Taxation is not necessarily theft

If the tax is voluntary, then it is not theft. If you know a transaction will be taxed, and you voluntarily engage in the transaction, then you cannot claim the gov't stole your property. You implicitly consent to the tax by voluntarily engaging in a taxable exchange.

Also, in the United States, not all exchanges are taxable events.

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Its fucking theft when I'm paying 40% of my money to a government that then literally hands it to refugees, welfare, and foreign countries. Since when did donations become voluntary?
Fuck Canada so much I cannot even begin to describe my hatred for this place.

did someone force you to work for pay that would be taxed? did you know before getting the job that the pay would be taxed?

consenting to a shitty deal does not equal theft (it equals stupidity on your part)

>If the tax is voluntary, then it is not theft. If you know a transaction will be taxed, and you voluntarily engage in the transaction, then you cannot claim the gov't stole your property. You implicitly consent to the tax by voluntarily engaging in a taxable exchange.
Yes, you can, because the tax is mandatory

The "choice" between not having money and having a job is not really a choice, it's a gun to the head

>implying there is any job in which you won't be taxed on in this country
That is retarded reasoning.

the tax is mandatory, but the exchange that is being taxed is voluntary

>choice between no money and a job
you create a false dilemma; there are other options (also, not all jobs are taxed)


have you ever met someone paid in cash? is that really able to be taxed?

im guessing this is bait.

>have you ever met someone paid in cash? is that really able to be taxed?
Do you not know what tax evasion is?
If the government finds out you are not reporting taxable income they will fine you and/or put you in jail.
Again, this is not a choice.
I do agree there should be some taxes but the amount to which the Canadian population is taxed is unfair and absurd. One person should not have to pay more than 10% of his money to taxation.

"Able to be taxed"... the law requires you to report and pay tax on cash income if it goes over a certain amount.

not even; taxation is theft is a dumbass meme and its logically false.. this post highlights these points (taxation can be theft, but it is not necessarily theft)

Ok I'll bite. Where does the authority to levy a tax on a transaction come from?

taxation for redistributionism is theft

>self reporting
how will they know? (pro tip: they wont)

In our country? The constitution

In our case we "redistribute" it to dindus and sand people.

ONLY IF it is done so without consent

You are still under threat of property confiscation. This post is about whether or not something voluntary is taking place so debating your point any further is an unuseful complication.

Do you really think the IRS is that stupid?
If they find out you have a house, car, land, etc with no reportable income or no taxed paid do you think they're just going to ignore you?
They will investigate you. There is no way to not be taxed. Jesus you're retarded.

>no way to not be taxed
how many homeless are in America? What are they taxed on?

I understand the spirit of your point, but it technically incorrect. Seek the truth.

lol, you fucking retard

NOTHING is untaxed in Europe. So we either "consent" or starve

A consensual tax is called a PAYMENT you boot licking inbred subhuman mongoloid

Are gifts of food taxed? if a person gives a starving person a loaf of bread, will that transaction be taxed?

So by your own explanation taxation isn't theft because it is constitutional. Has nothing to do with knowing whether or not a transaction is taxed before making it somehow making it into voluntary. The concept of compulsory levying of the tax/extra cost in order to do business in the first place is super ordinate to the decision to make the exchange.

Compare it to a local mafia threatening to burn your business down if you don't pay them. Maybe the first payment is aggression... but if they inform you that they will be back weekly to collect more and you then don't sell your business and leave... Does that make future payments voluntary?

>either starve to death or be taxed
That's a great point there you have made me see the light oh my god all these years living in the shadows!

You have not understood my point, I'll try to explain in different words since you may have some learning disability..

Taxation isn't necessarily theft. Theft requires a taking of another's property without his consent. If the person being taxed CONSENTS to the tax, then it is not theft. Consent can be given explicitly or implicitly. What I am highlighting in this post is consent by implication. For example, if you know a certain transaction will be taxed if you engage in it, and then you engage in that transaction, then it is implied that you have consented to the tax.

Your hypothetical is an example of extortion, and not of taxation and therefore does not apply here.

listen dumbass, first homeless people go everyday without starving to death, is it done via magic? second, I'm simply highlighting the logical fallaciousness of the meme "Taxation is theft"

Yes. t. Merkel

Protection fee isn't necessarily theft. Theft requires a taking of another's property without his consent. If the person being offered protection CONSENTS to the fee, then it is not theft. Consent can be given explicitly or implicitly. What I am highlighting in this post is consent by implication. For example, if you know a certain business will be offered protection if you engage in it, and then you engage in that deal, then it is implied that you have consented to the fee.

You're right that my example can't be perfect because it is a unique relationship.

You and the shop you are doing business with can't freely decide to transact without paying the required fees/taxes without being subject to violence. That situation as a closed system can't be described as voluntary. The added piece of information that "the tax is constitutional" definitely changes the situation but THAT is the part that changes the nature of voluntary / involuntary. Not your consent in the moment to make a purchase.

Specifically I'm not saying taxation is theft. But I am saying your reasoning is flawed here.

HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA

*BREATHES IN*

HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA

No. It's always theft.

If someone wants to open a shop in the US they know they will be subject to various taxes. No one forces them to open a shop. Similarly, if you go to a shop to make a purchase, you know that transaction will be subject to various taxes. No one forces them to make the purchase.

Purely voluntary exchange made with the knowledge that taxes will be imposed.

ok.. i don't consent

But they do force them to close the shop if they won't pay the tax.

>Is taxation theft?
Yes.

Any questions? It's a simple concept. If you force someone to give you their money that makes you a theif.

You can dress it up and call it something different, but you are forcing someone to give you their money AKA theft.

This triggers burgers who don't understand they are being ripped off.

dude stahhp you're just making it worse for yourself every time you post

>Taxation is not necessarily theft

When the quality of public services reach extreme depths tax is robbery

if taxation isn't theft then what is it? Checkmate.

The bigger picture is that inflation is theft.

Oh no, it's retarded

Wrong. because the free market can come up for a solution for that, and nobody forces you to inflate your currency.

Social contract. If you don't like it you have the option of going off-grid and living alone in the mountains or something. I don't want to live that kind of life, even if I think that taxes are too high. I'll support politicians who want to lower taxes to a more reasonable level, but ancaps and mem-tier libertarians can fuck off.

You're right, its not theft if there is consent. The problem is that you are forced to consent in order to buy the necesseties to live.

Untill you can opt out of tax, and therefore the services it provides, it will always be theft.

That's fine, no one is forcing you to. But the minute you engage in an exchange which is taxable, you have consented to the tax by implication

that's likely the result, depending on the specific facts of the case. however, when they opened the shop they did so knowing they'd be subject to taxation

Yes, if you force someone to give you money that is theft. However, if you say, "If you engage in certain conduct, like buying a car, you will be taxed on the transaction," then there is an opportunity for the person to choose not to pay that particular tax.

>Any questions?
Why are ancaps so retarded and incapable of rational thought?

>Not all jobs are taxed.
Not until they get audited, and forced to pay tax.

Homeless people all of America do not pay any tax.

dude that's literally retarded.
>I am willing to be ripped off and stolen from because they might spend some of that money on me if i'm a good boy

Or you could just spend your own money and let the free market decide. Are you admitting you are stupid and someone else knows how to spend your money better than you do?

>you are forced to consent in order to buy the necessities to live.
This isn't true, though.
Or, if it is true, it wouldn't be the government's fault, it'd be the market's.

Do auditors, in your fantasy world, have omniscience?

The mountains are owned by the state. The social contract is a fantasy, you agree to live by the state's rules or be incarcerated.

Yeah and if I breath in and somone tries to tax me for breathing it's also theft. Checkmate.

How is this not rational?
If someone taxes you and you don't want to pay them, it's theft.

I have proposed this time and time again. People are asking the questions in the wrong order. The correct order would be:

1) Is it useful?
2) Is it feasible?
3) Is it moral?

These questions gradually decline in importance. If something is moral or not is the icing on the cake, not the main concern.

>Are you admitting you are stupid and someone else knows how to spend your money better than you do?
The primitive ancap chimpanzee takes his first steps towards civilization.

If I am making a private transaction with a business, but there is a sales tax that said business must pay and therefore cant charge less than the tax amount, then there is not a total freedom of trade. The business and I should be able to agree to a price without any outside involuntary limitations.

ok, I thought ancaps were memes but the arguments against them are even funnier
fuck it, taxation is theft
any madmax tier off road heroin dealers want to show me some books to read, ancapistan sounds like fun

That's a terrible argument.
>If you know that the moment you step outside to go get food so that you don't starve to death the man with a gun will put it to your head a demand $20, and you decide to go get food, then obviously you have consented to it, ergo it is not theft.

It's not, though.
I don't "want" to go to work in the morning, but I'll get fired if I don't.
Does that mean I'm enslaved?

No they have people who come and check your books and find out how many employees are being paid. This is standard shit. Don't be difficult on purpose. Just say taxation is theft, but there's some legitimate ways we can utilize taxation. It's not that hard.

*blocks your path*
IS TAXATION THEFT?

Your logic works for sales tax, and maybe property tax, but explain how income tax is not theft

Show me how i can print my own money and get away with it and i will happily do so. Until then only international central banks like the BIS make those decisions, and have their fingers on the spigots. It's only at their go-ahead that the money supply is increased. Naturally, their friends get it fist, when it's actually worth something. By the time it filters down to you and me it has transmogrified into National Debt.

>a sales tax that said business must pay and therefore cant charge less than the tax amount
Explain the part where the transaction is required to use the currency printed, legislated, and taxed by the government.

Dude that's not an argument. That's like saying you are a slave to breathing.

Oh man the free market and all that freedom and not stealing from you. Dude it's a better system in literally every way but you don't understand it.

Why do people perpetually vote against their interests hoping for change that never comes. This is an actual new fresh idea that will fix everything.

I got a good one, lets compare this to private theft:
If my mafia extorts all the businesses in an area, that's ok because they consented to being on my turf

>He doesn't know how to order a pizza

That would also be theft. Seems like a difficult concept for you to grasp. check and mate.

It's ok I wouldn't expect leaf education to understand ancap, you guys are literally brainwashed socialists.

>I don't "want" to go to work in the morning, but I'll get fired if I don't.
Does that mean I'm enslaved?

>I don't "want" to eat to survive
>Does this mean I'm enslaved?

fucking kys yourself

What if the delivery guy has a gun tho?

Well you have a tautology here. You've defined voluntary as "things that you do in addition to the things that you must do because if you don't do them you will be subject to violence" and then called paying/requiring sales tax as voluntary.

The intellectually honest thing to do is say it is required by the social contract.

My bad, didn't know your flag was larp
carry on friend

Continuing since the last stupid ancap thread died before I could reply.
Likening nature forcing you to work to the government forcing you to pay taxes is still a false equivalency and still entirely due to your conflating negative and positive liberties.

>You're just talking about two different ways of saying what is essentially the same thing. Dying of old age could be described as 'nature killing/claiming a victim'
It's not. Killing is active, dying is passive. There must be an agent for an ethical evaluation to be possible. You can't ethically judge the erosion of a cliff through the ages, just like you cannot judge a person's dying of old age. There is no action, no decision made, and no intent for you to judge. It's merely an event. When the state tells you to pay up or else, there is an agent. You can judge the actions of the government on an ethical basis. When you stop working, nobody comes for you. Nothing happens. The only thing you can judge here is your decision. You cannot ethically indict nature.

So no, "nature is oppressing me", is not an argument.

fellow ancap I salute you.
Put on your flag to represent our movement xD

>People are only capable of living by selling their labor to an employer in a place of business in exchange for a wage

I am convinced that ancaps are subhuman.

>The "choice" between not having money and having a job is not really a choice, it's a gun to the head
So leave and go live in a nation that has no taxes. Or make your own.

I'm sure your nation will prosper with all the rights, services, protections and obligations of a government without any taxes collected.

>Gets defeated in argument
>I-I-I you are larping so I win

Nice non-argument attempt to save yourself. Didn't work.

that's more than you can do faggot

Then RIP
hope you get a better spawn next time

>can't come up with an argument
>YOUR SUBHUMAN

White supremacists don't understand basic logic, so they are afraid of AnCap.

I am telling you that you don't control your money supply, that's all.
And the smugness does you no favours in winning converts to your way of thinking

Theft would be if you didn't get anything in return. You do get infrastructure, safety services, in other countries people also get healthcare and higher education. It's not theft, it's forced business, and it's forced for a reason - you cannot live without those (try, if you don't believe me) and you want them/ Now, whether the price is fair or not is up to discussion, but to claim this is theft is retarded and that's what anti-tax-fags are - retards.

You believe tax is theft? Walk through the forest and swamp to grocery store. Break a leg and don't call medical assistance. Set your house on fire, stay in it and shoot firemen coming to help you (ok, I was kidding, don't do that. Or just give warning shots). Or simply die.

...

>White supremacists
Actually offended

>Explain the part where the transaction is required to use the currency printed, legislated, and taxed by the government.
What? Was that not implied in the OP I responded too? I think youve mistaken me for the larper ITT.

Sharia Blue OY VEY

>If you know a transaction will be taxed, and you voluntarily engage in the transaction, then you cannot claim the gov't stole your property.

It's illegal to engage in non-taxed transactions though, or it's regulated by the state. If it wasn't I'd agree.

That's like having someone holding a gun up to your head and saying "okay I'll take half of your money every month, you do consent to it, right?"
It's nearly impossible to make a living outside of the system. And if you do that means you're already living outside of it.

What smugness? You mean by having a superior argument? Sorry, that's just life when you are dealing with ideas of the future against outdated ideas of the past.

It's theft if you're involuntarily living under the government taxing you.

North Korean taxation is theft because most people can't leave. They're not voluntarily agreeing to live within the borders of the state that's taxing them.

What the OP is saying is the opposite, it's not required; and the fact that people are willingly using the currency that's taxed is what makes it not theft.

did I strike a nerve?

No, North Korean taxation is theft because all taxation is theft. How many times do I have to explain this to you before you understand?

>Snakebaiting this hard
You think you can come to a board full of Libertarians, and have a centrist view on taxation? Are you a fucking imbecile?

yeah duude, but it's theft that gets OP his NEETbux
so it's not theft

Who else thinks the military should be crowd-sourced and crowd-funded?

Fuck me, then pay my taxes. youtu.be/whlHvpnxOD0

>It's illegal to engage in non-taxed transactions
So that time I mowed my neighbor's lawn as a kid and he gave me a candy bar, a crime was being committed?

If the transfer of wealth is by voluntary agreement, it's not theft by definition.

Riiiight. YOU'Re gonna take over the future. I dont even disagree with you ya wackjob. All i'm saying is, there is an even bigger ripoff inflation, and it's international. Sure, governments extort their people through taxes. But internationals extort governments. You'll see it someday.

If you implicitly consent to a taxation on a sales transaction, you implicitly consent to an income transaction. There are both transactions.

Unless you are personally defending your own claim of property rights with your own weaponry, you are implicitly consenting to taxation so that your property rights exist.

Yeah, of course. You didn't know that? Then again, I don't know what I expected with that flag.

If I rob you of $50 and for some reason decide to give $5 back, it is still theft. If I steal your car, but bring it back intact and with the tank filled, it's still theft. "Forced business" is theft. You're forcibly seizing someone's assets, whether you offer something in return doesn't in any way change that. It hinges entirely on the lack of consent which you admit. You can't on an ethical basis argue for taxes with the presupposition of all forms of theft being wrong; taxation is theft.

Now, you can absolutely argue that presupposition itself because as you say taxes do end up doing a hell of a lot of good.