Hi agnostics of Sup Forums, i used to be an atheist, then i realized that believing is not only necessary but the core of being human. I still dont know what tha fuck should i belive. the problem of being an atheist so long is that you start to develop a complex taste for logic. So this question is not from a place of atheism, nor a test. Its from a seeker. and the question is generic enough to anyone that believe in a free and unstoppable power. From those who belive that god is father or mother, from those who belive its energy or whatever. It does not matter for this question. so lets go to the problem first:
Most current religions believe god is good, even tho god can destroy cities or tell a man to kill his child there is a "divine plan" that turns out is a lesson that redeems the god. Therefore, god can appear to be evil if his endgame is the common good. Lets think about the world now. Lots of philosophers get into this commons sense that this world is shit. We got pedophiles, hurricanes, famine etc. So if god is good and the world is shit, and if god is everything and created the world. we have a problem. So here is my question : What is the purpose of evil ?
Question for the Belivers
there is no purpose.its just there.and it needs to be fightened before it goes straight back to hell.
so god created evil randomly and without purpose ?
thats not the work of god
evil where or in what form? Youre thinking as a human, there was evil before the world and humans were created
at least in christian context
so, if evil is not work of god then he does not controll evil, therefore god is not all powerful, or he is letting evil be. that makes either :
1- evil is an automatous force that god cant controll directly and was created by (? i dont know).
2- Evil allways was and we dont know who created it and god uses evil for something.
either way god is not all powerfull, and his potency is in check.
Evil is a natural result of free will. It has no distinct purpose, it is just the result of a lack of goodness. Either god could give us free will, in which case we have to endure evil alongside it, or God could curtail free will, in which case there would be no evil but we would not be morally and spiritually free. God decided that the benefits of giving humans free will outweigh the negatives.
Religion is honesty, the universe is the church. Transcend your need for deception in all circumstances.
Ignore my flag, it set to nazbol for some reason
The problem exists in exoteric Christianity as well as the surface of Islam and other such beliefs. You need to go deeper to understand.
sure
>Youre thinking as a human
i can only think as a human sorry.
>evil where or in what form?
in its generic form. if someone or something promotes bad consequences for the life of someone i call it evil.
> there was evil before the world and humans were created
i dont know if i can agree with that. but in a Gnostic point of view i guess its possible.
Good and evil give rise, define, and give meaning to each other. Faith, intellectualism, and love transcend them both. If we are to understand god, we must first understand the duality within ourselves. Perhaps the world exists as it does to illustrate this point. Perhaps not lol
the problem is our concept of good
people now think good is accepting everything, that's not what God teach about good
In a christian context there was evil before mankind. I didnt mean youre thinking in the level of a human but in the pov of a human rather than the bigger picture.
In Christianity, God made angels. He didnt ask him to serve them he just told them. So some of them didnt consent and eventually rebelled, (Ex. Lucifer, fallen angels, although they are not the same thing, different stories.)
So that alone was evil because it was envy, it was the first sin, considering sin is anything God disapproves of.
youre question is too vague because it depends on the religion
evil is an automatous force that god cant controll directly and was created by (? i dont know).
by the devil
god is powerful and fights indeed the devil
thats my theory
If you take the assumption that you are eternal, (especially if you buy into reincarnation,) then your lifetime is a small blip on an infinite journey of growth and discovery and becoming. This lifetime may be a punishment, or a test, or a challenge, to help you develop character and spiritual wisdom and become increasingly improved and perfected. Like a soldier going through boot camp, or a parent disciplining a child, or a medical student having to study all night for a test, or having to endure a painful surgery, the pain has a purpose, and in the big, eternal scheme of things, it is not a big deal. Ultimately it helps you spiritually evolve to a higher form.
Now you could ask the question, why didn't God set up a system where we didn't have to suffer to grow? That question is unanswerable I'm afraid, at least in this incarnation.
this exact point is part 2. of my original point.
God didnt want angels who were slaves, or robots who didnt love him. He then made mankind after the angels rebellion, so that humans can have free will and chose to love him or not.
>What is the purpose of evil ?
Hurricanes and famines are not evil, to begin with. They are calamities. I like the questions you're asking, though.
Take God is good as a beginning point for the sole reason that if God is evil, nothing and nobody can stop God, and all is lost. So take God is good as a beginning point in order to preserve any hope at all.
You look around you and you see evil, you see calamities, you see brokenness, you see pain, sorrow, suffering, and death.
The problem is that your worldview, a naturalistic worldview, assumes that all has been as it is now. That the world in this state is the world in every state it has ever been in, and that's where your worldview lets you down.
God created the angels, the world, man and woman, and everything that is created, and God said all of it was good. That's good to God's standards, which surpasses us and our understanding of "good".
But the world, and men and women, are not like that today.
So what happened to cause this idyllic garden world populated with good creatures and good humans to turn into the broken, groaning, evil, cursed world that we experience when we study it?
What changed?
It's not a very robust theory. It supposes that something God made, or the collective totality of everything that God made, can fight God to a standstill.
It also supposes that evil is a created thing; it is not. Evil is a twisted, perverted, corrupted good thing. For instance, sex between husband and wife is good; sex between man and beast is evil. Twisted. Perverse. Corrupt.
>Evil is a natural result of free will.
makes sense. both Biblical and logically.
> It has no distinct purpose, it is just the result of a lack of goodness.
you just said evil is the result of freewill therefore it has a purpose, its either :
-outcome of freewill, like something that is produced exercising freewill.
-a pillar of freewill, as in something that is necessary for freewill.
perception
The answer to that seems simple enough to me.
If God removed all evil, he would also remove mans ability to commit evil. By doing so, removing his ability to make decisions that are opposed to the law, destroying free-will as a consequence.
Therefore, God will never stop evil or prevent man from doing evil, since removing free-will would defeat the whole purpose of creating a world in the first place.
Is it unanswerable though? Let's consider this.
God could make any universe He wants to make; He is God.
1. Makes no universe.
2. Makes a universe but does not populate it.
3. Makes a universe and populates it with automatons.
4. Makes a universe and populates it with creatures who always choose good over evil.
5. Makes this universe, populates it with free will moral agents.
Let's assume that God, who is Love, seeks to create a universe wherein Love freely given and freely received is the greatest and highest ideal.
Which of those universes suits that purpose?
>he doesn't know about the demiurge
The British helped me, for now :
The purpose of evil is to be a necessary component of freewill. We are free then necessarily we are potentially evil.
Makes sense.
Non-credited response.
Yep. If God is One, than nothing happens without his permission. Including evil.
I believe you are very close to the truth; however I do believe that evil is a temporary problem, and not an eternal problem. It did not used to exist, and it will not exist forever.
Do you think that is an eternal state, or temporary? Are you capable of distinguishing what is God's express will, and what is God's permissive will? Or any other sort of will that God manifests for Himself?
>then i realized that believing is not only necessary but the core of being human.
Uh huh.
Interesting point. But according to your point, the goal of existence is to advance the beings of #5 to the level of #4. Why not just create the beings with the #4 level to begin with?
Those are good answers.
This is a very good reflection, but lacks an awnser (close tho) :
this was a very good argument concerning (good Vs evil in god ) what i call the duality in a all powerful being.
enlighten me :
yeah this is a necessary condition to the response :
>hurr durr spoon feed me
Because then Adam and Eve would never have rebelled against God, never listened to the serpent, and would never have been incapable of returning God's love. You would basically have a more realistic automaton world where "love" would be a bland, meaningless platitude.
In order for the proper exercise of free will, apparently viable alternative must be present. They must have had the choice to sin against God, or their obedience was hardwired into them, and their love meaningless.
Kind of like a Real Doll that says "I love you!" every time you squeeze its thumb.
Somebody might have already said it, but without evil there would be no good. The greater the evil, the greater the good, if that makes any sense. Take the Old Testament for example. God sends several plagues to Egypt because the pharaoh is enslaving his people. In order to do good for his people, he must do evil upon Pharoah and the people of Egypt.
I was reading that lord of the rings book about the creation of the universe. Then i realized that Tolkien books are mostly christian. His "God" is also One, and the evil is created and is necessary to the creation of the universe. Evil promotes movement. but in that book evil is under control. it tries to take controll, but god allways correct its doing. turning that to a more practical thing. God will always prevail until the ultimate evil comes, and that to me is the end of the human race. then there is no more movement known.
Look not only the devil can be evil.god can it be too.
if you have a world full of atheistics with no moral ground then yeah the earth is gone in 30years
sex between man and beast is evil.
yeah those idiots get corrupted by the devil and punished by god
I would think that if God is all, than the idea that nothing happens without his permission or will would have to be a permanent state. All is part of God, including us. Unless of course God chose to separate from that part of himself which is us and the world, and allow that part of him to break off and become fully independent.
If you mean do I think that the current level of evil and inequity and injustice that he allows and wills is permanent, I would certainly hope it's not. If it is, then the struggle of human history seems rather pointless.
And I don't make a distinction between his permission and his will. As I said, if God is One, then nothing happens that he does not will to happen. That this can coexist at the same time as free will is undoubtedly a paradox, but God can do anything, including allowing us to make free will decisions that he already knows the outcome of.
This is just a hypothesis of course. For all I know the materialist interpretation is correct and it is all a meaningless accident.
God can never be evil; He is holy.
Can He use evil tools?
Absolutely. All He had to do is to stop restraining the evil tool (the devil) and the devil will naturally perform as much evil as he can. When you consider that the least of the fallen angels can kill all of humanity in a week, that restraint is very important to our lives and wellbeing.
All of the universe's evil is concentrated on this one planet.
Don't be surprised there is evil; be amazed that there is something other than evil.
this dualism is overthrown by the idea of the Demiurge:
(in Gnosticism and other theological systems) a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.
so evil would be a smaller but necessary power to the divine plan.
>What is the purpose of evil
None. Evil wasn't intentionally created by some god.
Perhaps. It would be a lot more pleasant being one of those automatons though.
So what is the ultimate purpose of creating a free-will being then as opposed to an automaton? Is God just lonely?
God is good because He is God; his actions define what good is. He made the universe and all of its rules - we just live here. We don't get to independently define good and evil for ourselves, because we're not God. The whole purpose of our existence is to serve God and go along with what He wants. Anything else is a quick trip to hell.
That's really all there is to it.
well we should not fight evil then, we should undo his doing. that is the godly way i guess. This way we can encapsulate evil and deal with it on daly basis. thanks Sup Forums with this i got my conclusion.
>Plato refers to the Demiurge frequently in the Timaeus as the entity who "fashioned and shaped" the material world. Plato describes the Demiurge as unreservedly good and hence desirous of a world as good as possible. The world remains allegedly imperfect because the Demiurge had to work on pre-existing chaotic matter. Christianity and Judaism claim "God" the Creator is good, but Christians claim the soul is corrupt due to the sin of Adam. Gnosticism is another matter.
>In Gnosticism the Demiurge (Creator) is by no means all-good, but a bungling and incompetent fool that creates the world as a spiritual prison. Gnosticism also presents a distinction between the highest, unknowable "alien God" and the "creator" of the material - the Demiurge. However, in contrast to Plato, many systems of Gnostic thought present the Demiurge as antagonistic to the will of the Supreme Creator: this sort of Demiurge focus' solely on material reality and on the "sensuous soul". In Gnosticism, the Demiurge is an emanation from a higher, purer aeon.
>In this system, the Demiurge is a way to understand the problem of evil, differing sharply from Christianity, which sees the originally good Creation corrupted by created beings (such as the Devil). In Gnosticism the Demiurge created evil as in the Apocryphon of John (in the Nag Hammadi library), the Demiurge has the name "Yaltabaoth". Through arrogance born of stupidity, he proclaims himself as God:
>"Now the archon who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come."
God can never be evil; He is holy.
Can He use evil tools?
Absolutely
thats what i meant in the first place.
>Don't be surprised there is evil; be amazed that there is something other than evil.
exactly
>Yaldabaoth literally means "Child, come hither" in a certain Semitic language. Gnostic myth recounts that Sophia (literally "wisdom", the Demiurge's mother and aspect of the Father) desired to create something apart from the Father to which he did not consent. In this act of separation, she gave birth to the Demiurge and being ashamed of her deed, she wrapped him in a cloud and created a throne for him within it.
>The Demiurge did not see her, nor anyone else, and thus concluded that only he himself existed, he did not know the source of his power and did not know that there was someone above him. The myth is full of intricate nuances portraying the first separation which later turned into the entrapment of the divine spark, Sophia, within the human form. This spark is latent until awakened by a call and the knowledge of one as this divine spark is the beginning of restoration of Sophia as well as gnosis.
>Saklas means "fool" and Samael literally means "Blind God" or "God of the Blind". It may equate to the Judaic Angel of Death, and corresponds to the folkloric demon of that name.
>Yao is alongside Yaldabaoth, the other name most frequently encountered in Gnostic scripture. Yao is the Gnostic pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YhWh). Several Gnostic philosophers (notably Marcion of Sinope) and others (such as Maniche) identify the Demiurge as Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, as the enemy to the God of the New Testament. Still other traditions also equated YhWh with Satan. For example, Catharism apparently inherited their idea of Satan as the creator of the evil world directly or indirectly from Gnosticism. The church declared all these heresies for teaching that all Creation was the work of an evil god.
I do not agree with the premise that "God is all", which frankly is from eastern mysticism and not from a Judeo-Christian worldview. Is the painting part of the painter? Or is it separate, yet containing his labor, skill and love?
There was no evil prior to the fall of the head of the angels, at all, and when the thought of rebellion against God crossed his heart, the rebellion was over and he lost. He lost his place in heaven, and was cast down to the earth.
Likewise, there was no evil on earth until the second day of creation, when the devil was cast down to earth. And there was no evil in mankind until Eve was deceived, rebelled against God, and Adam knowingly joined in the rebellion.
When that event happened, everything changed. Man was cursed. Woman was cursed. The serpent was cursed. The ground was cursed. The universe was cursed. They were exiled from the Garden of Eden with a cryptic message of hope:
That from the seed of woman a savior would come and crush the head of the serpent, while the serpent would only bruise his heel.
No, evil is not a necessary part of reality; it's a temporary problem between the Fall of Man and Judgment Day. Once all evil is confined to the outer darkness, aka hell, there will be no evil forevermore.
Something I really look forward to.
listen to some lectures by clay jones, ravi zacharias, and vince vitale. good places to start
>The concept of an evil or bungling Demiurge who creates the world is completely at odds with Christian theology in which the creation is originally all good and the work of one all-good Creator. It rejects the notion that the Devil or any other being resembling the Demiurge could create the beauty and order in the physical universe, and the writings of early church fathers, beginning with the Apostle Paul specifically condemn Gnosticism as high heresy. Christianity has nothing analogous to an evil Creator god. The nearest Christian equivalent to the Demiurge is Satan, which literally means the "Enemy."
>Pagan philosophers in the lineage of Plato also rebuke the Gnostics. This would include Plotinus who, rebuked Gnosticism in the ninth tractate of the second Ennead: "Against Those That Affirm The Creator of The Cosmos and The Cosmos Itself to Be Evil" (generally quoted as "Against The Gnostics"). Being grounded in platonic thought, the Neoplatonists would have rejected the gnostic vilification of Platos's demiurge.
>To quote, Emanation is opposed to the Judeo-Christian conception of creation, in which the eternal God makes all from nothing. To explain the relation of a totally transcendent God to a finite and imperfect world, the belief in emanation denies that God directly created the world but maintains rather that the world is the result of a chain of emergence through emanations. From God (the One, or the Absolute), the one prime principle, flows the divine substance; his own substance never lessens.
>As the flow proceeds farther from God, however, its divinity steadily decreases. When a stone is dropped into water, the circles ever widening from the point (God) where the stone fell are emanations, becoming fainter and fainter. Emanation never ceases, the whole process moving continuously outward from God. In the 3d cent. A.D., Plotinus and other Neoplatonists developed a clear system of emanation. The Neoplatonists ascribed to Plato an emanative concept in his Idea of the Good as being supreme, the lesser ideas being in some way related to the Idea of the Good.
OP why you use picture of nigger
lets sumarize :
Evil is necessary to freewill.
Evil is necessary to god.
God is not necessarily evil (it can be) but the ultimate outcome of god is good.
So god created evil and injected into humans so we can be free.
ethics :
fighting evil physically is a mistake (so lets not kill our enemys). We have to deal with evil withing ourselves on daily basis. Being pissed is ok, since someone can kill your loveds one and harm you. But killing someone that did you harm is a mistake since its useless : evil is infinite and will keep coming and sometimes you cant do anything about it. We can only try to undo the evil consequences.
Would it? Do robots seem happy to you?
Here's what's happening.
In the beginning, God breathed His Holy Spirit into a clay statue and Adam became a living being. He who has the Spirit, has life; he who has not the Spirit, has not life.
The day they sinned, they lost the Spirit. Sin was a barrier between man and God.
Jesus tore down that barrier by dying on the cross, so that anyone who believes in Him can be raised from the dead as He was, immortal, transformed, and glorified.
So the Holy Spirit in me will never leave me, because the sin problem was taken care of at the cross. He had no reason to ever leave.
So here I am, already a physically living free will moral agent who freely chose to regain the Holy Spirit that Adam lost, and become a new creation in Christ Jesus. One who can stand before God and not die.
This collaboration, the free choice to be transformed, was greater than Adam's as Adam had no choice. He did not come alive until after the transformation had already happened.
My choice, to collaborate with God to create a new creation in me, comes with greater rewards than Adam ever dreamed of. Adam was the son of God because God made him; I am an adopted son of God, and joint heir with Christ Jesus.
>Thinking you have to believe in god and thinks it's core to being human
Kill yourself huehue
God turns what is meant for evil into good. Constantly. It's what he does.
It is. You were created to house the Holy Spirit of God within you; you were created to be in the image of God.
By placing yourself down with the animals, you deny the very reason for your own existence.
makes sense.
Can't tell if you're trolling or just retarded
I don't know how people go through life being unable to even recognize the truth, much less understand it.
i did no say god. i said believing. the object of belief varies. that moment a monkey outsmarts a first world country citizen.
remember your master,goy
in a classical christian context it's more like:
- God is good by his nature
- Evil is that which opposes God's nature and will
- Evil is possible for contingent beings with free will
- God wants people that want him
- God created people with free will
- So evil is allowed to exist (for a time)
Other consequences:
- Evil shows the horror of hating/opposing God
- We know there are evil desires in our hearts, shows our need for moral redemption
Evil is the possibility of error.
I would disagree with your premise that "God is One" is not Judeo-Christian. It is unquestionably Jewish, maybe not so much Christian.
This might give you some insight to the Jewish view. It also touches on many other issues of this thread:
chabad.org
"God is One" and "God is All" are two different statements.
No thank you. You will have to find a blind man to follow your lead, blind man. But then how will either of you manage not to fall in the ditch?
>i will read it, still there is a illogical problem concerning this :
if there is a duality in the power as in : god and the devil as separate instances fighting constantly we will have a impotent god fighting another impotent god. If the devil is a minor power then we have a instance working to mantain something that god needs doing.
Personal insults are a great way to convince someone to adopt your spiritual worldview.
The devil is a minor power compared to God; an insignificant power compared to God.
However, compared to anything else, the devil is a more powerful creature than even Michael the Archangel. After all, Michael dared not bring a railing accusation against satan, but only said "the Lord rebuke you!". And Gabriel required Michael's help for 21 days to free himself from the "prince of persia" to deliver God's response to Daniel's prayer.
These dignitaries are far above us (now). Maybe not so much later.
in conclusion the devil is the gods bitch that is trying to take his house but has no power to do so, so it shits all over the place creating instability. problem is we cant kill the gods bitch, so we have to clean its shit.
Jews offering me assistance in understanding how there is one God, when they clearly have zero concept that the Trinity is One God they called YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, amuse me.
I cannot remove the veil that YHWH placed over your heart so that you cannot understand Moses and the prophets; only Jesus can do that.
You have to turn to Jesus to have that veil removed, blind man. Not me.
kek
Pretty much. But the devil will have his day, and then be confined to a lake of fire forever.
Sure hope none of you join him (looking at you, Jew).
Evil was created by god for no other purpose but as a test from God when humanity agreed to have free-will when the mountains and skies refused it.
It was how we were then given our physical form and intelligence that gave us complete freedom to think however we want and do whatever we want. While the skies were given a form to protect us from the scorching sun and the mountains were made to protect us from earthquakes.
But it is not God who makes people do evil deeds but Satan,who is basically evil is physical form,who promised god that he will divert humanity away from the right path.
This test will decide where we belong in the after-life. Hell or Heaven, and which level.
im not a jew. i got into this kind of thought by thinking and combining stuff that i hear and read. i was baptized a christian, my gramma was brazilian "witch doctor" my father was a christian protestant and my stapdad was a gommie jew but atheist, my mom was sort of a brench of christians that belive in reencarnation i dont know hat you call that in english. is some sort of way judeo-christianity trespass all those religions, but no im not a jew.
I'm not trying to assist you in anything. I am fairly agnostic actually, and struggle with belief regularly, and have no authority or interest in telling others what to believe as long as they aren't hurting other people. I do come from a Jewish background however, so I am simply relating the orthodox Jewish view. I don't even necessarily believe it. I am viewing this as a philosophical debate. One that frankly you seem intellectually ill equipped to handle.
You're incapable of assisting me with anything, as you now realize that you struggle and are incapable of helping yourself with the things I have known for literally decades now.
Most of your people are atheists or agnostics now; that's how far you've fallen. You cannot see that the one day establishment of Israel in 1948 was an answer to prophecy; the Dry Bones prophecy of, iirc, Ezekiel. Nor do you know that the war in Ezekiel 38 lurches towards you.
Because your people have no connection to God, are blinded by God, and cannot understand Moses and the Prophets.
I suggest you start watching the youtubes of "One For Israel". It staggers me to find out how many of you Jews do not know that Yehoshua (Jesus) is Jewish!
I called this guy a Jew, not you.
You were baptized as a child? Congratulations, you got wet, and then dried off. It had no spiritual meaning whatsoever; it was merely a placebo for your parents to feel like they were raising you right.
You have a father who is a Christian? Why do you not believe what he believes?
mabe he was not eloquent enough or not capable of teaching me without blindly reading the bible as the ultimate truth. i thank him for that inability. i learned alot for not beliving in the bible. now im mature enough to read it between the lines and finding some logic in that amazing book.
The Universe and everything in it, including us, is creation. The Universe is God, ergo, we are also God.
The act of creation is divine and the act of destruction is evil.
The ultimate purpose of the Universe is to create consciousness, therefore, to destroy consciousness is the ultimate evil.
There is no greater plan.
Good, keep it up. You will find the bible has infinite depth, and that God will use it to speak to you directly. You will find yourself in a passage you did not look up reading words that were meant for you personally. When you come to something you do not understand, stop and contemplate it. Pray for wisdom. Because that is the thing you need to know. Whatever it was that you did not first understand.
Satanic garbage.
Dharma
your religion is alien to me, can you please explain ?
Dharma is karma is "whatever you sow, so shall you reap".
Dharma are the actions you do to the keep the universe together, these are the actions you are supposed to do but the actions you do are karma that determine whether you will be trapped in this cycle of life and death or will you be released from it
>designs races and metaphysical entities that are constitutionally psychopathic
>such creatures, incapable of guilt, torture/sacrifice kids create systems to enslave everybody
>blah, blah, blah free will
>good
Why is pantheism such hot shit these days? It's garbage. OP, Catholicism (Roman or Eastern) or Eastern Orthodoxy are the best paths.
and i cant belive that. im brazilian and all the rich people here have to get into illegal shit to keep them from becoming poor. they are doing this shit for generations now, stealing money that could go to healthcare for example. i cant see any punishment going their way.
It's not vidya user you perform your dharma, everything will move accordingly
oh ok... so if i act differently from what i suppose to im unable to level up. reminds me at nietzsche´s ethernal recurrence but in a metaphysical way (that would be impossible to happen in his philosophy).
Nietzsche and evola were heavily influenced by Hindu doctrines
I'm sorry if the truth frightens you, anons, but sky spirits, with unlimited and omnipotent power over everything happening in the Universe just don't exist.
The Universe is god, take the final redpill and leave your pedophile worship behind.
Best paths to hell are still paths that should not be taken.
Get a longer horizon into the future and see that the wicked do not ultimately prosper. They only temporarily prosper, on earth, and then die and go to hell.
Of course I know Jesus was Jewish. What's your point?
And there are more religious Jews today than any time in history, just not here in America. Go to Israel and tell me how far Jews have strayed from their beliefs. Jews have held on to their belief system for thousands of years with very little change, through unending exile throughout the entire world. Ever other people under similar circumstances has assimilated into their host culture or been destroyed. Whether their beliefs are right or wrong, the idea that as a whole Jews have lost their religion is absurd and does not stand up to empirical reality.
You want to talk about decay in Jewish spiritual belief? Look at your own faith before casting dispersions. Look at Europe. Look at the US. Christianity and it's values (which are largely Jewish) have been largely decimated around the world. The US, once a strong Christian country, has the majority of it's adherents believing that Gay marriage is moral. Most have become atheist or agnostic. The Catholic church has become nothing more than a boy fucking factory. I respect Christianity, but it has been in steep decline in the West for a long time.
Follow satan into hell. What is that to me? You make your own choices in life; deal with the consequences yourself.
>atman me hi paramatma Hai