How tf is taxation theft?

>it isn't theft to pay a company regularly a subscription fee for their services
>it isn't unfair if a company charges different customers different subscription fees depending on the customers
>it isn't unfair if the company does whatever they want with their profit, including if they choose to provide their services free to some customers
So how is it unfair that the government demands a certain "subscription fee" for the services they provide such as roads and law enforcement? When you pay taxes you aren't paying for the well being of other people but are paying back the government what you owe for using their services.

Because we have a choice

You don't go to jail if you choose not to pay for cable tv.

You do have a choice though. You choose to the live in the United States when you always have the option to move somewhere that requires different compensation for their services.

>Because we have a choice
Please choose to live somewhere else, we need people who contribute not freeloaders

>You don't go to jail if you choose not to pay for cable tv.
None of the Fortune 500 companies who dodge their corporate tax go to jail either

No but you do get your cable TV taken away from you and can be charged a fine as punishment. When you choose not to pay the government for their services the only way can really stop providing their services to you is by putting you in jail, plus it is punishment.

Saying taxation is theft is nothing but whining. Go off the grid and let's see how long you last in a lifestyle without taxes.

When you realize that government has a monopoly on violence you will realize how taxation is theft.

They don't have a monopoly on violence. Monopoly implies that a single government is in charge of all of the violence which is untrue. There are hundreds of countries in the world that all handle law enforcement differently and you can choose to live in whichever one you prefer.

>Trogdor the Burninator
muh_nigga.jpg

Fucking leaf.

Taxation is theft, but some taxation is justified.

One example is a National Defense budget. There have been and will always be other nations that wish to conquer until there is only one nation left, and it makes sense to budget for a standing army.

Those who do not like the taxes are free to exile themselves. They deserve none of the benefits.

cucktacular

because the government invariably pisses away tax revenue in an unfair manner because it's impossible to redistribute tax resources evenly

Imagine $100k comes in designated for road repair. The roads that get repaired will be chosen based off how traveled they are, etc. So if you live on a side street you may never see a penny back. Now apply this to every category tax revenue is spent on and you realize you are getting robbed

>theft is justified
nope

You're free to leave in Exile.

Precisely. If you want infrastructure to be fair it needs to be privatized - meaning it can be bought or sold and is maintained by a private entity. They could then easily toll people for the infrastructure's usage, meaning only those using that infrastructure pays for it. That also means that companies can compete and consumers can choose more affordable options. No competition = government glut and overspending and pissing away our money.

I know a full-blown libertarian. He's so open-minded his brain has fallen out since he cannot recognize how some ideologies look great on paper and fail pragmatically.

His argument is that if the whole world was a street and a dozen people live on it. 11 out of the 12 have kids. Those 11 decide it is a good idea to build a playground for their kids. They believe it is better for the society they live in and want the playground but they fall just short of funding. So they go to the last guy's house who has no kids and tell him to cough up the money. The guy, let's call him Jeff, doesn't want to spend money on a fucking playground since he has no kids and tells them to fuck off. They decide if Jeff doesn't pay they kick his door in and take the money.

That is taxation. Good for the society, but will hurt people that have different interests than the state.

No one ever promised that the money would go back directly to you. When you pay netflix for your subscription it isn't theft if they choose to use it on some other part of their company instead of spending it improving their website where you see your money being used. Also since you still do get some services (law enforcement, firefighters etc) anywhere it cannot by definition be theft but maybe just a rip off.

how do I "opt out" of government? Is it the same as cancelling my netflix service? really would like to know

Your Netflix analogy is stupid. You don't pay Netflix as an investment in the company, you pay for a service, which they provide to you.

Fucking leaf.

A rip off without a choice to opt out is by definition theft.

This is a faulty example since in this example Jeff doesn't get anything in return for his money while every single person gets roads, police, schools etc be provided to them for the government which everyone uses.

name a country that is less socialist than the USA. I'll wait

By moving out from your country. No one forces you to pay for netflix and no one forces you to live in America
And why should paying taxes be an investment in the country instead of paying back for all of the government services you used?

I love these threads
You get to read autistic political theory from borderline illiterate high schoolers.

>The roads are crumbling
>Police come an hour after you call them, basically to mop up
>How are those state-run schools working out for you?

I don't think you understand the american tax system. They tax oversees income if you move there and the cost of the forms to denounce your citizenship is like 2k and they won't give it to you just because you don't want to pay taxes.

You always have a choice. Living in your country is a choice and you can chose a country that has different taxes anytime. So you are choosing to get ripped off.

>name a country that is less socialist than the USA. I'll wait

somalia

bye bye ancucks

I stay in good health and use minimal resources. Why should I pay for your fat aunt's diabeetus?

...

read

>muh taxes are theft
>muh legislation enacted by a monopoly on force is legitimate if I oppose it but the majority passes it.
>muh representative consents for me even I don't because muh virtual democracy.

How do lolbertarians endure this cognitive dissonance?

who cares? you are still getting a service, and that costs money which you need to pay through taxes. If you choose a shitty service that doesn't mean you can just not pay for it.
Just become a citizen of a different country. Companies are allowed to charge you for leaving them (eg banks) since it is an inconvenience for them.
You aren't paying for your fat aunts diabetes. You are paying back what you owe the government for using their services. What the government does with their profit is their business.

>omg when I pay apple for music they use that money for developing new iphones which I don't use instead of improving the music app! this is theft!

that would be your arguement

It's not theft, but extortion.

Correct. But many forms of extortion are legal and not necessarily wrong.

>You do have a choice though.

Not at all.

Have you ever signed a contract with your government?

No?

To be fair for all: if you pay taxes, you get services. If you don't, they take them away (but you're still able to do business with other private citizens).

Government owns all the money, they just let us use it.

b t f o Objecticucks

You do. When you move to a country or if you are born in the country and chose to stay there after becoming a legal adult you must accept their terms and conditions.

Oh they do? So if they came and took your entire life savings, they wouldn't be committing any crime?

I initially chose netfix whereas I did not choose where I was born. It's a reality of life but that doesn't make it the right. If your morals condone violence then it's ok but if you don't condone the enacting of violence then you can't condone taxation.

>if you pay taxes, you get services. If you don't, they take them away
What, are you just going to fence off every road, subway and public park?

Well, we aren't arguing about legality because, by definition, the laws by the state are "legal". I would disagree that extortion can be moral. Maybe necessary for a functioning state, but still immoral

You have no choice in where you're born. Hence, the state has no moral right to put their governance over you.

Saying, well, you can move! But why? You were born there, without choice. You can tell the government to move with equal standing.

Council rates aren't taxes.

That means private ownership is not a thing but we have private ownership over our money, you stupid fucking Commie.

If you are born and your parents pay rent for their house and then you choose to live in the same place after they die that still means you have to pay rent for it too. You can't choose where you are born but you can choose where you live.

Ok but the point of this thread is that taxes are not theft.

Haha you're talking to a Neoliberal here kiddo, I actually read factual memes.

Why isn't there a libertarian general? I have so many questions.

see

g2g for an hour will continue debating when i get back

I don't think so. What if the playground was a grade school? Jeff doesn't have kids.

That is besides the point. The point is that the money the government collects is used on things you don't want. The libertarian says they should have the option to just not pay taxes and get no benefits.

This guy even believes that corporations will donate the roads/infrastructure/whatever else if there is no government.

I'm agreeing with you but your argument against his argument is weak af.

Taxation isn't theft, because it's armed robbery.

Every single person uses some form of government services, such as roads, the ability to be able to legally represent yourself, protection etc. You can't just choose to opt out of roads and law protection. So you are given a service for which you must pay. If you don't use a lot of features in the package you pay for thats your mistake not the companies.

Do you actually believe these things? You think people should maximize utilization of government resources? You're for bigger government? How do you think that would end up? Do you even know what's going on in Venezuela right now?

I am for bigger governments but that is irrelevant to this thread. This thread argues that taxation is not theft.

Because the social contract is a is a despotic fantasy perpetrated by your overlords; unlike a private business, the state has absolutely no voluntary individual compliance. The very best proof of it is how it responds in violent ways to "being fired", aka secession.

I think those are called toll booth, and there's nothing stopping you from making tax payers have unlimited access vs everyone else needing to pay a useage fee unless they sign up. You know, like every other business open to the public does?

>You have no choice in where you're born. Hence, the state has no moral right to put their governance over you.
But the state cannot tax you nor throw you in prison until you're an adult. It can only give out light punishments for harming its citizens.
And council rates are a type of taxation.

Then everyone should pay the same. Companies don't determine their fees by income level, tard.

Not entirely true. Some companies due, in fact, change their prices depending on the customers (go to a whole foods in Cali and compare the price to elsewhere. It's generally 10% more expensive once you add it all up).

The issue with taxation is that it's forced, with non-compliance normally been met with lethal force.

>>it isn't theft to pay a company regularly a subscription fee for their services
what is consent

To those in favor of taxation: why wouldn't you be in favor of government-supplied food rations? The government could then own and control all crops, and issue standard meals out of tax revenue. After all, food is a basic necessity used by everyone. What would be the problem with a system like this?

What is "you can move elsewhere?"

...

You are missing the argument. The problem is that the government uses people's money for things they don't want it used for. That is why they think it is theft. You are forced to pay for things you may not use. This isn't just roads and shit it is literally every government programs. Food stamps is a shitty low example. Jeff doesn't need food stamps, so he doesn't want to pay for them for other people.

This may be for the greater good of the society but libertarianism is about the individual. They want corporate roads with tolls, not government built ones.

Again, I disagree with this but your argument is weak against his hypothetical example. You are picking out particulars and not seeing the big picture.