If God made me and knows every action that I'll take, how exactly do I have free will?
If God made me and knows every action that I'll take, how exactly do I have free will?
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God doesn't know every action you'll take, but rather the probabilities of all the possible options.
God may know which action you're most likely to take, but ultimately, the decision is yours.
god isn't real
So God isn't omniscient alright cool, thanks for clearing that up.
God knows what actions you will do at this very moment, and if you continie your trajectory, every action you will do in every other following moment. However, chsnging this trajectpry will make god see all of actions in the trajectory. So you do have the choice to change your future by changing what you do in a specific moment, but that choice changes what you will do in following moments, which god will know. However. At anytime you can change the trajectory you follow, and god will still know everything you can do on that path, which you can change at any time.
god probably isn't real bud
But god knew you were going to change trajectories when he created the universe, so ultimately he knew already where you would end up
Wouldn't you changing trajectory be apart of your trajectory? No one makes such a change in an instant.
>probably
There's the keyword right there.
God isn't even real, probably. But you can say it also on a scientific view on world. Everything that happens in the world is just a chemical reaction, your brain is full of reactions and so on something happens and your brain responds based on its informations which gives you the same answer. No free will at all.
Do you know what God knows?
Do you know what free will is?
If you know the answer to those two questions, then you know you have free will.
>Light is a chemical reaction.
I can understand that viewpoint. There is a difference between these two scenarios, though. In one there is an afterlife that you'll spend eternity in based upon the actions that you (presumably) had no say in.
Unhelpful :(
Allah did not predetermine your actions but rather the events which happen to you during your lifetime. He may change his plan whenever he deems appropriate, depending on how you behave. If you're a good person, he'll be merciful. If you're a bad person, you will be punished.
>flag
I love this board
Light is radiation which is produced by sources of energy through particle reactions and bounces off of objects. When your eyes pick up on the radiation your brain detects it and perceives the radiation as "light". Light is a chemical construct brought on by our organic sensors so yes it is a chemical reaction as the concept of light only exists due to our biological mechanisms responsible for vision. If we saw in Infrared only our concept of "light" would be perceived infrared radiation.
Because they are still your choices, brainlet.
>implying God interferes
Intervention is not always good
How can they be his choices if his future is already known by God? If he really had any choice God wouldn't know the future.
Because your choices will split you into the infinite number of universes of possibilities, of which god knows them all.
Knowing and controlling are 2 very different things.
Exactly^ God knowing the future and giving you free will are not mutually exclusive.
Omniscience and free will aren't contradictory.
Him making you is only against free will if you believe his creation of you to be deterministic.
If God makes a person the way they are with the knowledge of their actions, can you control your actions since he made it so that you would make those actions?
Then why does God allow for people to exist that ultimately will face eternal punishment by him if he cares about mankind?
Everything is deterministic if he knows and created all...
>Everything is deterministic if he knows and created all...
No.
If you know you're going to (You) my post it doesn't mean you're not doing it of your free will. And if you create a toothbrush it doesn't mean you have control over it either. Neither creation nor omniscience are inherently significant of a lack of free will.
such a moot point. You can't rectify free will and have God be omniscient. It lliterally doesn't work, even if you say he "only knows the chances of all possible outcomes"
That barely even makes fucking sense. He would still have foreknowledge of all your decisions in life, therefore nullifying free will
God is definitely not real. Why don't you apply that shit logic to all things you have zero evidence for? Like unicorns
You don't. You have the option to accept Christ or you reject Him. People had this decision before Him and they almost always fucked it up. Have faith. Be recognised and meek. Golden rule.
You are right, creation nor omniscience are inherently significant of a lack of free will on their own, I agree.
Its when a being has both as (supposedly) God does when free will is compromised. If you create something with knowledge of its actions before its creation, then you have determined that things fate.
If we're arguing on the premise that God is real (I believe He is btw), then you'll have to submit that God, by definition, is a perfect being and weighed out your life in a fair manner. He didn't make you to fail, He made you in a fair way, where you went with it was your choices. The fact that He knew you'd fail doesn't take away from anything. It was still your choices.
Think of it like a fortune-teller that can see the future. They can see the future, but not necessarily control it.
And for what it's worth, God is described to weep for the souls that turn away from the light.
That's like saying the only roads that exist are the ones you drive on, and that it didn't exist before you drove on it.
The Calvinists had exactly this sort philosophy, and eventually came to the conclusion that they should just do good stuff to prove they were already blessed. They subverted their own fatalism.
The fortune teller didn't create me, though.
Creation doesn't mean lack of free will but foreknowledge definitely does. Why would you even entertain the idea of a God who doesn't know the future? He knows just as much as I do? Fuck him then
By trying to be righteous? If I admit I'll never come close to understanding the future plan of God (which I won't) then I have no shame in saying we have no free will. How was the fall of man, free will? People say God wants us to love Him freely but I don't see that. I only see to love Him. I don't need to put strings on or explain away that love
The road analogy itself is flawed because (as I was trying to convey) changing your life isn't as simple has taking a left turn. Life is more like an infinitely long singlular road that you control the curvature of, cm by cm. No one just wakes up and changes their life, they fought, thought, and contemplated. Every thought you have is an action and every action a cm on that road.
I know. In truth, I didn't want to use that example because fortune-tellers are by definition sinful. But it's a slight comparison in how God sees the future of the choices He gives you.
Again, God is a perfect being. The choices He gave you and how your life was measured were fair. You are not unjustly thrown into Hellfire. What kind of God would He be if He did that?
No. That's still not necessarily true based on the properties of the Godtraits. Omniscience literally means that he could create something knowing its entire life, but not have determined its entire life because his knowledge is independent of involvement. He just knows all of the choices it is going to make.
Foreknowledge doesn't preclude free will.
That logic is only sound if the creator had no knowledge of the creations fate before he created it, otherwise, the creator had a choice in which fate the creation would have.
Because you're going to die. The path you choose to go there is up to you.
>That logic is only sound if the creator had no knowledge of the creations fate before he created it
No, not at all. His actions aren't determining the fate of the creation, its actions are.
The ONLY way this is deterministic is if he designs the creation to take those actions.
Death isn't your fate, heaven or hell is.
God by definition has ultimate knowledge on what is Just and True. If He created you in a fair manner and you failed, how is it His fault? He created others in like manner and they did not fail. How could He be the most fair and ultimate judge if He didn't distinguish between those that excelled and those that failed?
Again, God knowing what your choices are doesn't mean you didn't have free will.
Saying "There is no way we have free will if He knew what choices we'd make" is just not accurate at all.
exactly
He let you do it anyway.
Someone can know something yet not force it on you. This is simple logic. He didn't compell you to do it, just knew you would.
The creator must've designed the creation if he knew the creation's purpose before creating it.
'If god is all knowing, he knows what path I will choose and what the results will be. He knew it before he even began creating the universe, if he truly knows everything. Am I really making choices if the choice is already known?
----->
Yes and that doesn't then take away free will. If the creator designs the being to be free in its choices then the foreknowledge of its choices does not eliminate free will does it?
>If God made me and knows every action that I'll take, how exactly do I have free will?
This is an old, old question. Aquinas discussed this centuries ago.
The short answer is that you have free will FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE. You make choices and you suffer the consequences if those choices are bad.
someone is taking their first philosophy class
It doesn't eliminate free will for the choices that do not affect the fate of the creation. The fate is fixed, that can not change because the creator designed the creation with knowledge of that fate. The difference between making 4 lefts or 4 rights is meaningless.
>That logic is only sound if the creator had no knowledge of the creations fate before he created it, otherwise, the creator had a choice in which fate the creation would have.
You're assuming God himself has free will. Even the bible admits that there are some things God cannot do, such as lie. Athiots are always trying to bring up the supposed contradiction of evil existing while God is all-powerful. God cannot literally do ANYTHING, so their dilemma is a false one.
Help me though it then.
free will is all you need to concern yourself with, predestination is none of your business
No, it doesn't eliminate any free will for any choices. Every choice is a free action of the creation.
This is a whole 'nother can of worms, but a very interesting hypothesis. Do you believe that God could not vanquish evil if he wished to?
Think about a parent with their kid. They know their kid. They know how they will react in certain situations. They created the kid. Did they take away the kids free will?
You forget one important fact, humans are pure machines and machines do not have free will
Not trying to be rude, but a very bad analogy, a parent does not know what a child is like before they are born, nor do they have (definite) knowledge of where the child will end up in the future.
If we have free will how did God say Job will overcome? He knew Satan was being a fucking gambling retard he always is so he showed him this. He knew always what was about to happen
God doesn't exist in space time.
Yes and no.
If you consider omniscience to include knowledge of things that are impossible to know, then no, noone is omniscient.
Future isn't predetermined, probabilities of all the possible outcomes are the closest thing there is to predicting future.
God knows everything that is possible to know.
This is becoming cyclical , so try to break down my next set of statements piece by piece and spot what part you specifically don't agree with so that we can focus this argument.
A creator is preparing to create a living being (the creation). Every thing the creator makes ends up in either place 1 or place 2. The creator always knows before making the creation which place they'll end up. For this particular creation, the creator knows that the creation will go to place 1. He creates the creation. The creation goes to place 1.
Did that creation have a choice in which place it went?
Now, was there anything about the premise that you saw as incorrect?
Interesting. Do you believe that the definite future is knowledge that God can't know?
What are some other examples of knowledge that you would consider as unknowable?
Find out by killing yourself if it matters so much to you. This shit is fucking gay as hell and doesn't belong here.
>Do you believe that God could not vanquish evil if he wished to?
Right, not without violating the order already in effect. This must all play out. We must choose to serve evil or good when we think nobody is watching, and this process will make us pure (or make us fall).
Shut the fuck up heretic you have no idea what you talking about
"God’s omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense." Sovereignty and omnipotence do not confer the power to do the impossible. If God is sovereign, how can He not predetermine the destiny of each human? CS Lewis read
the Scriptures and saw a different attribute of God: “God is love." It is love, according to
Lewis, that compelled God to create humanity, and it is love that compels Him to offer free will
to the pinnacle of His earthly creation: the freedom to choose to love Him, and the freedom to engage in prideful rebellion. In The Problem of Pain, Lewis writes:
"I am going to submit that not even Omnipotence could create a society of free souls without at the same time creating a relatively independent and ‘inexorable’ Nature…. The freedom of a creature must mean freedom to choose: and choice implies the existence of things to choose between."
Writing in Mere Christianity, Lewis said:
"Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having…. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free."
What a striking statement! The happiness God desires for humanity is so great that He
voluntarily limits His sovereignty so that we may achieve it.
God knows what decisions you'll make.
He won't interfere with your free-will, however.
There is no intelligent design. And there is no free will.
Stop pretending you understand everything about god. You know fucking nothing.
Fucking christians making up shit all the time.
You have free will. God is not omniscient, that was made up later on to convince non-Christians to convert to Christianity. It was a dick swinging contest between Christians and non-Christians.
If, as it has been asserted many times by Christians, the New and Old Testament God is the same God, then the New Testament God is as demonstrably fallible as the Old Testament God. Just look at Genesis, look at the story of Adam and Eve. Yahweh didn't even know where Adam and Eve were hiding when they first clothed themselves out of shame.
God is cannot be omniscient and grant free will. This is an impossibility, and you are right to doubt their logical compatibility.
I will add, it is entirely possible that God is omniscient and you don't have free will. If that is the case, there's hardly any reason to believe in God at all, as not believing in God yields the same result with regards to free will, that is, you don't have any.
If there is no God to grant free will then all of your decisions are subject to your brain chemistry and the stimulus from the environment.
If you don't believe in free will, just be an atheist. If you do believe in free will, you must believe in a partially ignorant God.
Christianity is a joke. All religions are false. Fuck Yall.
He isn't determining your actions. You are. He just knows what you're going to do already. Which is only a problem for "free will" unless you already don't believe free will exists. Which raises the question of why you're bringing God into it. (I know you're just an internet atheist.)
He's saying that if God created everything that makes you who you are, and he knows everything, then he knows exactly what choices you will make from the second he creates you. He alone carries the responsibility of your shitty "choices". You never had a choice at all if he is all powerful and all knowing.
By the way, if you don't believe in free will, then you must believe that the fundamental basis for Law throughout every civilization EVER is completely invalid. We punish or rehabilitate citizens unless we believe they performed a particularly heinous crime OUT OF CHOICE. If they had no choice, if they were simply driven to that action through no fault of their own, what do you do? If you have no belief in free will, then what law would we follow?
Addendum, if they perform a particularly evil action (again out of choice) we simply kill them.
You don't. Free will is a myth.
Obviously a 4th, 5th, or Nth dimensional being could have prior awareness of all your future actions as he could see them as clearly as we look down the street.
However, you would still have 100% free will within the limitations of your 3 dimensional world.
In other words, God the Father can see your future, while God the Son (his 3 dimensional cross section) may not.