I've just checkmated all atheists

I've just checkmated all atheists

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>EVIL EXISTS: Yes
>Can God prevent the evil?: Yes
>Does God want to prevent the evil?: Yes
>Does God know about the evil?: Yes
>Then why does evil exist? Because we commit it.

Why doesn't he stop it?

If God was to clean up after our mess every time, he could us well create golems, not humans.
He made us human though because he wants us to have our free will and be masters of ourselves.
He told us this is evil and this is good, you be good or be fucked. The rest is up to us.
And that is true love, true wisdom and true power right here.

Because we keep doing it

If you belive God and Free Will is true, then it's your fault doing evil.
If you belive God and Free Will is not true, then what the fuck are you complaining about?

You can't have it both ways. Belive there's God but you don't have free will. I mean you can, but your meaning of God would differ alot from the meaning humanity has tried to tinker up since forever.

I believe in God but are you familiar with Terror Management Theory? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory

What if God is a cute girl who isn't aware that she is God? Didn't think about that shit now did you?

retarded graph. i ended up at god is not all-loving.

he doesnt prevent shit at evil.

A universe without free will would have neither good nor evil.
Why did God create evil? So that there could be good.

>If God was to clean up after our mess every time, he could us well create golems, not humans
Why doesn't he?
>He made us human though because he wants us to have our free will and be masters of ourselves.
As long as we submit to god.
>He told us this is evil and this is good, you be good or be fucked. The rest is up to us.
The concepts of "good" and "evil" are entirely subjective with no intrinsic value. While there are some obvious acts of righteousness such as donating to the poor because you wanted to, and acts maliciousness such as murdering without remorse, when you look at entire event in detail, it becomes difficult to distinguish good from evil.

Not an answer.
"Hey, buddy, why don't you stop your kids from beating the shit out of each other?"
"Because they keep doing it."

>Why did God create evil?
>Freewill

>But if you trigger God long enough you are condemned to Hell.

Perfect example of western mentality.
Also, """"FREEDUHMS"""

>Could God have created a universe without free will that also maintains free will at the same time?
>No
>God is not all-powerful
Great logic.

That's what the entire Bible is about. The start of the book in Genesis is about when evil came about. The end of Revelation is about evil ending. Everything in between is was the plan to stop it, the way to not be evil, carving out a base of operations on Earth, the balancing of scales, the evidence that evil was wrong, showing what is good, and telling people to get ready for when evil will be wiped out.
To us, it's like all of history. But from the way that the Bible describes how God views time, it's been about a week since the rebellion started. Which we allowed because he knew it would end well in a bout a week and then the rest of history forever after would be free of it.

*which he allowed
(bad typo)

>could god have created a universe without evil, but with free will
"Nothing logically contradictory falls within the purview of God's omnipotence."
t. St. Aquinas

>What if God is a cute girl who isn't aware that she is God?

Atheists believe in evil (so there's a problem of evil) and in moral relativism and a non-sentient indifferent universe (whoops now there's no evil) at the same time.
Why are atheist arguments always so fucking retarded?

IDK, why do you feel the need to strawman others?

Atheists believe in evil.
When religious people say evil they make it out to be some cosmic force that causes bad stuff to happen. In a secular viewpoint evil really is just living creatures doing things that due to social and evolutionary reasons we see as negative.

Killing innocents is evil, because we have evolved to value human life, because doing so allowed our species to grow. Where do you need to make evil out as some cosmic force there? Or insight a God to prove its existence?

That's what most of them say. If you're personally not a tard it doesn't apply to you.
>In a secular viewpoint evil really is just living creatures doing things that due to social and evolutionary reasons we see as negative.
>living creatures do things
>we have an opinion about it
>therefore god doesn't exist

I never said that PROVES god doesnt exist, I just said that there was no need to use a god to explain how evil came about

that's what the problem of evil is though

But then your argument of, "if God is real why doesnt he stop evil" doesnt work
You dont even think the same type of evil exists, and when pretending you do you also dont realize that humanity cannot understand morality as God.
Eh, its a different sort of evil. If God is real, evil is much eviler, if that makes sense to you.

>evil really is just living creatures doing things that due to social and evolutionary reasons we see as negative.
So if you do something and I see it as negative, is it evil? Or does it depend only on you?

If god exists, why do infidels fuck your qt3.141581 with their superior cocks?

Lain is too pure for this sinful board, user.

My point is that if you view, as most atheists do, evil as things that humans find negative because if social and evolutionary reasons, then there is no need for a god to be involved. It is only when you start discussing this idea of cosmic evil that manifests itself into creatures causing them to do bad things that you need a god.

The reason these debates go nowhere is atheists talk about a secular evil, and the religious talk about this ethereal evil that has existed forever so its basically just a big strawman from both sides

There is no evil. Only varying degrees of edginess/ambition/desire.

God doesn't exist.

Checkmate faggot.

Exactly! I don't believe that evil really exists. Evil only exists because we have evolved to look negatively on certain actions. If anything your point here supports a secular morality more than a religious one, as people disagree all the time over what is evil, whereas if this idea of cosmic evil existed the line between evil and not would seem a lot more defined

Why don't you stop insects from killing each other?

Why can't God simply not care? It's the atheists that are living in the fairy-tale, because they think God has to be exactly how they envision God.

So the atheist secular view of evil has nothing to do with god.
But atheists use the problem of evil as an argument against god.
Evil has something and nothing to do with god at the same time, according to atheists.
This is exactly the issue I was talking about.
You guys have to decide which it is and stop switching it around.

Okay, so atheists are amoral by nature and only follow societal expectations. Thanks. I've been arguing with some other atheist who argued the opposite.

You have just proved my point about these debates being a strawman vs strawman.

I dont believe that morality proves or disproves god, as I said in a previous post, I think this has nothing to do with God at all.

So god is not omnipotent?

Pretty much yes, everything we do is shaped by evolution, genetics, and society. I think if you really dug down then you might see the same for yourself. Even if you follow the bible for morality, you are still following other human beings words which would still count as a societal factor.

To be clear though, what I mean is that our moral compass is shaped by these factors, so even if it was societally accepted to murder babies, as my moral compass is against this I would find it evil. Just because morality is shaped by society doesn't mean you are in constant agreement with it

The problem is most people don't understand what it means when Christians say God knows us and knows what we will do. He knows what choices we COULD take, He knows the possibilities, but because we have free will, that introduces chaos He can't predict.
It's like a teacher giving a student a multiple choice test. The teacher knows the answers the student could give but cannot know which choice the student could give. Our free will blinds God to our future actions. He can have a plan but He can't include our choices in his plan. While that means, in some manner, that God is not in fact all-knowing, it also demonstrates his patience and grace. He could force us to choose the correct choices and stick to his plan. Instead, He loves us enough to give us the free will He Himself has because otherwise we would be slaves and our love for our Father would not be genuine.

>I dont believe
well OP does
and it doesn't need you to believe in it to be true

Don't you see? God is the only will. Let me explain.

We don't have free will because we don't get choose who we are or where we are born. Nothing in the universe gets to choose what it is and therefore free will can't exist anywhere. Except the will itself, the will itself has always existed, it necessarily had to otherwise there would be nothing. God is the will. We are part of god because we have will, so are the planets and everything around us.

It doesn't matter what OP thinks when we are having a discussion and you are arguing against my points.

No atheist who is not a raging tard, will say they have proof against god.

In this example it is usually the religious who say, "the existence of evil proves God exists" and atheists reply "well I think that this evil could exist without a god"

I am not saying a secular evil disproves god, I am just saying that because I can see evil forming in a secular manner, that I don't see evil as a good argument for god

>some things are pre-determined therefore we don't have free will
what a retarded argument. you should read hegel, he has a similar theory to yours

The problem of evil is a Christian problem, not an argument against the existence of God.

Atheists of the "the universe consists of atoms and atoms alone" persuasion, by definition cannot believe in objective morality. As such, there is no thing as objective evil, only interpretations of events as being "evil", just like I can interpret a painting as being beautiful, while someone else can interpret it as being ugly. The problem of evil presupposes a Christian conception of morality so atheists cannot use it without proving the Christian's point that objective morality exists.

Evil is a concept created by humans. Moral is hardcoded on our DNA since babies and other animals are capable of noticing what is right and what is wrong. Morality is necessary for species to survive. It makes us help each other and work together. In some cases moral is different or it can chance depending your surroundings, situation, culture and how you were raised up.

why is it retarded?

How is he even implying that? Omnipotence doesn't have anything to do with whether God gives a shit about what we do or not.

>if God doesn't prevent evil he isn't all loving
Shit that happens on earth, natural disasters, murders etc is nothing on the big picture. Suffering is harsh and horrible(obviously no one knows what happens in after life) but you may look at it differently from there
>an all-knowing God would have already known.....
He knows, he want you to know. Learning by discovery

You've got no start point. The argument is running around in circles.

Much like belief in a god really

But if someone were to kill your family and burn your house down, that'd be bad right? Evil? The truth is that the Bible is a rulebook on how to live in a society peacefully, and sometimes, go to war in the name of self preservation.
The fact that societal good and societal bad exist objectively means that good and evil exist objectively.
The reason they exist objectively is because we need to devour live to sustain life. In this world we're playing on hardcore mode and have to compete and fight against things that want our stuff and our food. - Rules that according to the bible didn't exist before the fruit, and wont exist after the fall.

I was arguing against OP. Thread is about the problem of evil.
You respond to me saying that's not what you mean by evil. But I don't really care what you mean by evil outside the context of OP and problem of evil, which is why it matters what OP thinks.

>atheists reply "well I think that this evil could exist without a god"
>I don't believe that evil really exists
Does evil exist or not?
If it doesn't then neither does the problem of evil.
If it does but only as moral relativism in atheist minds then neither does them problem of evil.
Only if it exists as cosmic evil does the problem of evil exist, but then it's a completely different problem to what OP thinks anyway.

t.retard on two fronts

Atheists arn't amoral, they're often dogmatic moralists. Many athiests are fanatics for egalitarianism. Many athiests are insecure about being "immoral" so they push what they believe to be moral extra hard.
>inb4 not all athiests
Yes, some are based like Nietzsche. Most, however, are not.

...

because it is illogical? you're trying to make it seem like we could only have free will if we had some sort of character select screen where we got to choose where we are born... first of all, you can't know if you didn't get to choose that. secondly, there is no reason to even think this in the first place; it's like saying 'well the first two coin tosses were heads therefore every subsequent coin toss will also be heads'. it's just as plausible that you don't have control over some things but you have control over others. read hegel

Okay, I see now that I was actually quite unclear in my writing

I don't believe in cosmic evil as described by religion

However, I do believe that evil exists only because humans perceive it, and consequently evil is very subjective

The problem again all comes down to the fact that atheists and religious people aren't even talking about the same thing, OP's point which may be a compelling argument for you is worthless to me and many other atheists who can see evil arising in a secular manner, I feel like we are just talking past each other, because every time I make this point you say that I think evil exists and doesn't at the same time

Every tiny detail leading up to your birth was decided upon by you so that you could be you? That seems unlikely. Also who would it be that does the choosing?

Every decision we make is influenced by our genes and our environment. What you like, what you don't like. If we didn't get choose our genes and environment then how can there be a 'free will'.

We have control over nothing. Not to say we can't do anything but any decision we make is a result of things outside of our control.

I don't understand the coin toss argument.

You are presupposing objective morality, not proving it. Someone might burn my house down and I might call it an evil act. But in the secular worldview, all that happens was that some atoms did this and that, reacted in this or that way, and my house burned down. This is the secular worldview: atoms doing stuff. No room for morality except in silly, semantic, "not real" "interpretations" or shallow judgments.

>But if someone were to kill your family and burn your house down, that'd be bad right? Evil?

You need to answer WHY this would be evil. Is it evil because I wouldn't like it? Because I would be sad or angry? Or because there exists some kind of objective idea about good or evil, perhaps innate in all humans?

But God is just ideal male mate as the omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent man on the top of the dominance hierarchy, created by years of natural selection and hypergamy.
Interestingly enough, God is the master of good/order and evil/chaos but also represents good/order while Satan/Devil represents evil/chaos.
It's as if order is a prerequisite for chaos, for example, you need to have a box first to think outside of it.
So to become the ultimate man you have to become good but also master evil and we always value good above evil.
This is seen in the constant cycle of good and evil and return to the status quo of good/order.
God is both good and good and evil.

>Every tiny detail leading up to your birth was decided upon by you so that you could be you?
dude what. i don't think you could deal with hegel on second thought

I got to "well shit" everytime i try this what am i doing wrong?

Your arguments are weak. You talked about 'a character selection screen' that was in response to that.

>Working within the 'Problem of Evil' frame
W
E
W

The fact that everyone agreed that there is one God totally changed the game. Human brains gravitate towards hierarchical structures, and preventing a human from assuming the position at the top is what got is this far. Our ancestors fought to the death for this shit. The people paying the shills to infest this board want atheism to prevail for their own ends. They do not want to fear an entity higher than themselves. Find a way to serve the one true God user (and remember kek was invoked as his servant). The last thousand years would have played out very differently had the élites gotten their way in this matter.

Do you know what the problem of evil is?
>unclear
no I think you're pretty clear
The evil in the problem of evil and evil according to atheists are different.
The problem is that if OP's point relies on the actual existence of cosmic evil, it can only be compelling if you believe in cosmic evil.
But most atheists will take OP's point as compelling (because they believe in secular evil) without realising they have to commit to cosmic evil as well.
>I think evil exists and doesn't at the same time
If it's only secular relative in-your-opinion evil it's not evil existing, it's you having the opinion that something is evil.
Evil only exists if it's cosmic evil.

dude your entire premise is based on like ten assumptions. your argument is literally 'i didn't get to choose something therefore no free will'. there is nothing sensible in your understanding at all.
>first assumption
you're assuming that you didn't get to pick 'who' you were born as
>second assumption
you're assuming that because you might not have gotten to choose 'who' you are born as that you can't choose anything. how you cannot understand the coin toss point, i don't know. your choices are limited to perspective all the time, just because you can't choose to fly suddenly doesn't disprove free will.
>third assumption
you're assuming that because you might not have free will that free will cannot exist anywhere. how you arrive at this conclusion out of nowhere is beyond me.
>fourth assumption
you're assuming nothing in the universe gets to choose what it is when you're completely limited to anecdotal evidence.

Literally just off the top of my head, i could go through the rest but it isn't worth my time. don't read hegel

>God is a hateful bigot for not robbing me of my free will.

You're only accounting for human evil not natural evil you Turk roach rape baby.

>natural evil
what does that mean?
when there's wind and a tree falls down is it evil?

You're all equally stupid, religious low IQ morons and ignorant atheists

no you're equally stupid

This chart is based on a lot of assumptions. This doesn't conclude to anything. Show atheist real evidence that god exist, not a bunch of assumptions.

Sure got me there, mindreader

Why do Europeans care about Yaweh and jewish traditions?

>freewill exists, therefore you can commit evil acts
>Why doesn't he just take away your freewill

No thanks.

your flow chart is bad and you should feel bad

You can't have good without evil, by definition. Get rid of all evil in the world and relativity will create new evil. This chart is retarded.

The chart is really poorly made, you can't tell how it begins at all.
Also, it assumes that Satan is the root cause of all evil. That is only one interpretation.

I think you just pick a place to start, but the chart still doesn't answer any questions. It's nothing but assumptions.

>He made us human though because he wants us to have our free will


How exactly can we have free will if God is omnipotent and knows the result of all our actions though? A popular verse and talking point is that God knew the name were and the details of every human's life before he even created the universe. If that's true, doesn't that mean we aren't free to act, but that everything is predetermined?


Didn't Adam and Eve only gain free will after eating forbidden fruit? Fruit that they didn't really understand was forbidden at the time, because the concept of disobedience was foreign to them?

If we have free will and angels don't, doesn't that mean that Lucifer was forced to rebel?