This last one actually proves how Italians and Sardinians are actually the same as they were during Otzi times

So, go back to your cave, mongrel

>This is the average Mediterranean face
Looks exactly the same as the statues of Antiquity
Saged thread

They are the same race, but unfortunately after so many years of Turkish etc. conquest the gene pool was changed a bit.

Still North Italians are very White. Actually a quite big difference between North and South Italians. Though it was just a meme before I went to Italy.

South Italians and Greeks are still White of course.

Just cuck my shit up senpai youtu.be/5UNwjB-k6aI

how many of these civilizations live in the scandinavian climate? It's the same reason that genetically identical humans weren't building civilizations during the last glacial period,

>a shitty ms paint drawing disproves this
The nose isn't the same but the rest of the features are very similar

My family is spanish/italian Argies and my sister is married to an Irish and Im engaged to a French of Belgian ancestry, when our families get together you would assume we are a homogeneous group of tourists from the UK or something, southern Europeans dont look as different from northern Europeans as Sup Forums believes

Why?What correlation islam invasion of Sicily has with "north Italians are like the ancient Greeks" you damn leaf?

Real thing I'm wondering is; what's the difference between Turks and Greeks?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3074731

>Statistical techniques for displaying the geographical distribution of many genes in few synthetic images have been used to represent the various patterns of gene frequencies in Europe and in the world (Menozzi et al. 1978; Piazza et al. 1981 a). It has also been shown that such synthetic displays are particularly useful in detecting clines of genetic differentiation associated with movements of populations like those accompanying the Neolithic expansion of farmers from the Near East or, in more recent times, the putative diffusion of Indo-European-speaking populations (Ammerman & Cavalli-Sforza, 1984; Gimbutas, 1973). In this paper we use the same combination of statistical and graphical techniques to study the genetic structure of Italy, a European country whose unity of people and cultures was quite a recent event. The possibility of studying genetic differentiation in a small geographical area is tested and trends of genetic differences are tentatively interpreted in terms of historic and linguistic knowledge. The few demographic pieces of information taken from historical sources and compared with linguistic records support the hypothesis that the genetic structure of Italy still reflects the ethnic stratification of pre-Roman times.


So yeah, ancient romans were just like the average european, can this fucking shitfest stop now?

muslim invasion means they're not quite greek anymore

Yes keep fighting among yourselves goyims. *laughs in sheckel*

>I think found out who made this thread

The northern african admixture or middle east one is >2.8% in individuals in which is found in others its not even located
Not enough to change the gene pool

The fact is southern italians were always darker than others, even though fair hair and skin was still present

Southern Italians are Greeks and always were

I don't have a dog in the fight. I am just saying that you gave us examples only from a single family in the Claudian era (with the exception of Augustus himself, as Tiberius was not Augustus' biological son) which isn't going to tell us anything about the Roman population writ large, because a single Patrician family is not an adequate sample for anything.

Their passport.

Tbh I wasn't even cherrypicking, literally copypasted that from the same source from some total war forum.

Depends?
Some are without a doubt mind you
But there were other races in Sicily before the arrival of the greeks, same thing in southern Italy

Colonialism during those times was asking gently or in exchange for gifts for a piece of land to build

In Sardinia instead there were the Phoenicians but they were kicked out, then came the Romans and they assimilated during the fall of the roman empire
In Barbagia, a part of Sardinia that the Romans did not conquer, the people are 100% isolated
That came with good things and bad things
Incest is a one of the bad things, but they also are one of the blue zones of the world

well sicilians are darker than greeks, was there another kind of people that the greeks interbred with when they settled the area?

The greeks got their language from indo-european invaders who were much fairer (and taller) than the indigenous mediterraneans, which is also why Achilles was blonde and his son was a redhead among others.
However, that really doesn't fucking matter so who cares?

If anybody wants to do some light reading on it I suggest the illustrated odyssey with a foreword from Jacquetta Hawkes, it gives a nice historical and ethnical background to those times.

Don't be upset, nigger.

Yes there were other populations
The Elimi, the Sicani and the Siculi

This, a lot of indo european input in greece, and not just from one migration, but two big ones.

Doesn't mean they wuz aryans n shieet obviously but they do have a considerable indo european heritage, and it explains why SOME greeks do look pretty damn white while some look pretty turka durka.

Southern europe just isn't as homogenous as northern europe, different family lines have different genetics.

Much of it has mellowed out by now, some island populations aside you won't find many blondes in greece.

Oh god one of these threads again.

KIKES BTFO

>taking the illiad and the odyssey as historical and biological sources
TOP FUCKING KEK
Might as well talk about black-haired Alexander then?

>since I found a handful of Greeks who were blonde, it must mean all Greeks were blonde
>proofs, lol? Just read this illustrated book I cherrypicked

you must have serious inferiority complexes to believe such nonsense

>guy from 1944 about genetics
kek

>>taking the illiad and the odyssey as historical and biological sources
>implying I did that
You're a stupid nigger, learn to read and stop being so butthurt.

>Might as well talk about black-haired Alexander then?
Who cares about Alexander? We know about the migration back then and that the time, names and locations from the Illiad coincide with the names and strongholds of the people who became the overlords of the mediterraneans in Greece back then, much of it isn't something Homer could have known since he wrote about those events hundreds of years later.

Plus, archeological evidence proves it too and so does your language.
Did you stupid seminigger really think you suddenly got an indo-european language on your own without any indo-europeans coming to Greece?
Dumb fuck.

Instead of getting butthurt about something that is of no importance in a thread and writing in allcaps like an autist, spend your time with better things than saving images about studies from the 40s

>>since I found a handful of Greeks who were blonde, it must mean all Greeks were blonde
Incorrect, also not even close to anything I said.

>you must have serious inferiority complexes
>the irony

Pompeii happened over a thousand years later you dumb fuck. The indo-european invasion of Greece was much, much earlier.
>hurr durr I don't know how history works and think all of antiquity happened within a hundred years.
Unironically kill yourself.

Greeks were always Greeks, every single scientific investigation has confirmed this.

Snowniggers can't stand the fact that the people who invented their culture, mathematics, science, philosophy, astronomy, politics, were considerably different from them in looks. This is the only thing that has ever driven this debate. If there exists a superior race, it certainly isn't the nordic one.

>Greeks were always Greeks,
>monolothic island culture in the busiest sea of antiquity
Sure thing, boyo.

> every single scientific investigation has confirmed this.
Ah, I get it, you're 12 years old and this is your first time in the internet.

>Snowniggers can't stand the fact that the people who invented their culture, mathematics, science, philosophy, astronomy, politics, were considerably different from them in looks.
>greeks were the first civilization
>ancient persia didn't exist
>asia was empty
>india was also vacant
Ignorant turk

The thing I don't understand about this debate is what are people referring to when they say "Roman"? Just the citizens of the city itself in the royal/early republican era? Patricians only? Does it include the Socii? Does it include the larger empire during and throughout the imperial era?

I mean, they all weren't one ethnic group. Even the Socii were not one ethnic group. Some of the Sociale came from Greece originally, some from Gallic tribes... hell, the Etruscans might have been Phoenician in origin.

It just strikes me as historically clumsy to speak of "Roman" as a singular ethnic group without being more specific about what one means.

this is now a "no homo " thread.

Yeah but Rome isn't in the South
If anything Romans still Romans

>just mirin bruh, nohomo

Why wouldn't they?
>when someone who knows fuck all about history or genetics decides to shit on someone else's country
That's not even a Greek.

We usually speak of the term Romans to indicate all of the Italian Peninsula
It's a false dichotomy, but it's just a way to indicate every anchient Italians
If you read the thread I made a point on how Italians according to genetic thanks to the mediterranean and the alps are same as they were in anchient time, darker people always existed as well as fairer ones
It's the European diversity, it should be celebrated, instead reeeeee like retards, sigh
Even Otzy the mummy is very similar to us, actually more to sardinians than us italians but you get my point

Guy on the right looks like he is Israeli.

>says that genetic studies from 1944 are not valid
>tries to use the fucking illiad
seiously, is this bait?

>>being subjugated by Semites and Turks and hundreds of thousands of foreign slaves among your population doesn't change your racial makeup
Dumb nigger, would you like to explain your logic? Do you even fucking realise why the "le rape baby meme xdd" is absolutely fucking retarded? Jesus Christ, not even to mention how that was a terrible crime back then, do you really think that medieval Greece is on the same level on modern-day Sweden? Imagine if someone raped your daughter, would you fucking keep the child that gets born, if it does get born? Especially if it was, against all odds, an actual ottoman turk that raped your daughter instead of a local muslim convert?
It may not be Serbia that is shat on here, but I know that fucktards who think that Greeks are turkish rape babies, they probably think the same for us.

I never used the illiad as proof of any kind, there are much better things than that, I just explained how the things in the Illiad came about and why the things there are the way they are in there.

Also, are you literally unable to read and understand simple english sentences?

>which is also why Achilles was blonde and his son was a redhead among others
remind me, where exactly was Achilles' appearance described, you retarded snownigger

Go get some education Hans, you are absolutely embarrassing. All evidence points to the fact that Greeks of then looked the same as Greeks from now.

>Skulls from archaeological excavations: Same as modern Greek skulls
>Frescoes in Pompeii and Asia Minor: almost all Swarthy
>Fayum Mummy portraits (most of them are Greek): almost all Swarthy
>Byzantine mosaics: almost all Swarthy

Pic related

>It is clear that those depicted are of mainly Greek origin. The name of some of those portrayed are known from inscriptions, they are predominantly Greek.

Are you fucking retarded?
Achilles was blonde because the indo-europeans who invaded Greece and gave you your language were blonder than the mediterraneans, they were not blonder thant he mediterraneans because Achilles was blonde and his son was a redhead.
You dumb fucking nigger literally took what I presented as a possible result and acted like I used it as the initial proof.
What the fuck is wrong with you?

>Go get some education Hans
Come back when you've looked up menoan times and the times of the vesuvian outbreak you genius, you're about 1400 years late.

I agree. I think it's silly and divisive. And the debate always happens in the form of a loose, vague notion of what "Roman" was too. A Roman citizen in 500 BC would have a very different definition of what constitutes a "Roman" than a Roman in 200 AD. The natural consequence of discussing a civilization that spanned a thousand years, made expansive territorial acquisitions, and reformed and updated its definition of citizenship countless times over the process.

Suffice to say, I do not doubt that the Romans of today are the genetic inheritors of the Romans of yesteryear, I just struggle to understand what Sup Forums is referring to when they say "Roman". If we give it your definition, of the Italian peninsula only, sure, that would definitely have been an adequate definition of "Roman" in a certain era (after the Social War and Lex Plautia Papiria) but again, Rome spanned a millennium and evolved in numerous ways over the course of its lifespan. A Spaniard in 400 AD would consider himself a Roman. A Spaniard in 400 BC would not. See my point?

also
>discredits one source for no valid reason other than it is from 1944, ignores source from 1989, willfully believes sources from the 19th century that support his agenda
the insolence of this nigger

>Idealized busts = real life
The retardation and insecurity of this board has reached its apex

Also the turkish subjugated the greeks an they largely didnt have a policy for mixing, once the population exchange happened all the turk muslims left.

just stop posting

>>Skulls from archaeological excavations: Same as modern Greek skulls
Also, wrong.

>Fayum Mummy portraits
>They date to the Roman period, from the late 1st century BC or the early 1st century AD onwards.
Also more than a thousand years late
>Byzantine mosaics
Are you fucking serious?
That's over 2000 years later.

Jesus fucking Christ, Debtikos, move back home.

>Hurr durr i gefz my history lessons from my imagination and second hand accounts spouted by other insecure retards.
FTFY

>says that achilles was blonde
>the only things that confirm this are the illiad and his delusions
keep on hoping hassan

>We wuz romans n shiez!

>Anecdotal "evidence" from modern times means anything.
How desperate are you to force that story into this?

This is what PASOK socialism did to the people of my country. KYS FAGGOT!

Stop crying, bitchboy.

>ignores source from 1989
Given where exactly?
Most of your posts have been short misrepresentations of mine which you then tried to prove wrong with silly quips.
Here's a tip: If you want to win a debate, try to actually argue against what the other guy is saying instead of making shit up so you can win in your fantasyworld.

Achilles probably was blonde as he was part of the aristocracy of the indo-germanic conquerors of Greece during that time, but even if he wasn't he was still just an example of a possible outcome.

Why do you only argue against a single example (with zero proof except "b-b-but it's just the Illiad!") instead of arguing against my actual points?
Oh yeah, because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Look at this picture CAREFULLY this time Hassan. I know Muslims are heavily inbred and have low IQs but this is just too much.

>2 eyes
>1 nose
>1 mouth
>2 ears
>Hair

Yeah man the similarities are astonishing, you totally wuz kang

>Why do you only argue against a single example (with zero proof except "b-b-but it's just the Illiad!") instead of arguing against my actual points?
you don't make a point, unless for snowniggers "i assume" is a point

You haven't proven anything you retard what conversation are you reading,
you're spouting unproven nonsense.
>SHIEET ACHILLES WAS BLONDE NOT TO MENTION THAT HE PROBABLY WASNT EVEN REAL WE WUZ ANCIENT GREEK ARYANS AND SHIIEET

>Indo-Germanic conquerors of the region
KEK this is for sure some WE WUZ KANGZ shit unbelievably retarded are
you talking about the Mycenae? Spartans?

>ACHILLES WAS GERMANIC REEEEE

FYROM-tier attempts to ninja Ancient Greek figures and history. Congrats.

As for you OP, here's a pic of a Greek friend. 95% ancient Hellenic. Sage

You realize that you're a literal turk rapebaby, right?
Also
>40 skulls
>from a people from hundreds of islands
>of which the majority were meds
You fucking wot nigga?
I already said before that while the indo-european language remained, much of the genes have mellowed out, plus, 40 skulls mean fuck all.

>you don't make a point
We have quite a solid grasp on the broader strokes of history back then, I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you got an indo-european language without any indo-europeans coming to your country.

>focussing on that like the greek seminigger instead of the actual points I made
Once again, Achilles was an example, a valid example and what makes you think he wasn't real?
Granted, there was a ton of mythology around him but we have old tablets from the time of the great war back then with the names of many tribal leaders who contributed ships (which later became Homer's heroes) mentioned.
We also have their homes which had become desolate and unimportant during Homer's times described in ways which he could have never known about if they wouldn't have lived on in oral traditions, places which had locations that were rural in his time but yielded "castles" (overhyped forts, really) from mycenean (I think I said minoan when I should have said late minoan or mycenean before) times.

>KEK this is for sure some WE WUZ KANGZ shit unbelievably retarded are
Dude, that's something pretty different. Read through the entire thread.

>you talking about the Mycenae? Spartans?
That's over 1000 years later.

Why do you dumb fucks not realize how fuckinG LONG antiquity lasted?

t. classical philologist

Archeological evidence, his description, the time that played around it and so on points to that, yes.

Many of the things described in Homer's Illiad or Oddyssey are not things he understood (as they had vanished during his time when the old civilization fell and they lost their old linear-B writing system), others were replaced, however he still describes the halls he could have never known, the tools and items, the armour he could have never seen very detailed and the archeological remains found mycenean times (like the boar tusk helmet) show that he wasn't just making dumb shit up but talking about things from hundreds of years ago.