I'm a civic nationalist, AMA

Go on, I'm waiting. Trolls will be ignored.

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the fantasy of civic nationalism is what got us here in the first place

Are you a conservative? Or what's your political position aside from 'civic nationalism?'

Your loyalty shouldn't be to your nation, but to your nation's ideals.

We don't have a civic nationalist country. (In USA) and no I dont mean to be a
>muh real communism hasnt been tried meme
but we seriously didnt have a civic nationalist country that led to this. It was the fact that our immigrants arent nationalist at all

thats why immigration isnt as bad if they adopt the nations ideals. Mass immigration makes it harder for them to adapt to them however, because they socialize and form their own communities as a copy of were they came from and this is when it hurts a nation.

I'm very traditional and conservative. I believe that race is real. But the truth is people can be great and smart no matter the race they are from. HOWEVER, some races have more smart and better people than others.

Completely agreed.

you actually dont know what youre talking about.

When you have huge groups of immigrants together they feel like they don't have to adapt to the rest of the nation because they themselves are making the nation adapt to them. I dont support this.But thats not nationalistic at all. So its not Civic nationalism.

Good argument. Ive been enlightened.

Integration is far superior to any kind of multiculturalism.

lol, wait a while im trying to find you stuff. Unless you just want to watch all this guys videos
youtube.com/watch?v=FCqQgJ3atNU&ab_channel=AmericanRenaissance

>We don't have a civic nationalist country.
*ahem*

Alright. Then forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions, but traditionalism and conservatism generally include a belief in the fallibility of human reason and a historical, contingent view of ideas and spirit (culture). If you hold those to be true, then how do you get around the problems of a) in-group preferences built into our evolutionary human nature---which, if human reason is fallible, is a cause for irrevocable friction between different types of people; institutions and society cannot hold if intuitive feelings of distrust, bias, desire for one's own to flourish, etc. are unable to ever be eliminated, and b) if ideas and spirit are historical---for example, that Western liberal capitalist democracy isn't some truth our Founding Fathers and ancestors stumbled upon but was contingent on the French Revolution, American Revolution, ancient and Enlightenment philosophy, etc---then how can you believe immigrants from cultures without the proper history can ever properly appreciate your home country's ideals and spirit? There's a reason minorities overwhelmingly vote Democrat/leftist and descendants of Europeans mostly go Republican, and this isn't something that can ever be changed or prevented since you can't force history (see: Iraq War and the failure of democracy in the ME).

No. I agree that west is the best. "white" western ideas is what our country was founded on and the foundation it must stick to. However, immigrants can benefit our economy and nation if they bring good skills, and are good patriotic law respecting citizens. We shouldnt reject people based on the color of their skin, but on their ideology, culture, and mind sets. Thats why we shouldnt import "immigrant cultures"but people who can prove to be an asset to us and want to love and benefit America.

The reason Minorities vote dem is because, blacks for example, the most loyal base. They arent nationalist. They were stolen from their homeland and are "stuck" here now, forcefully. (yes they can go back individually but im speaking in the context of demographic). How can you expect them to love and be nationalist if they didnt want and shouldnt had been here to begin with. Civic nationalism is about nationalism based on one nation and one culture. Not about mass immigration for the sake of being diverse. Blacks like that should had been shipped out as soon as they stopped being slaves.

Have you read the chapter in Charles Murray's By The People in which he talks about Fischer's thesis in Albion's Seed that early America was actually highly culturally diverse, and the only commonality was English legal philosophy? He has these kick-ass charts for the different groups:
>The Puritans in Massachussetts: NO SEX EVER
>The Quakers in Delaware and Pennsylvania: Gentle beta matriarchal sextime, also voluntary celibacy
>The Cavaliers of the South: Unapologetic patriarchy out of a Dumas novel, or for that matter De Sade
>The Scots-Irish: neighbors complain about the nighttime noises, and visiting preachers, when they are not attacked, note that the women dress as hot as they can for the period, and come before the nuptual altar with growing bellies
Murray quotes the anti-Federalists arguing that union is impossible because the local cultures are just too different, and notes that what made it work was not a rebuttal by the Federalists on this point but the limitation of government function.
This chapter is a really great case for civic nationalism. It actually shows ethnic pride preserved and honors English legal tradition.

>It was the fact that our immigrants arent nationalists at all

Yes that is the problem, and no amount of military service or listening to the "Star Spangled Banner" will change that fact.

Immigrants assimilate over time, but never completely. As they integrate into a society, they change it. This may be slight. It may be large.

If you value nationalism so much, you would want to minimize the amount of societal change the nation experiences from immigrants. Ultimately that leads to the conclusion that race should be taken into account.

It's not that Indians, Chinese, Mexicans, and Africans can't assimilate. Its that it takes a tremendous and unrealistic amount of energy to bring them to the level of a Ben Carson. And we know that individuals like the good doctor are the exception, surrounded by thousands of other blacks who see themselves as blacks first.

My point is immigrants from truly foreign cultures cannot ever really be 'patriotic' in a real sense because they lack the necessarily historical context to understand and appreciate another nation's ideals. Take a look at the 2nd Amendment, for example. The rest of the world is baffled Americans want to own guns for they feel no need for it themselves. Why then do Americans desire the right to own guns? Because of the American Revolution and revolting against tyranny. If one cannot relate to the Founding Fathers and the people who fought in that war, then they can never truly appreciate and respect the ideals that resulted from the event. And even if we grant that some immigrants can come to relate to our nation's culture and spirit, their children and children's children won't, at least not in a substantive way.

That's exactly my point though, their perspective is set in relation to their history, aka slavery and Africa. That's why blacks in America have such a tribal and warrior culture mindset and cannot truly appreciate rule of law or separation of powers or self-responsibility in an economic sense because they don't relate to it. Basically, 'one culture' has to come from 'one history.'

I think you understand my idea.

> you would want to minimize the amount of societal change the nation experiences from immigrants
which is why I think most blacks shouldnt here here to begin with. And I agree that whites should be maybe70%-80% of out nation at all times by law, so that we continue to be the strongest driving force in the country and not get cucked by other people who over power us culturally through simple brute force.

> amount of energy to bring them to the level of a Ben Carson. And we know that individuals like the good doctor are the exception, surrounded by thousands of other blacks who see themselves as blacks first.

Also what I agree with 100%
Why would anyone deny ben carson citizenship based on his skin? He may be nuts sometimes but in the context of a citizen he loves america and is a great doctor. Keep these and kick out the other thousands of africans. This is my point.

>t. And even if we grant that SOME immigrants can come to relate to our nation's culture and spirit
I want some, the best. Not diversity just for diversity. You admit a few are capable. Let them in.

> their children and children's children won't, at least not in a substantive way.
this only happens today because we arent nationalist at all. Thats why i wish we were. Sure we have some patriotism in USA but USA isnt a nationalist country. This is the hispanic problems summed up. Good hard working legal immigrants come to the country. Most from mexico. their children grow up in low income communities. and the worst part, go to a school that teaches white guilt or evilness at the worst, and no nationalism at all at the best.
Of course they grow up to be ghetto democrat thugs that hate whites and USA

A lot of it has to do with our own culture not being nationalist. Not even white kids in school are taught to respect our country

Some might blame immigration for my second point. No, its straight out liberal multiculturalism. If it was immigration why dont we have the same problems with the asian community as we do with blacks and hispanics? Both groups are immigrants but they appreciate america in different levels.

So you would be fine having blacks marry your daughters if they were Ben Carson's kids?

Picking out the bad apples sounds good enough on the surface, but you assuming that the good apples will always produce good apples. It's not easy give up your ethnic identity for one created by another racial group. Race is the foundation for people's identity and inevitably a number of Carson's children would see themselves as others.

It's pretty hard to ask a black family to integrate into a white neighborhood when their constantly reminded their different. The only way to solve for this would be race mixing, which would lower the genetic quality of the people as a whole.

Being weak and inconsistent will lead to more of the same problems we see today, and ultimately, Carson's children will be happier among their own.

>I want some, the best. Not diversity just for diversity. You admit a few are capable. Let them in.

I don't see how you get over the problem of their children relating to their ancestor's history and not ours, and even the 'best' will bring with them the baggage of their own country's spirit.

>this only happens today because we arent nationalist at all. Thats why i wish we were. Sure we have some patriotism in USA but USA isnt a nationalist country. This is the hispanic problems summed up. Good hard working legal immigrants come to the country. Most from mexico. their children grow up in low income communities. and the worst part, go to a school that teaches white guilt or evilness at the worst, and no nationalism at all at the best.
>Of course they grow up to be ghetto democrat thugs that hate whites and USA

Where do you think is the cause of so much of that ideology though? Minorities entering the country, foreign ideals influence our universities, etc. And why do you think they're so susceptible to it? Because, again, of their historical baggage.

>A lot of it has to do with our own culture not being nationalist. Not even white kids in school are taught to respect our country

It's easier to respect a country if one's ancestors built the place.

I'll agree that a black man and Asian man will see themselves as such no matter how much they love USA. This /might/ become an issue at times. But the same is for saying "lets make an enthostate, where everyone is white, so everyone will be a good citizen and we will have a perfect country."

On one hand, (civic) you have citizens united as one under the same language, flag, and culture, however some might feel a bit different due to how they look. This shouldnt be an as big as an issue if we dont foster different ethnic cultures within our nation. 0%. All they will have is a small burden of physical looks. Thats like being born ugly.
On the other hand, (ethno) you have citizens untied under one race, and presumably everything else stated before. (but mostly race because whats the point of an entho society without being focused on race) this doesnt prevent from having white degenerates in the country.

If America was 100% white right now, would you be okay with immigration from non-whites?

It seems you recognize that the whiter a nation is the more smoothly things run. Your just uncomfortable with deporting some token minorities you like.

>Where do you think is the cause of so much of that ideology though? Minorities entering the country, foreign ideals influence our universities, etc. And why do you think they're so susceptible to it? Because, again, of their historical baggage

I think the biggest factor is liberal Multiculturalism and although that is done through immigration, its not immigration alone, a lot of times its white media pushing for it.

>I don't see how you get over the problem of their children relating to their ancestor's history and not ours, and even the 'best' will bring with them the baggage of their own country's spirit.
I get what youre trying to say. But I seriously doubt this is such an important issue for individuals. If an asian or so sees USA as superior they wont care as much about their asian history. Its not like we are taking replacing north korean citizens with a new culture they will feel alienated to.

And talking about kids, I wish we had a hyper/ultra nationalist country which as Ive said, we dont. Not even with whites born in USA. We need our education system to teach children how to love the country. Hitler wrote a lot about this concept. A nation needs to indoctrinate children through school, teach about our successful citizens, our nations advances and inventions.
Instead we have WHITE liberal teachers brainwashing kids about how we are awful. Minorities just jump wagon on this but this is liberalism ideology by WHITES not patriotic immigration.

Civic nationalism has more holes in it than swiss cheese. Social Marxists are more logically consistent than a civic nationalist.

Since U.S. Hispanics have a higher IQ than the Irish and a bunch of other Eurocucks, what should we do about the latter? And about niggers?

>It seems you recognize that the whiter a nation is the more smoothly things run. Your just uncomfortable with deporting some token minorities you like.

Here are my beliefs.
1. ALL races have people that are successful and educated.
2. White people tend to have more, fact.
3. White people have more because of "white culture" more than genetics. Although genetics are probably a big part, they dont have the last say. (ex. single parent houshold cause more crime and uneducated citizens. Yes for whites too.)
3.5 whites can be degenerates
4. Thus we must have a mostly white country. But we cant value degenerate whites over successful immigrants. Thats illogical. This is assuming we try the best to have a good nation and only 2% or so of our whites are lazy junkies. but thats just a random assumption that doesnt play into this as much.

>white media

We should accept immigrants based on intelligence, skills, value, etc. Based on individuality. We shouldnt purely accept mass immigration because "they want a better life" or "are refugees".

...

yeah, I didnt want to stray off topic. But you understand. My point is white liberals, media and entertainment are what push liberal multiculturalism. Not selectively accepting some good immigrants. as long as we indoctrinate the children with a good nationalist educational system

refer to
>which is why I think most blacks shouldnt here here to begin with.
>The reason Minorities vote dem is because, blacks for example, the most loyal base. They arent nationalist. They were stolen from their homeland and are "stuck" here now, forcefully. (yes they can go back individually but im speaking in the context of demographic). How can you expect them to love and be nationalist if they didnt want and shouldnt had been here to begin with3.
>White people have more (success) because of "white culture" more than genetics. Although genetics are probably a big part, they dont have the last say. (ex. single parent houshold cause more crime and uneducated citizens. Yes for whites too.)

White have more success because they are smarter, by a huge margin. Chinese weren't effected by "white" culture and are now succeeded more than the average white. Mexicans are also working their way up and will soon be equal.

Blacks have an easier time (far easier time) getting accepted to Ivy league universities and have a plethora of scholarships available to them not available to whites. Their individual failures are their own.

Valuing individualism over race, what you are doing, is the reason why whites act degenerate.

And yes, they are more valuable to the nation than an foreigner, because they're your own flesh and blood.

What you're saying is the equivalent of a man disowning his son for poor behavior, and adopting some Asian raised by a tiger mom.

Immigrants are racial aliens. They're not us. We have no duty to these people. If you are a civic nationalist as in you believe in what the US was founded on you understand that non whites were excluded, right? Indians were expelled from white territory and blacks were slaves. The US wasn't founded on multiracialism or racial equality.

youtube.com/watch?v=7TFKRivoZgw

A white ethnic national man who murders someone innocent and is confirmed guilty is shitter for the country than an immigrant who is based. Even in long term. But amount of immigrants has to be calculated and kept at a slow drip. Ghettoisation seems to bring out the top 10-15% of the immigrants up to acceptable levels, the rest go on into generations of crime

>And I agree that whites should be maybe70%-80% of out nation at all times by law,
>This is assuming we try the best to have a good nation and only 2% or so of our whites are lazy junkies.

How can you say I value individualism over race when I say only like 2% might be degenerates realistically if we try improve our nation? or I say USA should be 80% white BY LAW. At the most you can say I value individualism over race 20% but in reality I think white is better, but white doesnt automatically make you good. I think we need a fair share of both. and thats nowhere near 50/50 or the fact that whites are 50/50 bad.

this was for

Nation is directly tied to ethnicity. In a multiethnic state there can be no nation.

you understand my points as well.
ghettoisation and poverty creates bad people.
Thats why our black population is fucked, among other things, but mostly their fault. While most asian come from wealthy immigrant families and dont commit crime at the same rates.

and yes we must calculate immigration so we keep shaping them and not them shaping us

but nations need to be frens with other nations. you need to trade, you need to share intelligence, trade spices etc. you need to have people work in your country and your people in their to build alliances. didnt you ever play Civilisation

Welfare is 90% of the culprit in this chaos

"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other based on similarities such as common ancestral, language, social, cultural or national experiences.[1][2] Unlike other social groups (wealth, age, hobbies), ethnicity is often an inherited status based on the society in which one lives. In some cases, it can be adopted if a person moves into another society. "

I think you mean race. Because I also want ONE culture, all immigrants must assimilate. learn english and USA comes first.

no offence but your flag makes me doubt if youre memeing or not

Are there any books that I can read that explain the why Ethno-nationalism is necessary for the survival of a nation?

What's your religion?

Raised in christian home, strayed.
Im currently leaning back to Christianity but its sometimes overwhelming consider, so im in the process of educating myself and thinking it over spiritually.

as richard spencer says, I guess im a cultural christian.

mein kampf is a decent start, but he doesnt get into details as much. Could had been better.

Its been almost 2 hours, ill check every now and then so feel free to post your opinion but I feel like most views got vaugly stated in some way or another

Im surprised with how well you guys responded, couldve become a meme thread but you guys did give me things to consider or think about, so thanks for the constructive dicussion

You are valuing individualism over race. As soon as you give up on your own, and replace them with a foreigner you are selling out.

You are creating a society where people have limited interest and helping each other, and little incentive to improve their lives. All the homeless whites lying around, all the fags roaming the streets, you should feel the urge to fix, not replace them. They are valuable because they share your blood, and potential. The more stake everyone has in each others' well being the stronger the nation.

Yes, there will be people who are irredeemable. You replace them with more whites. The 20% gap you talk about is just another reason to have more children.

>However, immigrants can benefit our economy and nation if they bring good skills, and are good patriotic law respecting citizens.

Selfish. Taking their cream of the crop from their nation and people benefits no one. Their people needs the best of the best of their own nation to be great and successful. Now we've taken them in and they will always hold their ethnic regions nationalism and never fully adapt to their new western home because it's not their homeland. Their homeland they abandoned will sink deeper into disparity and terror. Example: mexico. They get shittier, their people run away and never are able to have a people's revolution to dismantle the corruption because their brightest folk left for other opportunities in hopes that they can flood their new home with their nations people to turn it into Mexico (or insert shit third world country here). Then that cycle continues until we all just become feces flinging apes.

When did I talk about deporting the "2% degenerate whites" born in usa? Replacing? No.

>homeland
America isnt our homeland we are doing great in comparasion. Yeah respect geographical places but we seriosuly took over the natives home.

Are you implying all nations can be great? Are you saying the "Good Mexicans" didn't leave because mexico was already shit when they decided to leave?

There's only so much room for doctors, students, engineers, and lawyers. When you allow foreigners to enter they limit the number of positions that could be held by whites. You are replacing them.

>yes we must calculate immigration so we keep shaping them and not them shaping us
I agree.

>but people who can prove to be an asset to us and want to love and benefit America.

Saturated workforce isn't an asset nor is it valuable.

Put USA first. Clean the nation. help out all whites. THEN accept the best to fill in positions that wont mess us up in the future. Being 100% white wont automatically makes up good. It will put us in the lead but we can always improve.

Taking over homelands is human nature/tribal. The natives too traveled here and prospered but lost their land to the western man due to inadequate fighting methods compared to western technological advancements of that time period but also due to their own type of infighting with their other +500 tribes. I also understand the argument about mixed mutt Americans and Europeans but boil it down and we're all "white"/ western peoples. I would love to see a preservation of the west as in having Germany for Germans, France for the french and America for the white American settlers, etc but we should unite together when we are threaten by a common enemy that seeks to destroy and replace us. Human beings love and fight, it's how we're all here, similar and different in ethnicity, gender, and geographically in roles. I appreciate your curiosity and in a perfect world where good and peace only existed civic nationalism could work but that world doesn't exist. It's a lot more complicated when you start funneling down the "rabbit hole" but it all makes sense but god..i think the race pull is one of the hardest pills to swallow because it shows you that you can't look at race/gender on a individual scale, you have to look at it on the collective scale (the on average means).
I would much rather live in a western world than that of a third world.

The "good Mexicans" should have stayed in Mexico to make it better instead of escaping. The parents that left for better opportunities because America would offer them the American dream should have tried to inspire and be strong to encourage their children to make their country better as a future outlook. How would you feel if a village of simple people lost their one and only doctor because the city over yonder said they'll give the doctor better opportunities and financial gains? The doctor tells them he'll be back or he'll find someone to cover but only to find out latee they never returned? Or that the villagers either died out or ran off leaving the remaining ones pick up the slack and barely make it to survive or how about corruption because someone else in the village sees a opportunity to take it all for themselves..ya killed off the village and the process of it dying out is torture.

I understand what you mean. I actually think we agree in 99% of things. What we disgaree in is the intensity of such ideas which is the point of this arguement. Essentially I believe white and west is best. You do too. But I believe we should accept token immigrants as long as they are a minority, valuable, and do not bring in their culture. This is where you say no, race alone is a threat to our civilization becauss it leads to other things like multiculturalism and race mixing, and its very hard for them to get rid of their culture. Which I think that these issues can be prevented with an authoritarian gov and/or culture while still benefiting off their value. Which would be needed in an ethnostate anyway (the type of gov or culture.)

>yes we must calculate immigration so we keep shaping them and not them shaping us

Well better keep immigration numbers really low, best way to keep them wanting to adapt but they reproduce, bring family the "legal" way and next thing you know their community has gotten bigger and now they want to start voting/advocating for their own self interest. People naturally flock to people that look like their own folk. Birds of a feather flock together.

>Civic nationalism has more holes in it than swiss cheese. Social Marxists are more logically consistent than a civic nationalist.
This is not true. Socialism will degrade any race over time.

That is cruel. But this only happens today because of mass immigration we have. I guess I was very wrong to state usa should be 80% white. Maybe 90%-95% should be. This still hurts nations but you cant blame their shittiness over a few leaving. If they have that few good people they deserve to be gone. But I doubt thats the case for most.

I actually advocate for an ethnostate. I think all ethnic groups should advocate for their own ethnostates too. I would also love it even more if we could successfully implement this with little to no violent measures. The only immigrants I would take in are ones that are similar to the majority people that lives in that land..i guess it like looking at a skin color chart, the lighter the skin tone can live in the shades that are similar or lighter..same as the darker shades. The contrasting colors living together will cause quite the shock.

The bottom line is that we, the Alt Whatever, needs to have a regular meeting or conference to hash out the problems. The Alt light are too dreamy and the Alt Right are too dreamy. I am a realist and want obtainable goals! The answers are there.... You will all ignore me though.

One way to really prevent racial tension is the nationalism under something else. In this case the nation itself. Like how Abraham lincon found references to "One God" to unite the south and north when they were at their most polarized culturally. But yes. I still stand on the reasoning of civic nationalism in its principles but perhaps populations must be kept lower realistically. But as stated while it might not prevent 100% true nationalism under one country reduces racial tensions. But thats kind of my point. Nothing is 100%

It is cruel and i blame it on the "left" and "right", honestly government is absolutely corrupted to the core and always have been the "sides" are just entertainment to normal folk..new gladiators of our time. Anyway, the left and right started the whole mass immigration from we'll have a better nation because we'll take the brightest and strongest of other countries to well sorry steve we're outsourcing your job and hey meet Mohammed you'll be training him your job to hey whites, we're selling you the American child free vaca life..uh no worries we'll repopulate by letting the africans, Hispanics, and middle eastern in..they fuck and reproduce like rabbits! they'll assimilate just fine! It'll be a gain for us the west!

Well...looks like it's going great..as you constantly check over your shoulder for muggers or debate if taking a trip to Europe is okay better check the terror alert chart before you go..

Sure the smart people should stay i a shit country while all the low IQ majority fuck everything up. Nah.

I hate that too and fear for the future of usa for whites not reproducing more. But that isnt nationalism, thats just immigrants getting citizens . And the left begs them not to assimilate. This isnt civic nationalism gone wrong. Its globalist and liberals hating whites.

Well yes we make them more productive in our nation but its not like well take all. Just some. Not as many as we are right now.