Socialized healthcare

What are some sound, logic based arguments against socialized healthcare? I have heard that there are waiting lists for care and that it is usually very expensive on the middle class because of the taxes involved to make it function. Can I hear from some leafbros or eurobros on what they think about it?

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Bumping the bump

It's immoral, and you don't have a right to other's labor.

The exact argument I heard today was that "real first world countries have figured it out". I don't know if a morality argument would prove a point.

It is definitely immoral. I shouldn't have to work more too benefit the person who has less.

>Cost levied on everyone
In most places, it is brought out of general taxation, leading to higher general taxes on everyone.
In many places, it is supplemented as in the UK with a compulsory "National Health Insurance" which is based on your average weekly income, but caps very quickly, putting an additional strain on lower and middle classes.

>Centralised medicine and monopolisation
This calls for the complete control of the medical industry by government and the central monopoly, as well as the creation and envelopment of health services within a massive bureaucracy.
This means that no decisions are cost effective as corrupt processes in government and bureaucratic acquisitions will always lead to inflated prices of services and goods rendered to the government and the health service.
In shortsighted ways to correct this, there was introduced a premium paid per patient and for particular treatment.

This leads to the NHS muscling out every and all private clinic and surgery in their regions in an effort to collect as high a percentage of the region's patients, amongst national government's disapproval of private health services.

Bureaucracy and a culture of administration takes over, placing management staff over trained doctors and nurses, many hospital directors being un-trained and non-qualified as doctors. Golden Handshakes and exit packets of millions are regular.

>Central control of training, wages, and indentured labour
As the bureaucracy consumes the budget with golden handshakes, corrupt acquisitions and mismanagement, trained staff's wages must decrease to cut cost, leading to low satisfaction, overstretched and underpaid staff who will leave the country to seek far more gainful employment in other countries.

In the UK, doctors receive the lowest average salaries in the entire OECD, with TWO THIRDS leaving for NZ, Australia, Canada and the US.
(cont)

checked

over a third of americans are obese
I'm not going to pay for people who can't or won't maintain their own health

>Golden Handshakes and exit packets
Please explain what these are

That is a fair point to make.

This leads to central government imposing indentured labour requirements upon newly trained doctors, the number of who are already constrained due to their professional societies agitating for it in fears of many doctors pushing government to lower salaries further, to work within the NHS for several years AFTER they are fully qualified, in order to be certified.

>So few doctors, so low wages, how can you fill in?
When 2/3 of new doctors exit as soon as possible, the numbers of trained won't go up, wages are low, and being forced to work persuades many to quit immediately, how do you solve the skills shortage?

Import thousands of poorly trained, non-english speaking, foreign workers who will work for even lower than the current wages.

Cue collapsing efficacy of the health services and rapidly increasing danger to patients.

>But aren't there ways to make money as a doctor?
Yes
Immediately leave the NHS, and become an Agency Doctor - you work to give services to far rural and sparsely populated areas where there are too few doctors as part of an agency.

This will net you x3 to x10, or rarely x100 the rate you would as an NHS doctor, paid by the NHS out of taxpayer's pocket.

Alternatively, become the jew and join the bureacracy, then influence acquisitions to use services from YOUR companies, or ones which you have unduly been influenced or compensated by.

Completely legal.

(cont) 2

Bonuses for entering, and for exiting. Even when you have resigned or been forced out of your position for scandals where in your mismanagement of a hospital has led to many deaths.

I'm actual kind of blown away that a system like this functions at all.

I really wish Sup Forums was around when I had to write high school papers.

OP is so lucky.

Have had 5 knee opeartions after injuring my left knee playing sport. Could have waited 6 months for an operation etc but you have the option to pay the surgeon and have the procedure conducted immediately in a private hospital.

Taxpayers are required to pay 2% levy on taxable income >$30k AUD for socialised healthcare.

Taxpayers who earn >$80k AUD and who do not have private health insurance are required to pay a 1% surcharge.

Visits to GP's are free and visits to specialist Doctor's etc are subsidised by the Govt with a rebate scheme.... Australia is a paradise.

Not exactly. I was arguing with my liberal brother-in-law today. I was slightly drunk and took a few hits off a joint with my real brother, and I went blank. I need to study so when I'm buzzed or fucked up, I can argue effectively.

How much was the cost of an immediate surgery as opposed to waiting the six months.

Government using their powers to make sure essential medicine will not cost over a negotiated limit and use its power to negotiate standard prices in order for med companies to profit and continue to grow while not ripping off its citizen is great. Just like in essential sundry goods.
This I think everyone agreed is common sense.

Socialized healthcare sound really good in paper since it means the government is largest medical provider in the country which in theory gives it needed clout to negotiate with medical providers to minimize cost while maximize coverage.
In theory.

In practice, its pretty terrible and full of cronyism, as in there are lot of money wasted by giving highly overpriced contracts to shell companies owned by relatives or friends so they can subcontract the supplies to proper medical supply companies, gouging the tax payers usually by a full third of the expenses. Rent-seeking basically.
Moreover, the government didn't need extra clout to negotiate, given that they already have the power to ban the products of any company that refuse to comply with their wishes due to sovereignty. So that argument is based on false premise.

Socialized healthcare also means that the healthcare workers are government servants. The difference between government and private sector workers is that if you are a government servant, you are basically set for life, regardless of any offence you will and might commit. The worse thing that they can do is keep sending you away. Government servants are near impossible to fire and the worse thing is they absolutely knows this fact. If you are them and promotions is based on seniority instead of accomplishment, how will your working attitude be?

I should know as my country practice socialized healthcare.

Would you like a 50% starting income tax?

>What about the services, must be okay at least?
As there is no competition within the system over patients, nor insurance to cover the costs of those who are heavily ill.
This directly leads to statistically considered values on the life of patients and rationing of care; does the cost to treat you surpass their number of what your life is worth?

Expect to die untreated, as committees consider the value of keeping you alive and find you wanting.
Many British origin celebrities and personalities in the world would have been refused treatment, leading to their death. Hawking is one example, being treated in the US.

Even when you consider regular services, this does not and cannot compare to what is available to those who pay personally for their own health;
>First
If everything is free, why bother treating yourself, staying healthy, and only using health services when they are truly vital?
As a result, General Practitioners, the equiv to a family doctor and the entry to the health services, as well as our hospital waiting rooms are constantly clogged with people who do not need to be there. People with colds or flu, issues better served at a pharmacy, issues that do not even require medical attention (i.e. hypochondriacs wasting time).

Wait times in Emergency Rooms (Accident and Emergency here) are on the order of several hours. You can sit with a broken limb after having gotten yourself to the hospital and be stuck for 3+ hours in agonizing pain while you wait, even in best circumstances.

>Second
Rationing of care applies everywhere. Routine outpatient operations may take 6months to over a year. If you smoke, are obese, or drink, it is likely that even important operations and treatments be put at the very back of the queue, if not cancelled completely (as happened for a several month period earlier this year). You will be given the very minimum of care, whether in diagnosis or treatment.

Paying for healthcare at least guarantees you will get it

I work for the government so I can appreciate where this is coming from.

No I wouldn't. Is that what you pay?

give or take one percent

Holy shit. Do you have good coverage?

It manages to limp along by massive injections of cash; the budget increase in the NHS over the 1995 to 2010 was over double, and today almost tripling the budget over before 1995.

Stability is ever decreasing and the strain is evident every single day. I doubt that the current ransomware attacks will do anything but hasten the collapse.

Are "death panels" a real thing? I heard that was a myth.

Canada is no better...

What is Canada like exactly?

I haven't looked into it. I'd imagine it is, on paper, but you can't get out of paying double if you want decent care. I just know the lines. Unless you've got appendicitis ready to pop you can expect to spend 6 hours waiting, broken arm or not. Surgery's no better. My sister's had to wait 4+ months to fix a torn ACL twice now.

Oh, right, I just remembered. My mom spent most of a decade, seeing half a dozen doctors over fucking gallstones before they thought to look for it. That's what you get. But hey, at least nobody else is getting any better. That's what really matters.

Finally
>Other incredible issues
In a bid to deepen public-private co-operation, there was the creation of Private Finance Initiatives (PFIs).
These PFIs are in essence finance loans for infrastructure. The problem is that these PFIs require payment regardless of whether the infrastructure or services are used, or even functional. Several hospitals and regional health trusts have developed infrastructure which must later be demolish, mothballed or sold off because it cannot find the patients to use them, or the costs of the loans themselves become too much to manage paying for the infrastructure.

In total, these loans have blown £70 billion of infrastructure to over £170 billion of liabilities, and growing every single year.

>Coverage
This is in a part an issue aggravating by mass immigration; in the national health service, the government and census co-operated with health trusts to create reliable and trustworthy plans and estimations on the services required to treat predicted demographics. This is rather useful as in the UK, most people stay within the anglo-saxon kingdom regions they were born in.

Enter 500k+ people every year, massive and unpredictable, but vastly swamping out our cities in local ghettos.
With the patient premium mentioned earlier, rural hospitals which performed well and financially stably before mass migration fall into massive debt and must close, cutting off vital coverage for vast swathes, pushing people to further and further away hospitals, usually in cities.

These city hospitals themselves become further and further overrun, overused and struggle under the strain of a city population too large.

In private healthcare, this option would at least be solved by creating supply for such high demand. With the NHS monopoly, this simply doesn't exist.

Sounds like a shit system. What about the paying double? Can you pay more for better coverage?

VERY fair point!

I workout and eat a high fat low carb diet, don't smoke, barely drink and take fucking care of myself. No health problems, no medication. No excuses, no "mental health" problems. I never use my health insurance--all I want is a catastrophic plan & my annual (fuck you Obamacare).

Why do I have to pay for diabetic fat-asses with not self-control?

I mean, if you want private health care you're still gonna pay for healthcare you don't use through taxes. Maybe a handful of people's, if you have a decent job.

Very much so. These are the committees I'm referring to, they are mostly reserved for;
>patients for whom treatment is too expensive from the start
>patients who are at the end of the treatment line and have maxed out their rationing
>patients who are likely to die without an expensive drug/treatment which is more expensive than a "quality adjusted life year" - the acceptable cost of an extra year of perfect life.

In these situations, the poor fare worst.

That's what we play b/w fed, state and taxes. And we're American.

Also, fuck single payer. Does anyone in this country want what the VA offers?

Argument against socialized medicine is an argument for free market. Do you like having to choose between different cell service carriers, different auto insurers, different grocery stores? Another good low level argument to stump a normie is: "Everything the government is all messed up and you want to put them in charge of health care?!"

>wanting our shitty ass gubmint to administer health care
nigga you retarded

I have insurance and work with a bunch of people who go to the ER for every little thing. Therefore our premiums go up a shitload every single year because of the abuse. I get where you are coming from.

100% percent a real thing.

Google Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel's health curve. That's your death panels. Basically between ages 10 and 40 you're taken care of. After 50 you're fucked. Peaks at 25.

Healthcare rationing.

Also, he said everyone should died at like age 75.

I don't see the difference, they just get the money from taxes. When they talk on the job they know it's to provide a service to everyone. A policeman doesn't take a job thinking "I'll only help people I want to". And they can quit when they want anyway.

Nigga you retarded. You can't read.

The VA is an extremely good analogy for quality, from what I've heard.

I'd not heard of him or his ideas, but they're quickly being realised with the constant rate of wrongful deaths and MRSA in hospitals.

>What are some sound, logic based arguments against socialized healthcare?

the market delivers healthcare, whether it is socialized or not.

A free market will deliver better, more affordable care, by a long shot. This is indisputable. Just look around you. The free market is amazingly efficient and intelligent. And it is working 24/7, and always improving.

Just think about how decisions are made in a free market, vs a socialist and government controlled market.

In the free market, failing business models disappear, and are quickly replaced. Good models flourish and grow. Productivity and efficiency are high, things change over time, things improve.

In a socialized markets, failing ideas are subsidized, and may never change. Everything is subject to politics and the whims of voters, politicians, and bureaucrats and many other factors. High taxation, high regulation, can keep failing models operating for a very long time, and cause a lot of suffering in the process.

Socialized medicine is incredibly expensive - far more expensive than free market medicine. The costs are simply concealed to the lay-person.

I've been enjoying pointing out that socialized systems run by the government invariably share computer systems, as we found out yesterday.

>In a socialized markets, failing ideas are subsidized, and may never change.
Obama never changed healthcare, just the IDEA of it. He pulled a bait and switch to persuade retards that what they got was what they wanted in the first place. A confusopoly.

This is how socialised healthcare begins and flourishes. You make it a necessity, and every attempt to change, replace or fix it will be met with a rabid screeching cry of opposition.

"HANDS OFF OUR NHS".

As a health conscious, physically active individual who rows on the local river almost every morning, lifts weights 4 days a week, as Well as maintains a good diet and otherwise keeps myself healthy to the highest standard I can...

...Why should I have to pay for the fat single mother of 5 down the road to have another child who won't contribute, and while she is in hospital can look at packages for that double bypass and maybe getting a gastric band fitted? Not to mention when I inevitably get cancer or end up in a car or motorcycle crash, most of the care and equipment I will need will be on a waiting list for these pond life to use.

My wife and I couldn't afford healthcare for a few years and paid a hefty fine each year. I loved the idea of not being able to afford the healthcare, and then being fined for it.

All normies ever bitch about is private insurance agencies not wanting to cover people with cancer and shit, but all the leafs that get cancer flock here for treatment. It doesn't make any sense. Healthcare will be rationed no matter what form it takes. If it is handled privately it is rationed more efficiently.

100% agree.

I also know people who HAVE insurance go to the ER for like...the FLU, and minor sprains (when it's obvious nothing is broken), stuff like that. It's ridiculous. Their just total pussies with no pain tolerance.

I've also heard a horror story from a family whose kid had a 104 degree fever and had to wait for like 6+ hours to get an ER room in a pretty decent hospital outside of a major city, which, just so happened to be was flooded with non-English speaking people who didn't have insurance (this was overheard buy the father who was sitting near the intake office and speaks spanish).

When she passed out around hour 2.5, they brought her down the hall, put her on a cot & got her to wake up. She got a saline IV, and back out into the waiting room she went for another 3+ hours.

Her dad said he thought she was going to die while waiting for a fucking room. (turns out she had meningitis)

I like that argument too but I already pay for welfare mom's in America.

It punished the healthy to pay for Obese people.

Wow. That's horrible. I recently had an injury but my emergency room was empty (5:30am) and I was treated immediately.

yeah it's SO bad. It's an all-around awful situation and nobody except Trump seemed to give a real damn about addressing and correcting the fraud and abuse going on in the VA.

I hope he turns it around some. I hate war, but people that served should be first in line for top care.

It's the most Un-American thing ever!

Still can't believe that "tax" excuse for Obamacare passed thru the Supreme Court. What a FUCKING JOKE.

Yeah I couldn't believe it either. Let me penalize you for not having enough money. Fuck Obama.

>I would never point a gun to your head and force you to agree to my policy
>Would you grant me the same respect?
>they say yes
>ask why they support socialized anything
It's really that simple.

Some other arguments:
>poor people will become poorer to help someone else who may not necessarily need it
>it funds particularly pointless and nonthreatening procedures like for transgenders which should be self funded
>socializing healthcare means physically forcing doctors to see all patients
>forcing a minority (doctors) to serve everyone else will force a waiting list to open up, the very thing people fly to america from Canada and Europe to avoid-- some health issues can't wait that long
>people actually die in these waiting lists in other countries
>forcing people to help other people at their expense is no different from acting as a fascist

We need more medicats.

Get that cat away from my medical care! Last thing I need is the blue pill plague otherwise called Toxoplasmosis

When they start to run out of money, they let you die to make a point. Brit NHS is famous for this: cut their budget 10% and they will set up the waiting list so that 10% of the patients die.
Never let a govt bureaucracy get a hold of your health care!

How fucked is that?
>I'm responsible for your healthcare
>I am highly inefficient at what I do
>Cut my funds and I'll kill people

Go on...

Yes.

Only faggots think they have the moral high ground advocating for a civilization where people can just go bankrupt and die just because they cannot afford the treatment needed, especially for accidents or happenstance disease.

I don't care how you do it. People are living longer in first world countries and they need healthcare to continue doing so, but prices aren't where they need to be for that to occur. Maybe some forms of state control can assist that; other extreme standards of regulation may actually be harmful. But something other than what the US has right now needs to happen. Our system is shit.

Poor people get Medicaid. Fuck off.

>only faggots think its not okay to use the power of the state to rob people to help those less fortunate

Fuck off, communist. If I can't afford my healthcare I can't afford yours either.

Commie bullshit is status quo in US healthcare system. Acting like it's superior to other forms of "socialized" healthcare is dead wrong. I hope you faggots get cancer.

Jokes on you. I have private healthcare. My cancer treatment would be superior.

That's the kind of doctor who would play with your heart.

You say US healthcare sucks and yet you admit commie bullshit is status qup in US healthcare system... (yup, medicaid. which you're probably bitching about b/c that's what you're on).

Shut the fuck up you leech

>What are some sound, logic based arguments against socialized healthcare?
Canada

Reminds me of the biggest FU to Obama this country could ever possibly give him: MAGA'ing on Nov. 8th 2016

It was fucking glorious