I'd like to have a serious discussion with those of you who are willing to challenge their world vision.
My question is: how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul?
I explain myself: >The world isn't limited to what you can touch or see: emotions and feelings are real given that you can experience them yet it doesn't incarnate in a concrete way >Some will argue that emotions are nothing else than a chemical reaction that takes place in your own brain/body >If we go in this direction we can argue that everything can be explained only with chemical reactions and the laws of physics >So if that's true what differentiates you from a machine? If everything is already encoded within the laws of the universe can you say we really have free will? >Nowadays we know that your unconscious processes 99% of the information that gets to your brain, that the role played by your consciousness is really limited and that most of your choices are actually made by your unconscious >So why does consciousness even exist? Why would nature be burdened with something that almost have no purpose and moreover which comsumes an astonishing amount of energy compared to its capacity? Nature isn't used to implement functions that barely have a purpose >So maybe consciousness is the result of something greater within us that goes beyond the basic principle of action-reaction governed by the laws of physics >Maybe we are conscious because we've been gifted with a soul
soul is an invention, imaginary tale to ground belief systems
Christian Walker
All computers and artifcial ai have some sort of conscience too, just much more basic than trillions of connections like the brain
Quick imo: Reality is just an illusion, everything has been programmed from the start, your nurons in your own brain are no less connected than my brain to yours in the giant oneness that is everything
What im trying to say here bro is there cant be a soul
William Robinson
>how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul?
I don't. I'm a mind body dualist interactionist.
The mind is an immaterial concrete (as opposed to abstract which are objects that have no casual relationship with material things) object.
>justify consciousness What did you even mean by this? As in how do we know consciousness exists? Or as in WHY does it exist? I have the intrinsic knowledge that my own consciousness exists.
>how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul?
The thing that allows you to construct the sole idea of soul is what we call consciousness, so pretty god damn easily. /thread
Benjamin Mitchell
Yeah obviously we have a soul senpai The brain talks with something beside itself. I think it's been proven that even plants like blades of grass bend photons before they reach them. Quantum physics shit
Jeremiah Nelson
consciousness isn't supposed to prove the existence of the soul, it IS the soul
free well exists insofar as you determine yourself
in other words, you are determined by physical laws to determine yourself
that is, consciousness is how your body processes itself "locally", ie consciousness is how the system that you are represents itself to itself, spirit is none other "who" all your perceptions/physiological reactions are happening to
this self-relation is essentially what consciousness/spirit, whether or not it's based in biology (it is), neurology can never make consciousness not what it already is
consciousness is the pure self-relating 'void' that opens up when deterministic physical laws become 'blind' to themselves after a sufficient threshold of neural complexity, ie the brain
both sides are incredibly shallow-minded and generally have no idea what they're talking about
Brayden Ramirez
>bend photons quantum physics is a jesuit fairytale.
Jayden James
The heart of the problem I'm trying to highlight lies here: >Nowadays we know that your unconscious processes 99% of the information that gets to your brain, that the role played by your consciousness is really limited and that most of your choices are actually made by your unconscious >So why does consciousness even exist? Why would nature be burdened with something that almost have no purpose and moreover which comsumes an astonishing amount of energy compared to its capacity? Nature isn't used to implement functions that barely have a purpose
>All computers and artifcial ai have some sort of conscience too Still not proved to this day >everything has been programmed from the start Then you don't have free will
Can you develop? >I'm a mind body dualist interactionist. You're still a single entity >immaterial concrete I don't get how it can be a thing : either it's concret and you can touch/see/feel it and it's materialized by some molecules or it's not
I'm trying to see why it even exists, see above
Thanks, I will when I have time
Dunno, can you explain?
Once again I'm not trying to see whether consciousness exists or not, I'm trying to understand why
Of course but it's not ovbious for everyone, and I'm here to challenge my views
Can you develop this : >when deterministic physical laws become 'blind' to themselves The rest seems pretty accurate
William Sanchez
One of of me believes their is a soul while the other part me believes that our brains are quantum antennas and we are drawing from a shared consciousness
Jace Carter
my name is not paco, until you have evidence of such thing exists i will not argue, until such time i will keep on saying that religion is a monumental fairy tale that's impeding progress
Aaron Thompson
maybe soulless but atleast im not fat
Sebastian Perez
Even if we are drawing from a shared consciousness you can still have a part of it within yourself
Kayden Wood
Both correct. Think of the soul as balance. It is what is bound to happen to your life. A soul is the equilibrium of all your actions and inaction. That is why demons are thoughts meant to sway man from his purpose and angels are ideas that are meant to bring them back to life.
Michael Hernandez
The evidence can only be found within yourself, hence you can't share it
Elijah Martinez
Well thats exactly what Hinduism teaches Aren't deamons and angles concepts from Abrahamic religion that don't acknowledge a soul?
Joshua Baker
consciousness is like nature, the architect, getting lost in its own creation
simpler systems, like a rock, exist in total coalescence with the 'background' causality, they just are
more complex biological systems like us can't just "be", the system has to represent itself to itself to be the system that it is, ie a living being capable of interacting with its manipulable environment, and as soon as the system has a center through which it relates back to itself, the space for freedom opens up.
consciousness is nothing other than our body's presence to its own states, only in my own mental states being "imposed" or happening "to" me can my consciousness be what it is, and only by my being fundamentally ignorant of the background causal processing can these states be experienced as happening "to" me, as happening to something other than the organic machine that I am
It's all perspective, really it's all in your head ;)
Michael Long
no, stop imagining things, ground your beliefs in rational thinking.
Levi Perry
Gay
Nicholas Scott
Your evidence is also whimsical and subject to personal opinion rather than anything that can be proven.
Carter Gonzalez
>how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul?
You don't. Consciousness is the spark of life inside all living organisms that comes from our Creator. Without it we have no more meaning than a speck of space dust floating around in the universe millions of miles away.
Kayden Lewis
Well obviously all that you touch and all that you feel is all your life will ever be > We have proof of a shared consciousness look up morphic resonance
Nathan Taylor
>how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul?
What is a soul, if not consciousness?
Nathaniel Carter
>how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul?
Consciousness doesn't need to be justified. It is preeminent.
Matthew Price
>Once again I'm not trying to see whether consciousness exists or not, I'm trying to understand why
Why consciousness exists? Simply enough sensory- and brain function, but if you're trying to get to the philosophical answer of why, good luck with that; you're never going to get it unless you can explain the entirety of existence.
Easton Turner
>consciousness is like nature, the architect, getting lost in its own creation I love this sentence, very well written
>only by my being fundamentally ignorant of the background causal processing can these states be experienced as happening "to" me I don't get it, why do you have to ignore the causal processing to become conscious of your true self ?
Lincoln Long
So it's the old "I think therefore I am" But what about "I feel therefore I am" ?
Aiden Phillips
"zen" guy here Soul isn't real, ego isn't you, you isn't you. Ego is what you define yourself as "voluntary" action. That is only an illusion, involuntary action such as growing your hair, beating your heart, rotating the earth and shinning the sun is as much you as anything else. The ego, is only an illusion, it isn't really you, it's just a set of ideas. The ego is as real as a telephone number. Useful but not real, we forget that.
Lucas Morris
Consciousness is a really good sandwich. Only some people have one, and the ones that do are undeniably better off than those that don't. However, the sandwich is fleeting. You can enjoy it for a moment but then it is gone and you must stoop to your tools and supplies and begin building another one if you hope to once again smell that tasty sun dried tomato basted bread crust and accompanying meat-pickle-condiment deliciousness.
Prove me wrong faggots
Thomas Harris
Was reading about the whole "don't go into the light' thing today. How when you die the light is a trap so they can wipe your mind and send you back. Basically demiurge with his reptile/gray archons making you see your family to attract you to the light.
See, I don't believe that necessarily but I like to entertain the though. The Tibetan book of the dead is interesting too. Makes you wonder, what is really real? Is this real, fake? Is there a soul? A God? A real God, a prime creator/source not just some fake demiurge? What are the the elites praying to? Moloch? Saturn? If evil exists so must good right? I'm so confused. What a clusterfuck.
Isaiah Walker
consciousness allows animals to make more complex decisions, rather than just running on instinct.
Eli Thomas
If we refuse to die they can't trap us in the light
We need to stick together
Aaron Kelly
it's more like, what you get when the system doesn't know whats behind the curtain IS consciousness. I can only experience beauty when it's just there, same with most emotions, even the whole slant of your mind, your deep desires and inclinations, these are just there kinda floating in nothing, you cant trace the causal dominoes back to some x that explains the way you are, some metalanguage that gives you an objective perspective on your own subjectivity
as soon as you get a system that cant see behind its own back, you get consciousness. and the interesting part is, the more you accept this, the more you find your "true" self (that is, the self that rises above any one determination because it knows it can never be this or that property through-and-through, but the space or 'void' in which these states happen etc.)
Nathan Allen
It's not about what you think or believe, it's what you experience when you seek within yourself and try to find your true self. It's not about opinions or what's going on in your head, stop thinking and start listening to your own self. Yes it's "subjective" and "personnal", but nonetheless it is. That's not something you'll find with reasoning and arguments and the fact that you can only experience it within yourself doesn't mean it isn't here.
Lincoln Young
God is real, Satan is real. The elites pray to Satan because he is the king of this world.
Jackson Nelson
What religion are you?
Matthew Allen
I would rather say that consciouness is the manifestation of soul
Aiden Cooper
>Simply enough sensory- and brain function The unconscious can process this information without the help of conscience. So why is conscience even here ?
Eli Roberts
>hurr durr, I don't know any actual science There is no soul. You're a pussy who is afraid of death, just like every other spiritual person out there.
Caleb Morales
>cuts out your heart >rolls your body down the stairs Mexitrolls
Nicholas Stewart
We have a soul.
There is more than one reality.
A bloodthirsty kike war diety has little or nothing to do with it.
No, Jesus is not part of Yahweh, otherwise he would have mentioned him once.
Nathaniel Allen
why does consciousness need to be justified?
Oliver Scott
So spirituality and enlightenment are ignorance? I wonder, would it change anything if you knew every infinitesimal detail forming yourself? I honestly think that if you can make sense of how your own brain works down to the smallest detail, you'll have a more complete understanding of beauty both inner and outer. Problem is the human mind contradicts itself and making sense of your own mind while BEING your own mind is sorta like reading a story with your eyes closed and somebody slurring the words jumbled into your ear.
TL;DR I fundamentally disagree but you make some cool points.
Henry Hughes
Why ask questions? Why at all? Why?
Andrew Myers
You can only rely on what you experiment or you get lost easily. It have to sound right to yourself as a whole, not only your brain but your heart and your guts too
Nathaniel Hernandez
Personality doesn't even persist. So who gives a shit?
What good is a lifeform with intelligence? What value? It isn't even persistent in value in human form so why care about post human? Fuck consciousness, fuck intelligence and fuck life. I'm 45 and it's not worth getting worked up about. You live, you fight, you die. That's fine. Whatever. I don't hate it, I don't love it, I won't miss it, even if I remember it. Chances are I won't remember it, whether because I've transformed or ceased to exist, it doesn't fucking matter. Do you remember being sperm? Me either. You're in Jew hell and that's all you need to know about any of this.
Justin Perry
No, not a bad ignorance, its an ignorance or a kind of "willful blindness" to empty, cyclical causality of nature, and since nature/reality's laws are all there is, then consciousness has to be nothingness itself.
and enlightenment is just an identification with, a willing of this nothingness. typical consciousness is kind of subconsciously assuming the contents of your mind are you, when they proceed from a causal foundation that you, by definition, are "blind" to (like surges of anger, passion, inspiration, etc. that just happen to us). enlightenment is more like investigating these causes and AT THE SAME TIME kind of detaching yourself from their effects. so you know your experience of beauty isn't necessarily the "real" you, its a product of your specific physiology, past history, etc. and yet at the same time, by knowing this and taking a step back from your phenomenology, that very same beauty becomes even greater as soon as your ego isn't wrapped up in it.
so its like a nothing that is a gradient: at the low end, you get actual, no-shit ignorance because you cant see behind your own back, at the higher end you get self-realization because by accepting you cant see behind your own back you already, in a way, HAVE
Isaiah Torres
It is more simply understood as I am able to think/perceive, therefore I must exist. It is fundamentally arguing that an entity that has consciousness must satisfy the criteria of existing. Thus, Cogito ergo sum is the only indisputable a priori knowledge.
Jaxson Mitchell
>My question is: how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul?
I just think your consciousness is tied to your physical form. When your body dies, so does your mind and all you've ever been.
Lincoln Ross
Ok I get it. I agree with what you said overall, I'll just add that the ultimate goal is just "to be"
Christopher Butler
I'm a deeply spiritual person but I'm not devoted to a single religion in particular. I have my own belief system that I build on what I experience to be true. And I'm born christian if that's the meaning of your question
Sebastian Barnes
If consciousness did not exist, then nothing would be asking that question in the first place. It's similar to asking why the universe exists. The miracle of consciousness is only possible to appreciate in the context of experiencing itself. This sounds pretty bullshit, but no one knows how consciousness or the universe came into being. All that can be said is that it was widely regarded as a bad move.
Joseph Miller
I've been in engineering school and have studied science for years. So I surely know way more about it that most of you
Lincoln Harris
The laws of physics do not apply for stuff really small or stuff really large
Luke Ross
well what I'm saying is the goal "to be" is really another of saying "own the nothing that you are", but yeah you got it
Ian Evans
my consciousness is my frontal lobe interacting with my amygdala and stimuli.
Your frontal lobe is where your "personality" is, and your amygdala processes stimuli into emotions.
Try reading a book nigger.
Jayden Long
Because behind the question of consciousness is the question of free will which is legitimate
Connor Young
Wrong board. Those answering this survey honestly should KTS
Logan Kelly
Just because you don't know how something works, doesn't mean it has to be a "higher force"
But, whatever, i'll try to pull something out of my ass:
There is no such thing as a "spiritual/holy soul", and it has no connection to the conscious part of a being.
Nature developed an conscious mind because: Imagine if you were to have all your now uncoscious thoughts in your counscious state. To make it short: It would be psychological hell and you would just behave like an animal.
That's why we developed so far to have "two minds". One to process all that is around, one for decision making.
But, if you truly want to believe in a soul, then..... What could be seen as a soul is your "energetic makeup". Living beings are full or "energy". How do you think our bodies function? Das rite: "energy", "electricity" even.
Going by that logic, people and animals could by affected or even killed by EMPs, and that's not entirely wrong but, the energy in living beings is much more "pure" than common electricity etc. But, do mind that living beings can get affected by electromagnetic waves---
The point i want to make is:
Humans are nothing special. They could as well be "robots". You are born, you live, you eat, you shit, you sleep and you die. Welcome to hell.
Jose Gomez
I am what I'am
Anthony Miller
there's literally absolutely nothing preventing humans from thinking they're as special as they want to be
there is literally no reality without a consciousness there to say so, I have no idea why cucks like you want to think of human beings in such demeaning and lifeless terms
Brayden Jackson
A plant can percieve reality as it is able to adat to it. But can you really say a plant is able to think ?
James Gonzalez
He is right. You are afraid to die, and that's what makes you special. You value your life. If we never died then life would be pointless. You might disagree but then you would be retarded. All good things must come to an end. Nothing lasts forever.
Don't look at it as hell though. The way to live forever is to leave a mark on this world. If you think this world is evil, try to make it good. Love, honour, loyalty, make that your anchor in the endless void of chaos.
Nolan Wright
...
Carson Russell
This seems to be a hard topic being pushed today... Can you explain why you're inquiring and whether or not you're connected to the group that posted the other threads today?
Lincoln Thompson
>there's literally absolutely nothing preventing humans from thinking they're as special as they want to be
Truth be told, yeah, you're right. But, you can drown yourself in arrogance and die an ignorant death
OR
Accept that humans are just billions of years of random interactions between matter. But, just because life doesn't matter doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.
Kayden Scott
consciousness is special IN SPITE of it being the product of billions of years of lifeless gunk, what's so hard about this to understand?
Benjamin Edwards
So you believe in a God, that created you and wants you to serve Him, right? I mean since He made you, you owe Him that. How do you know the proper way? The Bible? Which interpretation? King James is the closest to the original Hebrew and Greek, but I don't know those languages. How do you know you are serving Him correctly? I believe as well, and these are serious questions.
Jonathan Ortiz
...By soul.
Isaac Ross
...
Tyler Taylor
I hold the soul to be the unconscious rather than the conscious.
Ryder Young
>afraid of death >pussy Nice projecting there tough guy.
Chase Rivera
>Can you explain why you're inquiring That's something I had on my mind for some times and wanted to talk about it, was bored today so I decided to post it >and whether or not you're connected to the group that posted the other threads today? Absolutly not. Which threads are you talking about ?
Mason Rodriguez
I would welcome death if it was extinction of consciousness. Hell is quite simple to visualize. You wake up, no matter what. Heaven, though, is harder. You wake up because you want to.
Mason Lewis
>My question is: how do you justify consciousness without the existence of soul? I don't.
Wow that was challenging.
Liam Green
Given certain life experiences, a criminal could shank you right in front of your door, steal your wallet, rape your dog and not give a fuck. And he too, is the product of billions of years of space shenanigans, possesing a conscious mind, yet behaves like an animal.
No one is special, you're not special. Give up your inflated ego. Accept and live with this meaningless existence or simply eat a bullet if you can't stand the reality.
Jordan Brown
Consciousness gave our species insane benefits over time, and even at the dawn of man it already as paying off for the costs. I don't know if it is the proper way life develops given the specific situation we as a species were in, or our consciousness is a minor fluke, an accidental mutation of the kind that's usually slightly beneficial or slightly harmful. Yet still, we learned how to craft instruments that compensated for our lack of claws, clothing that hid our bodies instead of fur, and of course, we learned of the fire, not compensating but inventing, doing something no other beast yet did: conquering a once feared and dangerous power of nature. Mind isn't a material thing, it's entirely a human construct and am amazing one step that. I wouldn't be surprised if, ultimately, we are the only sentient species in the galaxy or the universe, and thus are to be the typical old ones, giving sentience to many species in the galaxy. Is it soul that gives us this unique power, the ability to bend reality, given time and effort, to our will, or is it just a lucky mutation, the biggest gamble in our planet's history? I don't know. I'm fine with either, but the latter seems more reasonable.
Cameron Lewis
That isn't what hell is. Hell is nothing, and endless void of nothingness. Cold empty nothingness... Forever.
Have you ever been knocked out? It's like that. Just black and then you are gone.
Thomas Mitchell
> That's something I had on my mind for some times and wanted to talk about it, was bored today so I decided to post it Ah'. > Absolutly not. Which threads are you talking about ? Aye'. Seems as though there is something in the air.
Justin Long
...
Jordan Hughes
... consciousness that somehow exists in a meaningless void sounds pretty special to me?
Landon Morris
Douglas Hofstadter actually has written a grand book on the matter, OP. Try and find a copy of Eternal Golden Braid.
The tl; dr is that our "souls" are impressions of the outside world reflecting upon our mind, being processed, then reflecting our conclusion along with the first impression, processing again, and on and on into infinity like a gigantic fractal.
Blake Young
do humans have souls? what if a human grew up without ever learning a language. all of his thoughts would be in pictures and feelings. would he have a soul? (deaf people don't count for this) do apes have souls? do dogs have souls? do dumb birds have souls? do insects have souls? do eukaryotic unicellular organisms have souls? do prokaryotes have souls? we don't know what came before single-celled organisms YET, but i'm sure the missing link will be filled it eventually. it probably all traces back to random amino acids formed via aminogenesis in "primordial soup", which i'm sure you've heard about. do these amino acids have souls?
anyways, hopefully you draw the line somewhere. hopefully you don't say yes or no to all of the above. if you do draw a line, then you're saying that having a soul depends on your intelligence and your complexity as an organism.
if you say yes to all of the above, i'd say thats ridiculous. amino acids are just molecules. they merely exist.
>>So if that's true what differentiates you from a machine?
nothing. you are an organic machine, just a much more sophisticated version of an ant or a yeast cell. harsh truth i know. when science was primitive, most people sought to answer those hard hitting questions with religion. those preachers sure sounded confident, so the people believed them. their words made people feel better about the world, and there weren't any other explanations around. free souls with every conversion.
>>So why does consciousness even exist? Why would nature be burdened with something that almost have no purpose and moreover which comsumes an astonishing amount of energy compared to its capacity?
Nature gave humans intelligence. Humans evolved to be more intelligent, which gave them an evolutionary advantage. However, humans gave humans language, and "consciousness" as a result.
>Maybe we are conscious because we evolved a highly intelligent brain that was flexible enough to develop around language
Isaac Scott
digits don't lie leafbro
Tyler Evans
How can you be happy with an answer such as that? That it just had to come into excistence? Obviously that is how nothing happened if it took 4 billion years for us the present on the earth. There had to be a buildup. The argument of God or no god is invalid in this situation because either way it does not matter.No that's not the way it worked... another species before us had claws and had teeth but as evolution happened and mammal species were isolated from each other; the precursor of humans that had biological defensive measures died and those with greater intellegence survived. nothing to do with adapting to what was given...
Robert Jenkins
>So you believe in a God, that created you I believe that God/the Universe/Life has always been and always will be. Life creates and perpetuates itself. >and wants you to serve Him, right? That concept is way too "human" to be true. God "is", and not God wants. >How do you know the proper way? Seek within yourself as we all hold the truth within our hearts.
Blake Foster
That what you have is just hope mixed with fear.
Dylan Allen
and a yeast cell is just a more simplified version of a human being.
you're picking arbitrary points along the evolutionary ladder and trying to reduce subjectivity to what it is obviously not
a human isn't "just" a more sophisticated version of anything, it is what it is, not "just" a more complex version of something that it is not, so I guess it's not really just that thing is it? your whole post amounts to "we're made of atoms, cells are made of atoms, whoa"
Parker Diaz
there is no morality without God there is no morality without free will there is no free will without God there is no civilisation without free will
literally God is the reason everything evolved to this point
Ryan Reyes
do we have free will? of course not. i'd like to blow up the sun with my mind, teleport, and restore Sup Forums to its 2008 population. but i can't. ez question.
Blake Hill
>So why is conscience even here ? To rationalize the actions that were decided by the subconscious, I suppose
