Reformation of Islam

ITT islam should be reformed.
While it's all well and good being edgy and hating all muslims, that's never actually going to achieve anything.
Also there are people who call themselves muslims but who do not agree with the violent aspects of islam, they may not be the majority but there are lots of them and their views should be encouraged.
The trouble is that these people don't have a platform, even in their own community and have no choice but to be lumped inwith the traditionalists. This also means that SJWs end up defending all muslims as a whole rather than being able to condem the majority while praising the few.
So, what steps could be taken to help islam to reform and what would the reforms be?
I think the first step should be to translate the quran into English, make the reading order chronological and remove the later, violent chapters.

In before deus vult - it's not gonna happen.

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>islam should be reformed.

according to sam harris and friends, it should be. good luck with that.

at the present moment I don't think it can be reformed

>sam harris
Never heard about that guy - seems pretty based.

You could be right but look around at the young, EMPLOYED muslims in our country. They are exposed to our way of life so I think they would be a good target.

>Never heard about that guy - seems pretty based.

hes half jewish, an atheist and anti-trump so most of Sup Forums hates him however hes staunchly anti-islam while still being liberal on most issues. he has a friend hes always talking to named maajid nawaz who is an ex islamist and is always going on about reforming islam.

Fuck off cuck. Islam should be reformed with Zyklon B.

>Islam should be reformed
It has just been reformed. The result of this reform is called Wahabism.

this is usually how it goes:

>blogger in saudi arabia makes a blogpost in his personal .tk blog
>"islam should be reformed"
>1 day later he is beheaded

A true reformation can not be possible until the House of Saud is purged and the holy land reclaimed. They hold the reigns of the faith and their guidance has lead the Ummah where it is today.

It has already been done. Ther are Ahmadiyya and Alevi Muslims that are everything you would want out of a reformed Islam. Peaceful, relative gender equality, tolerant. But their creed never took off and orthodox Muslims keep slaughtering them to this day.

Won't work
The Christian Reformation webt back to its roots and worked because of that.
Doing so with Islam would only make it worse and doing anything else won't work because the religion is quite clear on not changing shit.
Fuck yourself and read a book before you open a shitty thread like this.

The influence of the Saud on radical Islam is grossly exaggerated. For the most part they had close to zero influence on the spread of salafism which very often often develop specifically against them.

I hate to agree with a swede, but that

How the fuck do you go on about reforming it ? Quran was written by Muhammed, who got it straight from Allah. By reforming you'd have to change Quran. So basically you would be saying that either Muhammed lied, or Allah was wrong. If Muhammed lied, how can you believe anything in Quran? If Allah was wrong, he is not a fucking God. There is no reformation for Islam. Only total anhilation will work.

REPEAT AFTER ME. IT'S NOT THAT ISLAM SHOULD BE REFORMED AS TO BE MORE CHRISTIAN, BUT CHRISTIANITY THAT NEEDS TO BE REFORMED AS MORE ISLAMIC.

>Ahmadiyya
>Alevi
>Muslims

That doesnt make sense. Muslims believe the Qur'an is literally, word for word, down to the language, revelation straight from God. Christians, on the other hand, have wiggle room because they believe the Bible was written by man but divinely inspired

>let's reform islam so we get outbred by calm people instead of angry people
Really gets the noggin joggin.

Let's just get this straight.
Early Christianity used to be exactly like modern Islam.

Do you know what was needed for the faith to mellow down and become civil?

First there was emperor Constantine who reformed it into a state religion by merging all other faiths from within the whole Roman Empire in it and ensured that none of the religeous doctrines fuck with imperial law or Roman traditions.

Then they rashly went back on that last part and pretty much shut down any non-government approved schools of philosophy.

Then Crhsitians waged religeous wars among each other until about the 17th century.


So no.
You aren't going to be able to reform Islam on any short notice even with a full on dictatorship to support the movement.

The only thing that can be done is to reform western civilisation so it can survive against Islam for long enough till Islam reforms it self.

Which means Europeans must go full ''British Colonial Empire-mode'' and give no fucks about colonizing and economically dominating the world.

White people need to get more agressive and fuck more.
Getting rid of certain womens rights might achieve that.

POL NEEDS TO START A SCHISM, FOR A MORE FUNDAMENTAL (AND RADICAL) VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY. IT WILL BE EASIER TO SPREAD OUR MESSAGE WHEN WE ARE BEHIND A RELIGION. IT WILL ALSO BRING PEOPLE BACK TOGETHER!

Exactly. Any attempt to reform Islam once more would again be considered heretic just like them.

> If Muhammed lied, how can you believe anything in Quran?
Now you're getting it.

>Early Christianity used to be exactly like modern Islam

>Quran was written by Muhammed, who got it straight from Allah.

The Quran wasn't written by Muhammad as he was illiterate. It was written by the companion of the prophet.
Also he didn't get it straight from Allah but the Angel Gabriel acted as a proxy.
But yeah, while the bible is man-made according to Christians, the Quran is supposed to be the word of God according to Muslism. It can't be changed.

(OP) #
>Early Christianity used to be exactly like modern Islam.

Stopped there. You are a fucking retard with no knowledge or history or common sense.

islam should be eradicated

youtu.be/gL-LRw5GBLE

>Early Christianity used to be exactly like modern Islam.

It was nothing like Islam. It was like small hippy/communist communes.

right of the bat you spout nonsense man.
early christians were martyr, persecuted .
early (and late) mulsims were murderes, persecutors.

If you do not fall under any of the categories listed here you are not a muslim

Islam will never reform, they are too fucking stubborn. That's why it's never reformed, because any muslim that brings reform up gets lynched on the spot by the other sandniggers.

Well keep dreaming but you actually do have a point. Fucking white males here so beta as fuk, you can see them in the streets push him, yell at him and still wont do shiit probably starts crying. A good example are the polish people they dont let anyone fuck with them and if you do they Will just beat you up.

youtu.be/TCkfC5ZRfbw
"Ramadan is killing people off"

Islam should not be "reformed", it has to be physically rearranged so as to be contained in the Arabian peninsula where it belongs. Any Muslim outside of Arabia is part of an occupying or invading force. This is purely military problem, not a religious one.

Won't happen. There is no Muslim pope to tell these retards to stop being retards. They won't listen to any non Muslims and Muslims in authority positions won't speak out because they are brainwashed by a death cult or they are scared of the death cult.

It will be harder because there is no central authority, eg the Pope that you can break away from and start a revolution, there are many interpretations and the fundamentalist non compromising ones can always resurface.

90% of the problematic shit in Islam isnt even in the Quran.

There have been many so called 'reformers' including ones alive today. all of them either end up being assassinated or prosecuted and their works ignored and demonized, along with total and complete obliviousness and ignorance of the west.

also heres a pro tip for you, a thing the west can easily do: stop dumping insane amounts of money on the wahabis for their oil, how about that?

What is that utter dogshite you posted?

>ITT islam should be reformed.
If you take all the evil out of Islam it has no identity left.

Ibn al-Wahhab is considered an Islamic reformist. That's what we're dealing with.

HAVE OUR RELIGION PREACH SELF IMPROVEMENT AND TO NOT BACK DOWN, WE CAN TURN BETAS INTO MEN.

You do realise it is impossible to reform Islam?

By "reform" people usually mean removing Muhammad from the picture, so he is no longer the role model for Muslims to follow.

But Muslims will never accept this. Almost every religion has a central human figure, usually a founder, that represents a perfect model of piety for the religious to follow. He informs the faithful what being religion X is all about.

Jews have Moses, Christians have Jesus, Buddhists have Buddha, Sikhs have their gurus. Religions only exist because others want to follow the teachings of it's human founders. Once the founder is written out of the picture, there is no purpose for the religion to exist, the edifice collapses. There is no incentive for Muslims to abandon Muhammad because it would delegitimise Islam by default.

>Believing in any religion
>2017

None of them are true.

For those of you who don't know.
Nero didn't burn Rome.

Early Christians were infamous pyromaniacs who targeted merchants they didn't like and torched down the temples of any other faith they could get away with.
Stoning and lynching others was their staple behaviour.

The whole Sekrit Edgy Underground club shit is what drew in the high class Roman youth into the whole deal.
Early Christians were most similar to Black metal fans in the 80-s and 90-s.

Pick up a book or two and read through sources other than the Church who reported on early Christians.
They were full on sand-nigger tier.

No, hes the equivalent of christian evangelicals, 'salafi' means the ancestors, i.e following the old ways, no reformation is involved .

What if we only concentrated on western countries?
Muslims can't read arabic in our countries anyway and rely on immams to interpret it for them, that's how they can lie to themselves that their religion doesn't preach violence.
If the government gave out loads of "translated" qurans to the English speaking muslims and did this for a few generations? Would that be enough to stop them learning the real islam and eventually become as hostile to traditionalists as modern christians are to WBC etc?

Sounds like a carnival ride

Pushing Qu'ran only Islam would be a good start. Many of the justifications for violence actually come from the Hadith.

Sure, there are several Qu'ran passages that can be interpreted to promote violence, but the Old Testament has similar passages which could be brushed away.

The movement needs leaders who are secularists, and who will readily identify as their nationality above religious or ethnic identities.

Two things need to be done. One is to try to imbue Muslims with principals identified as conservative such as support of free market capitalism, Patriotism, personal responsibility, and an understanding of the law of man and the Western idea of Rights.

This is important. Because the current atmosphere encourages Muslims in Western countries ro be enticed by degenerate life styles that result in them becoming more and more like niggers.

Second thing is to ultimately research among older Muslims. After world war one, Islam moderated in parts of the Arab world with the collapse of the ottoman empire.. Colonialism helped Islam moderate also, forcing Muslims to respect the life styles and technology of the West. Muslims the twenties to the eighties were the closest Islam came to moderating.

When I say research among older Muslims I mean, root out the conservative ones that hate globalism and communism that came to the West in the 80s or before. Get them active in their community.

France has a lot of Muslims ideal for this. There was an enclave of Muslims in France that, during the Algerian war for Independence, would regularly hold rallies in support of the French in Paris. The Algerian liberation movement, FLN, was communist and used radicalized Muslims to systematically kill Muslims to intimidate the village into supporting the FLN. Most Muslims in Algeria wanted to be French and fought with the French against the FLN. Many of them, even veterans, are are still living in France.

There was a time when the provincial government in Algeria was going to give Parliament seats to the FLN as a negotiation for killings to stop. The government in Algeria was overthrown. The French president DeGualle amassed "emergency powers," established the "fifth republic" of France and in 1958 allowed every colony to vote on Independence or accepting the Constitution of the fifth republic. Every colony voted to remain French but Guinea.

YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE ISLAM OR MUSLIMS, YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE YOURSELVES AND FORCE ISLAM TO CHANGE IN RESPONSE TO YOU.

Pretend we found the 'real qu'ran' and push a conspiracy theory that the current qu'ran was made by (((them))).

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE RELIGION ITSELF YOU DOLT, THEY ARE WINNING AGAINST THE WHITES AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.... THEY DON'T CARE AS LONG AS IT WORKS.

>B-but the Bible also contains hatred
>Parts of the Bible from BC
>Quran written over a thousand years after chrst
>Muslim teachings comparable/worse than Pre-Christ era

asking islam to reform shows complete lack of knowledge about islam.

Why would a tiger want to remove its claws?

Why would cancer want to stop spreading?

The parts of Islam the west wants to reform are exactly the parts that threaten us.

Their MO for 1400 years has been political and violent take over of neighbouring states, what makes you think they would want to change just because you asked them nicely?

And all of this ignores Reform CANNOT HAPPEN.

There is no central power structure in Islam, no one voice to command all muslims.

Islam is UNREFORMABLE

Dude, a reform is way less likely to happen than a war against islam. Religious reforms tend to be fundamentalist, in nature, unless something NEW comes along, and invalidates parts of the old religion, transforming it into a new religion altogether. Examples would be Judaism to Christianity, Hinduism to Buddhism, or (I hate to say it) Christianity to Mormonism. When a religion has a reform while retaining its identity, though, it's generally a movement to go back to basics, like Catholicism to Protestantism. Hell, islam tries to have reforms all the time--by constantly resetting their practices back to earlier, more caliphate-like iterations of the religion. ISIS is an example of islamic reform. When religions think something is wrong with how they practice, they tend to blame any extra bullshit they've picked up since the religion began, and try to reset the clock on the religion, because it's easier to say "we've gotten too far from God," than it is to say, "parts of our core religion are wrong."

Which is a shame since they only decent forms of Islam, the Quran Only people and the Mutazalite's, are both not on that list.

Islam was doomed to perpetual ignorance and immorality once the asharites won.

So how about a different approach?
Rather than getting their leaders to reform, encourage apostacy instead?
Or have fake immams intentionally misinterpret to make it more compatible with our culture?
Again - I only care about the west, I know this would not work in actual muslim countries but just look at how much control the media has over white people. Surely muslims can't be hard to brainwash with degeneracy too?

That would most likely backfire, tricking stupid westerners into thinking that islam is even more peaceful than they already think it is, while muslims, themselves would probably think it's taqiyya meant to trick westerners, and ignore it.

You have to remember that we're dealing with a religion that ALREADY lies to people about what islam actually teaches, in order to make islam seem more benign than it actually is. Lying about islam is common practice for muslims, and they are trained to ignore the bullshit that they sell to westerners.

Quran only would be a great first step. The problem is that it'll be embraced by only a small number of westernized wealthy muslims. Mostly in the US and maybe a few in Europe. In turn the entire rest of the muslim world will associate Quran only with the west and will avoid it as a matter of nation and ethnic identity. And good luck getting Quran only to spread from a majority islamic country.

Does anyone seriously expect Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Indonesia to be the birthplace and spreader of liberal quran only islam? And if the movement doesn't start there then how on earth will it spread there? And how will a minority western inclined Quran only movement compete against Saudi funding?

It's funny because Islam is literally "Sup Forums: the religion".
It isnt the religion itself there's something wrong with, it's the subhumans that practice it.

>It isnt the religion itself there's something wrong with
>being this stupid
How much do you actually know about the quran, Sven? Even "quran only" would barely be an improvement. Much of the quran is literally about annihilating and enslaving non-muslims. Try again, everyone.

Just like the Bible, the Quran can be interpreted.

Maybe Egypt, because of the Copts.

A "reformed" Qu'ran only Islam that is friendly to secularism would have to come from the US, UK or maybe Asia, somewhere where secularism is already the norm.

"Populations end up with the dominant religion that their mean IQ can support."

Islam is very hard to reform for exactly this reason. IQ.

Also, most of its adherents want the original thing, not a kuffar or women-friendly version, because they correctly understand that it protect them from modernity.

tldr; reforming islam won't happen either.

we should focus on consumerism as a tool to make religion less relevant and islamic demography less of a threat.

The topic is about reforming Islam, not bashing it or pointing out its flaws, we're working with what we have.

the whole point of the coran, is that it is an unaltered text. been the same since the prophet wrote it in a cave.
also, 99.9999% of uslims are not violent and know what islam is about, we don't need a reform. islam works well as it is.

the real problem is not islam, the real problem are occidental countries trying to steal, either oil, land, put military bases in uslim countries, or try to distabilize the countries by turning the people against their government with propaganda.

also dont forget muslim people are not angels, they are humans like the rest, so some will brake the law, islam doesnt garantee to muslimms to go to heaven, ma y will go to hell anyways.

we don't have that cuck thing of getting all our sins washed off by going to see a pedo priest, or paying some money. only way to redeem yourself, is to do good and pray that god forbids you.

Unfortanately, the parts the quran that make islam a threat to the rest of the world are quite detailed and numerous.

Now imagine whites being muslim and sandniggers being the non-muslims.
Would you still advocate for not killing non-muslims?

Point is, from their side it makes perfect sense but the west is too castrated to react on it.

>we should focus on consumerism as a tool to make religion less relevant and islamic demography less of a threat.
This isn't the answer. What you're talking about is like chemotherapy, killing both cancer and healthy cells alike.

I realize what the topic is. I'm saying that reducing the religion to just the quran, or trying to change how the quran is interpreted, is POINTLESS, because the quran is MOST of the problem with islam. There is no way to properly reform islam. Unlike most religions, its "peaceful" phase only lasted 12 years, and was abrogated by the chapters that Muhammad wrote once he was angry at every for rejecting his religion. YOU WOULD HAVE TO LITERALLY CHANGE WHAT THE QURAN SAYS TO REFORM ISLAM.

Islam isn't good for racial supremacists, either, because you aren't allowed to hurt anyone who converts to islam, and faithfully practices the religion. TRY AGAIN.

Islam in its current form encourages, almost demands the transformation of society into an Islamic form. How do you suggest that Islam in its current form exist inside of a secular society that affords the freefom of religion for all?

Do you believe that a secular society which affords freedom of religion to all is superior to say, an Islamic Republic?

If you don't, then you will see the disconnect.

The US is the mostly likely place for it to happen since muslims here are pretty wealthy and pretty isolated which encourages liberalization, excepting shitty concentrations in place like Minnesota. Our population of Iranians who fled the revolution also helps.

But that still takes us back to the problem that the most likely place for islamic reform will automatically cause resistance to such reform in the rest of the world. It's difficult to separate religion from ethnicity especially when you can use religion to show how you are not 'them'. It's why Protestantism became so fiercely adopted in europe among anti-Hapsburg ethnicities. Just imagine how easy it for most of the Islamic world to ignore Quran only if they were able to dismiss it as "those USA so-called 'muslims'"

Your comment indicated reducing the relevance of religion in general, that's what I was referencing.

>LITERALLY CHANGE WHAT THE QURAN SAYS
I see nothing wrong with that.

>bunch of retards who don't know shit about the culture, the region and the history try to reform anything

just go and clean your fucking room you retards

No, I was quoting someone else.

I don't, either. How would we go about doing that, though? Therein lies the problem.

It would be a long process, centuries maybe, but a form of Islam that is friendly to secular society would have benefits traditional Islam would lack. I would argue the movement once well established in the West could eventually spread to lands where traditional Islam is the norm and potentially supplant it.

this is the answer if the impact is differential, if populations are not equally affected.
I agree that mass consumption is cancer.

Muslims have killed each other for centuries. It depends on what you regard as muslim.
Just say non-whites can never be muslim and there you go, problem solved.

step 1. get rid of the hadith
step 2. have people stop actually reading the Quran. make it something that everyone pretends they've read but no one actually does, like the bible in the modern west.
step 3. get all these hadith ignoring, quran only but not reading muslims to have all the same values as the west and just assume its there in the Quran.
Step 4. encourage ideas of 'oh that's just metaphor' and 'those bad things were just for the exact context of back then, they don't apply now.'
step 5. bring back the mutazilite ideas that god existed before the quran. that way you can have morals existing before the quran. then you can slowly reduce the importance of the quran to a 'guideline given long ago' instead of "the literal eternal uncreated and co-eternal word of God"

If there is hope for islamic reform to something not complete shit that's it. But it all starts with getting rid of the hadith.

Before the oil boom, Salafism did not exist outside of Saudi Arabia. You had bizarre Islamic syncretism like Sufism with Hindus in India and Tengrism with Uyghurs & Turks in Central Asia. Sectarian Shi'ia/Sunni conflicts were also much less frequent. Wahhabism precedes all other Islamic fundamentalist movements by centuries. You can directly see the rise in these movements with Saudi funded madrassas and Qurans spreading.

And mirroring the Saudis, Iranian Shi'ia imams and ideology followed after the Islamic Revolution.

>in the rest of the world
I couldn't care less about the rest of the world, only the west. If some muslims go off to get taught the real islam don't let them back in.
I want the SJW rose tinted vision of what a muslim is to be the "truth" in our countries.

i'll tell you a story:

we know that the abrahamic scriptures have been following us for centuries and thousands of years

in this day and age, those books still have an imposing presence in our minds and society

these books contain hints of reality and truth despite looking completely silly at first

one day, there was an empire called the russian empire

it had chosen as its basis religion, christianity to be more precise

one day, rebellious entities decided to steer away from god and religion and created communism

they took over the empire, and imposed their godless beliefs on the entire people

what followed next was decades of suffering and misery

even at the peak of soviet union, things were horrible there

so what happened? soviet union crashed and burned

the basis of this society was godless, and without religion, rejection of scriptures and god

to become a livable country again, what did the russians do? they reverted the basis of their society back to god and religion

they went further back than the modern, human created systems in order to get back in shape

any human created system is bound to fail and we can see this throughout history, with the freshest example being the soviet union, and the next one being the european union

today, western ideals are godless ideals, and your system is bound to fail just like the soviet union failed

the quran recognizes previous scriptures and prophets thus completely shredding your retarded post into bits

>spend half of your free time subverting and rebuking Christianity for how backward and horrible it is
>spend the other half promoting how wonderful Islam could be if we just let it be more like Christianity
Gas yourself.

That would require changing the text of the quran. Muslims kill other muslims on the basis of not being good enough muslims. Trying to implement islam in the name of wiping out different races would just result in a battle over who the "true" muslims are. Again, ONLY if the parts of the quran about trying to convert EVERYONE, and killing the remainder are changed. Otherwise, any undesirable group could escape persecution by blending fully with the core muslim population, which would make it obvious that you were only persecuting them based on race, if you did so.

another person who doesn't know shit

a large portion of today's islamic jurisprudence is sourced from HADITH and not the quran

had you known anything, you wouldn't have written such asinine bullshit

Well that's why I made the thread :)
But I think simply translating it to English (so that muslims can read for themselves that what the immams say is wrong) would be a start.

That would be a bonus but not that important.

yes, but most of its adherents lack the intellectual means to do so: I admire those who try to reform Islam (or ex-Muslims), but they are a minority of intelligent, educated people, often ostracized by their own community.

Plus most Muslims *want* the original thing. Nothing less.

What did the reformation of Christianity bring? Wars. You'd just create a new sect at war with the others.

Pic semi-related.

the original thing isn't original, it's a saudi fabricated innovation

can you imagine what would happen if one of these walked through islamic countries?

can you even imagine what might happen if she stripped down and shit on the rock inside the dome of the rock? holy fuck people would lose their minds

...

I mean they want the anti-modern thing, the non-modernity friendly thing.

...

early christian were cucks that wouldn't lift a finger to save their beloved ones
early (and late) muslim were alpha

ftfy

it was already reformed by turk sages 1000 year ago. look up sufism etc

and rightfully so

christianity is losing exactly because it refuses to fight back

modernity is a mistake

when the commies destroyed the empire, they called it modern and progress

BBW is Gods Turtles are hurting her :