Hello, fellow egoists. This general is for the discussion of Egoism, the ethical theory that treats self-interest as the foundation of morality.
Egoism is the next stage of humanity, following the “youth,” or “ideological” stage.
What exactly is egoism according to egoists:
>Egoism is the stage of human thought in which the egoist rejects artificial ideological concepts (spooks) in order to follow their own will and serve their own interests.
>Egoism in its full form is a spook-less, self-motivated society that follows no maxim whatsoever. Societal expectations are a spook, and serve only to take advantage of the egoist. Instead of a society or state, egoism proposes a Union of Egoists which would be entirely voluntary and would come and go based on the self-interests of the egoists involved. The union would not take any authority over any of its member’s own wills, and by definition depends on its members participating out of conscious egoism.
>To achieve such a mindset, Stirnerism mandates that the egoist must abandon all spooks, which take the form of “God’s Cause,” “the Good Cause,” nationalism, class, etc, and replace them with their own will, which is controlled solely by their own interests. Then, a period of inner mental struggle follows in which the egoist transforms from the unwilling, involuntary egoist into the willful egoist. When the spooks have been completely vanquished, there will be only one motivation, self-motivation, and eventually the will of the individual will become indistinguishable from his view of the world he beholds.
plato.stanford.edu
en.wikipedia.org
Egoism General
Other urls found in this thread:
en.wikipedia.org
youtube.com
theanarchistlibrary.org
theanarchistlibrary.org
theanarchistlibrary.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
twitter.com
Stirner developed a post-modern individualist philosophy known as egoist anarchism, see here:
en.wikipedia.org
youtube.com
It is recommended that you read some of the critical works of Egoism so you can make an informed assessment of the ideology.
Resources:
theanarchistlibrary.org
theanarchistlibrary.org
theanarchistlibrary.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Abandon your spooks!
>/lit/ memes
Not even once
Stirner stole it from Sup Forums and Engels needs to learn to draw better.
>/lit/ memes
Egoism isn't a meme, but it can be spread by memes.
Engels was a shitty artist but I think Stirner's work benefits from him being technically faceless... the ultimate individualist.
>Engels was a shitty artist
If he drew Stirnir as a cute anime girl it would have been better.
...
So its just Ancap with voluntary "Government"?
That is absolutely correct, pic related.
I AIN'T AFRAID OF NO GHOST!
Stirner used the "marxist" definition of labor but rejected communism and its principles as spooks. This actually caused Marx and Engels to have a shitfit and dedicate a large section of one of their last books to "debunking" egoism. It was all ad hominem and Stirner's rebuttal (Stirner's Critics) was a great read.
I have them all linked above, free pdfs for the freeing of the individual.
So maybe to help egoism be easier to understand for someone new to it... sure it is like ancap with "government." However I would say it's a stage PAST ancap when it comes to individualism.
wrong pic lol
I don't think you'll ever find a primitivist anarchist on this board. They've all fucked off to the woods.
It's sad that I'll never be able to truly debate them on the merits of egoist anarchism but I suppose I could always walk into a forest.
Neat!
What exactly would be the definition of "artificial ideological concepts and spooks"? Would charity be completely rejected since it doesn't directly benefit most individuals? How would such a concept deal with degenerates and criminals?
>Egoism is the next stage of humanity
They said the same thing about communism.
Charity as a "moral necessity" would be rejected because that's a spook that disadvantages you (the egoist). But if you still wanted to participate in charity for your own interests you could.
>concept deal with degenerates and criminals
The concept of morality relates to the "common good," which is a spook. Most of society's moral conventions are facades and are entirely ineffective, so egoists reject them. However, that doesn't mean egoists are pro-degeneracy. The main object of egoism is self-interest, so companies and organizations that push for "degeneracy" would likewise be regarded as spooks.
How does the egoist solve prisoner's dilemmas? If I was running a business, it would be advantageous to me to kill those running competing businesses. This would make all of the competitor's customers come to my business. However, if everyone followed this logic, everyone would be dead. Does the egoist accept the necessity of a police force in resolving such conflicts, or do they think that individuals would be able to solve these problems as individuals?
>literal meme tier (((ideology)))
this entire thread is a spook. i can't wait to hear you talk your way out of a boot to your neck
I took the communist general intro and improved it exponentially, so it will sound similar in some places.
>prisoner's dilemma
It is solved in the traditional way, but more honestly since it would involve a union of egoists.
>running a business to kill competitors
In theory, maybe. But that's the same thing in the system we have already. Egoism is just more honest... and would it really be in your self-interests to be a blatant mass murderer?
>necessity of police
The egoist rejects the word "necessity" and only would abide by a police force if it was in his true self-interest.
>individuals solve problems as individuals
They already do in most cases.
>threatening force against the egoist
What a legitimate platform you have. An egoist rejects both the king's tyranny and the priest's moralfaggotry.
>boot to neck
Not an argument, just like ME... you'd either die or submit if a boot was on your neck.
Abandon spooks.
So it's anarchy but you're required to be an asshole?
>required to be an asshole
Obviously you haven't read anything from the many links I posted.
An egoist only acts in his self-interests, he doesn't bow down or submit to spooks in his mind.
Advocating egoism doesn't mean destroying the government or killing people, it just means recognizing the egoist's (i.e. YOUR) ultimate authority. Don't be a cuck to God, nation, class, etc. Simply put, if it doesn't benefit you, then you don't do it.
It's obviously much more nuanced that that but that's the Sup Forums comment explanation. I recommend you read the Ego and Its Own first.
Any arguments against egoism?
this post gave me down syndrome
If spooks are defined as being artificial, then wouldn't egoism also be a spook by that same logic. ie such a concept does not occur naturally in any voluntary society and therefore is a spook. Going against all collectivist tendencies is a concept against humans tribal nature itself. If such a concept needs to be explained would it not be a spook?
>would it really be in your self-interests to be a blatant mass murderer?
How would it not? The only reason I don't kill everyone is out of a sense of morality, which I have now learned is a "spook".
>Simply put, if it doesn't benefit you, then you don't do it.
History has shown people don't know what's good for them.
fuck off with this shit meme, spooks
The ideology dismisses itself. We can all go home.
Communism is a spook
At least now you aren't as retarded as spooked nerds, though.
>egoism also a spook
Technically an egoist can call himself and his ideology whatever he wants, but the common tongue is "egoism" so that's the term I personally use.
>such a concept does not exist naturally in any society
But it does. An egoist recognizes that humans are driven by self-interest, and makes the extra step in realizing that most motivations and restrictions on his will are artificial (spooks).
>going against collectivist tendencies
Egoism does not go against collectivism, it just advocates for responsible collectivism. Hence a "union of egoists" is a collective where every individual is a member solely because of their self-interests. The only thing that encourages their membership is the fact that they benefit from being in the group... and if they stop benefiting they leave the group.
It's actually the most honest ideology, if it's even able to be called "ideology."
>needs to be explained
Well, the only thing that needs to be explained for most spooked people is that self-interest is what serves their ego, and that the ego is the most important thing to the individual. Everything else naturally follows once the egoist recognizes the TRUE hierarchy of needs.
bump.
Union of egoists is a retarded idea though. It's better to not identify as an egoist. Pretend to be a normal person and just take advantage of other people for your own pleasure.
>how would it not?
Is that really a question? What people would buy from you? What people wouldn't just kill you themselves, since it's in THEIR self-interests to not be murdered?
Oh, but you know what's good for them I'm sure. That's a spook, the reason people don't know "what's good for them" is because they're manipulated by spooks. You'd die for God, for nation, for the greater good but you don't recognize that you're taken advantage of each time. How many people enlist in the US military "to protect their nation" but end up fighting oil wars for Israel instead?
It proves itself, but obviously you're took spooked to care about yourself. What a hero!
An egoist isn't required to do anything he doesn't want to. I identify as an egoist here because I want to, but obviously in public I'm basically a normal joe.
>Hence a "union of egoists" is a collective where every individual is a member solely because of their self-interests
Except it would almost never be in their interest to take part in such an arrangement.
nobody cares about your retarded cult, it has as much potential as bronyism. these are basic truths, your autism is of the charts and you are fat and jerk off to shemale porn.
Anything to back up that statement? Unions of egoists would likely be "less common" that collectivist groups nowadays, but they would also be better. Quality over quantity.
>cult
I can understand calling an Ayn Rand fanboy a cultist but an egoist only serves himself by definition. If you truly sacrifice for others then you're not an egoist.
>autism
Never been diagnosed but I do browse here often.
>fat
thin
>jerk off the shemales
Mommy and big sister porn actually. It's kinda rare though.
Is being taxed a spook policy?
I don't want to hand my money to a bunch of bureaucrats, but I don't want to call a bunch of workers every time a hailstorm puts a bunch of potholes in my private road either.
Haven't read "Ego and Its Own" yet (next on the reading list tho). but I guess I'll post some of my biggest questions about what little I know about the egoism.
Do you reject all forms of justice systems? You reject all coercive institutions, but what about coercive individuals (i.e kidnapping, murder, robbery)? How does the family unit fit into an egoist society? Is religion allowed so long as it's non-coercive?
Surprisingly, this is the most practical form of anarchism I've seen yet. It doesn't require people to all share the same beliefs like every other form of anarchy, which is patently absurd. Self-interest is already built into every human, that alone makes it a far superior moral principle to the NAP or whatever communist nonsense they're pushing these days.
>Oh, but you know what's good for them I'm sure. That's a spook, the reason people don't know "what's good for them" is because they're manipulated by spooks. You'd die for God, for nation, for the greater good but you don't recognize that you're taken advantage of each time. How many people enlist in the US military "to protect their nation" but end up fighting oil wars for Israel instead?
Stop strawmanning my argument. Would you let your kid eat as much chocolate and candy as he wants and grow morbidly obese?
>It proves itself, but obviously you're took spooked to care about yourself. What a hero!
If it violates the principle of non-contradiction it is logically unsound.
Taxation is not only theft, it is a spook. The government and the concept of serving your nation are artificial constructions and do not serve your interests as much as they say. A union of egoists would be preferable.
>call a bunch of workers
If it's in their self-interests to fill holes, they're PROBABLY going to fill the holes user.
...
I think he's saying that you're ideology offers little self protection from authority. He's not actually saying he wants to put a boot to your neck. Pretty spook like of you to jump to that conclusion
Yeah, but it could be in my self interest to pay the guys so I don't have to wade through a bunch of McTollroads and not have money to pay the McPolice because my wallet was stolen. We don't have to call it taxes, we could just call it mandatory pre-service charge.
>would you let your kid
Are you, yourself, a child? Why are you comparing the state, religion, etc to being your father or mother?
And Stirner briefly touches on this subject anyways, a child does not have the mental capacity to truly realize himself. He concerns himself with matters of the physical world (how tall is this mountain, why is the sky blue, etc). The youth, AKA teenager, moves past the physical world and into the ideological one. What is beauty? The good cause? God's will? And so on.
The adult is mature enough to recognize the only supreme authority- his own will.
So no, I wouldn't let my kid eat like a pig unless it benefitted me somehow.
>violates the principle of non-contradiction
Explain how acting out of your self-interest violates this principle.
I will warn you- it isn't the EASIEST read from the 19th century. Stirner loves putting references to other works and he is addicted to run-on sentences. Basically, don't read it drunk like I did my first time. But I recommend it, as well as the follow-up.
>reject all forms of justice system
Since "justice" is a spook, yes. A coercive individual is very similar to a coercive institution, so an egoist would reject that person as well. Kind of like how you didn't hang out with the weird, smelly kids back in high school. The family unit can be viewed as an artificial construction, but personally I believe it is the most effective way to raise a child so I will utilize it. If you don't want to, you don't "have" to.
>religion allowed as long as it's not coercive
Religion, by definition, is coercive. There's always a code or a guideline to base yourself around. It's not that religion would be banned, it just wouldn't exist or be very popular in an egoist's mind.
>most practical form
I agree! I suffered through Atlas Shrugged (but I also recommend it as a starter) and being a libertarian until I decided to be more honest with myself.
how does my indoor plumbing continue to function when everyone in society does only what they want all the time
I am an egoist, but I still have to fight against people who demonize me for being white. If this means organizing, so be it.
It's in my interest to not live under brown rule.
>What people wouldn't just kill you themselves
Exactly, retard. That's what a prisoner's game is: when the individual does it, it's advantageous. When everyone, the world descends into chaos. In such cases, you can't act as an individual, you must act for the benefit of the group.
>Implying every adult knows what's good for him and people don't do stupid stuff that doesn't end well.
i don't mind being spooked as long as i can keep my indoor plumbing lad, if that makes me shallow it's fine but i don't see how egoism is conducive to anything resembling a functional society
It seems to work well for monkeys. You don't see them complaining about plumbing.
spook
it's implied through the usage of the caesar's legion fella. Nobody is "safe" from authority. A radical conservative could be murdered by a communist, or vice versa. It's not an argument to threaten physical force against someone.
>pay the guys
If it's in your self-interest to have the road fixed, and it's in the workers' interests to be paid... there isn't an issue in the egoist society. In fact, there are fewer bureaucratic games to played.
>today I learned people don't actually want to be paid for services rendered
Again, self-interest would motivate SOMEONE to perform a needed service.
If it's in your self-interests, go ahead and do it. Organizing is fine as long as the egoist isn't taken advantage of. An egoist can, in theory, take advantage of a spooked nerd. So it's always the best thing to be the egoist.
So your point is that I'm right? That would be a union of egoists, where cooperation is in everyone's self-interests. I said that in the first reply I gave you.
>implying every adult
It's a metaphor, not a literal statement. It refers to philosophical development. I'm calling you a philosophical teenager.
You're not losing your plumbing just because you put your interests first.
is it just me or does this sound a bit like anarchy
read this:
>I'm calling you a philosophical teenager.
I'm no teenager. I am however calling you stupid because your idea is riddled with logical shortcomings.
>that entire OP pasta
How would Ego military work? It isn't in my interest to get shot, and a bunch of private military corporations might think it's in their best interests to take over since they don't believe in the NAP.
I don't see he implication based on the legion photo. To me he's just saying that your ideology is degenerate, which is also a spook. This is Sup Forums if someone is going to directly threaten you they would say it pretty directly rather than the roundabout way you think he's saying it in.
I am the only real person in the universe. Everyone else exists to help me obtain something. When I am challenged, it's so I don't bore myself. There are no other entities but me. I am, in effect, God.
You mean the egoist is unironocally projecting into the comment?
When even the egoist can do egoism right baka
Egoism is a spook.
If everyone is an egoist than no one is an egoist it would seem. It's almost like you're working against your interests by trying to spread egoism
>I'm no teenager
You sure have the reading comprehension skills of one. You are the philosophical equivalent TO a teenager, since you care more for spooks than yourself. It's okay, you're better than a child. But you're not an adult yet.
>logical shortcomings
Let's name some, then.
Thanks, fellow egoist! I had a great time modifying the original to suit my needs. Glad you enjoyed! (I also made the OP image) :)
You'd only join the military if it was in your self-interests. I personally imagine it like the American militia, where everyone is armed just because it's in their self-interests to protect themselves. They'd join together with groups that they'd get the most benefit from.
>legion
In the game the Legion murders people they don't like, and he's calling me a degenerate even though he has no idea what I actually do. That's a spook. Sup Forums is an edgy website so he'll make a round-about "threat" and think his ideology is so cool even though it takes advantage of him. Still not as bad as the guy with the nazi larper flag.
God's not real but if he was he'd be almost as cool as my ego!
We can go through the rigamaroo but all my points about violent force and authority stand, even if that user didn't intend them.
Spreading egoism is something I want to do. If I change my mind, I'll stop making the threads.
>I'm a massive faggot that supports an ideology that is a spook in itself.
>logical shortcomings
A spook dismissing all spooks.
>be an individual!
>no, not THAT much of an individual
Take the final step already.
Stop side-tracking from the fact that your ideology is logically impossible. Anything that violates non-contradiction doesn't exist.
>logically impossible
How so? Again you haven't defined anything.
>non-contradiction
I believe I already defined what a spook was, but I'll do it again because I want to. A spook is an artificial construct that seeks to take advantage of the individual, often to the individual's harm. An example would be the church demanding tithes, or that you fight for "God's Cause." A nation taxing you because it's your patriotic duty. Someone saying you "can't" do something because it's "immoral." Those are all spooks.
If you're trying to say "egoism is a spook" that doesn't really work, as I explained here:
You're welcome! I started reading The Ego and His Own a while ago but stalled out. You've convinced me to pick it up again.
Also the memes are pretty dank, although most of them appear to be targeted at the right when Stirner would have shit on the commies just as much.
How does it violate non-contradiction?
Stirner shat on Marx a lot
An egoist would contribute to charity because they enjoy it, whereas a spooked person does it because "it's the right thing to do"
It picks up the further you go, once you get to The Spook (page 32 of the pdf I listed) you get to the meat of the subject. You could actually start there, but I recommend reading the introduction since it prepares you for Stirner's odd writing style. Also feel free to check out all the other links and free pdfs above!
>targetted at the right
I've noticed that as well, which is why I made a few of my own that purposefully include "class" in the list of spooks. I should make some more eventually.
Bingo!
I understand your your point. Another question, What would prevent such a society from becoming completely nihilistic and thus degrading itself back to no common morals (honor, honesty, virtue, etc.)? and would nihilism even be viewed negatively in such a society? Sorry if some of the questions seem rhetorical but I have never actually really heard of this concept beyond the memes.
I've always treated charity as a direct-injection feelgood drug. You give money to feel good about yourself, that's your product.
You addressed it, but quite illogically. Calling it something other than a spook doesn't change the fact that it is still in substance a spook.
The memes are fun (and actually how I was introduced, it's funny how you sometimes go from "this is edgy, I'll post it for (you)s" to "this actually makes a lot of sense."
To answer your questions:
>prevent nihilism
Egoism itself has no goal, so if a group of individuals become nihilistic it's they're choice. Personally I would argue that nihilism goes against my own self-interests and although many people claim Stirner's works influenced nihilism, he had no actual opinion on optimism or pessimism outside of most ideological concepts (good and evil, etc) being false.
>no common morals
Well, an egoist doesn't "believe" in common morality. At its core, morality is only motivated by the self-interests of a society. And if an individual only agrees with a society's morals because "they're the morals" then that person's mind is haunted.
>rhetorical
They're great questions and I like to answer them. I might have to sleep soon though.
If you give to charity because it makes you feel good, and you value your feeling good over whatever money you gave, then you are acting in your own self-interests. It's egoist behavior. If you deny that, then you are what Stirner would call an "unwilling egoist," someone who does what they want but desperately wishes it not to be so.
>they're choice
You can probably tell how late it is that I made such a typo... embarrassing but it's a good thing embarrassment is just a spook ;)
So I think perhaps this is the end of thread, thank you to all who participated and abandoned their spooks.
Ah, it's this Antifa ancom bullshit.
>antifa/ancom
it's a meme
Why do people associate egoism with left-leaning ideas?
Are they just too spooked by the idea of a political plane?
Because the left isn't human so they want an animal society.
leftypol has a "larger" grasp on stirner due to his association with Marx but he is neither left nor right wing.
>muh people who disagree with me aren't humans
The left and right aren't real.
[groups] conform to [some claim] is spooked thinking, my guy.
Do they even realize that Marx hated Stirner?
I recall hearing that Marx actually wrote more pages of work trying to refute Stirner than Stirner himself wrote expressing his ideology.
>Anarchist shill
>Not realizing the Ego is an illusion and only further deters you from your true enlightened self of nonduality.
>inb4 spook
Is this another joke ideology? Or is ideology a spook too?
What do you mean by this?
Le funny /lit/ glasses guy
Reality itself is a spook. Look around you. Out of all possibilities in the universe, it chose the one you see now. """it""" can be God, the universe, natural selection, whatever. The point is, why is life the way it is and not something else? Chance? What is chance then if there was nothing to start it? Life is a spook my guy.