CATHOLIC GENERAL

Question

CATHOLIC GENERAL

Jason Brown

CATHOLIC GENERAL

Everyone is welcome.
Discuss news, ask question, give answers, be kind to one another, and above all assist one another in living the virtuous life.

July 15, 2017 - 16:47

Other urls found in this thread:

Ayden Walker

Today is fifteenth Sunday in Ordinary Time.

Here are your daily readings
usccb.org/bible/readings/071617.cfm

Community links, such as recommended media, are now below in pastebin links. Remember to recommend things to add to the lists!
>Catholic Encyclopedia
newadvent.org/
>Online Breviary
divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/horas/officium.pl
>Directory for Finding a Latin Mass (U.K)
lms.org.uk/mass-listings
>Directory for Finding a Latin Mass (U.S/Can)
ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm
>Directory for Finding a Latin Mass (Ireland)
latinmassireland.com/mass-listings/
>Laudate App
play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aycka.apps.MassReadings&hl=en
>Recommended Movies
pastebin.com/xAL9w4fk
>Recommended Books
pastebin.com/K8DUUPdC
>Recommended Music
pastebin.com/dgqjiSgs
>Beauty of Creation
pastebin.com/VKGZEvXK
>Tales of Love and Virtue
pastebin.com/Qt3RUsXA

July 15, 2017 - 16:48

Jeremiah Jones

I have a question

Why christians are always saying things like 'Christ loves you', 'Christ died for you'?

July 15, 2017 - 16:49

Nolan Hughes

>CATHOLIC

July 15, 2017 - 16:53

Hunter White

hahahahahahahahahha
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

July 15, 2017 - 16:53

Landon Murphy

Hi Wolf

July 15, 2017 - 16:54

Michael Watson

why did you advertise in my /sg/

July 15, 2017 - 16:55

Owen Evans

Are any of you acting to preserve your local parishes in this age of upheaval?

July 15, 2017 - 16:56

Luis Perry

Hey, happy to help.
Now I don't think I can be comprehensive as I'm not sure why each person does it but most commonly "Christ loves you" is a call to have hope as all things are done by God's will. "Christ died for you" is important as Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God. The incarnation of God died for the sake of us. That is just a roundabout way of getting you to have hope again.

Hope that helped.

?
Yes?

July 15, 2017 - 16:58

Dominic Martin

Have a bump, been reading into a lot of things lately and as someone coming from a mainly baptist/non denominational church background I think I am settling into Orthodox Christianity

July 15, 2017 - 16:58

Jacob Davis

Hey wolf

July 15, 2017 - 16:59

Bentley Fisher

Dues vult

July 15, 2017 - 17:00

Jaxon Price

>From the pastebin Beauty of Creation

This is an ever-growing list of videos, stories, and images of all creation, life, and the world. Enjoy them as they are, despite the small list we're starting with. Feel free to recommend additions to the list on Catholic or Christian Generals.

>Earth Fly-By, thanks to the International Space Station
youtube.com/watch?v=0tHqov_UHYA
>Symphony of Science playlist
youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&list=PLB851C39AD031B643
>The Earthporn website
earthporn.org/

>From the pastebin Tales of Love and Virtue

This is an ever-growing list of videos and stories that touching, sweet, and relevant to Catholic Generals as they are all triumphs of love and/or the human experience. While many would refer to some of these videos as "sad", we cannot forget that these tales are all about love in the face of struggle and the victory despite of it. Feel free to recommend additions to the list on Catholic or Christian Generals.

The church carries with it the greatest of human stories in its 2000-year-old history: The story of the saints, the champions and role models of the Christian faith. This first section will be on them and the second will be other links.

>Saints of the Orthodox Church playlist (shared by the Catholic Chuch)
youtube.com/watch?v=qVX1HOxrDcw&list=PL0AwxAWi5VQ33OaRuyXmi1mlpmSggxp7V
>CCTN's Discovering Our Saints
youtube.com/watch?v=-wzAedYHtwg&list=PLDDDABC497B5B4E93
>Mini-Saint Encyclopedia ran by Catholic Online
catholic.org/saints/

>Other

>Thai Insurance Commercial Playlist
youtube.com/watch?v=632CHpeHYZE&list=PLMt780CWP13md-G-vmF2t-Aq2QqcmRn6A
>Wisdom Commons website
wisdomcommons.org/virtue/153-virtue/lifestories

July 15, 2017 - 17:00

Lincoln Cox

Recommended Christian books, by Sup Forums and 16/2chan. Feel free to recommend additions to the list on Catholic or Christian Generals.

>GENERAL

The Bible (Ignatius Study Bible Recommended)
The catechism of your denomination

>accepted English versions of Bible

NABRE
Douay Rheims
RSV

>THEOLOGY

>novice

Introduction to Christianity by Joseph Ratzinger
The Last Superstition by Edward Feser
The Everlasting Man by G.K. Chesterton
Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton
Mere Christianity
CATHOLICISM by Robert Barron
The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware
Outlines of Moral Theology by Francis J. Connell

>intermediate

Scholastic Metaphysics by Edward Feser
God: His Existence and His Nature by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange
Natural Theology by Bernard Boedder
The Spirit of Medieval Philosophy by Etienne Gilson
Against Heresies
City of God
Christianity for Modern Pagans
The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church

>advanced

Apologia Pro Vita Sua
Summa Contra Gentiles
Summa Theologiae
On the Incarnation
The Didache
Divine Names by Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite

>SPIRITUAL LIFE

>novice

The Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales
Story of a Soul by St. Therese
The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton
Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr Seraphim Rose
Nihilism - Fr Seraphim Rose

part 1

July 15, 2017 - 17:01

Zachary Robinson

dude universalism lmao

Really though. Unless you're Catholics who think the current church has been subverted by a heresy or something then get the fuck of my board

July 15, 2017 - 17:02

Austin Bailey

part 2/2

>intermediate

The Interior Castle
Spiritual Exercises by St. Ignatius
Dialogues by St. Catherine of Sienna
True Devotion to Mary
True Devotion to the Holy Spirit

>advanced

The Cloud of Unknowing
The Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross
The Desert Fathers
The Philokalia
The Ladder of Divine Ascent
New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton
The Imitation of Christ by Thomas Kempis

>MEMETICS

Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World by Rene Girard
I See Satan Fall Like Lightning by Rene Girard

>HISTORICAL/BIOGRAPHICAL

Rome Sweet Home
The Long Loneliness by Dorothy Day
After Virtue
Christendom I: Founding of Christendom
Theology and Social Theory by John Millbank
Ethics and the Limits of Philosophy by Bernard Williams
Life of St.Anthony by Saint Athanasius
Life of St Francis of Assisi by Saint Bonaventure
Silouan the Athonite by Archimandrite Sophrony
The Autobiography of St. Ignatius Loyol
The Formation of Christendom by Christopher Dawson
The Dividing of Christendom by Christoper Dawson

>FICTION

Don Quixote
Diary of a Country Priest
The Divine Comedy
Paradise Lost
Silence by Shusaku Endo
A Canticle for Leibowitz
Faust
Les Miserables
The Canterbury Tales
The Man Who Was Thursday
The Brothers Karamazov
A Man for All Seasons
The Pillars of the Earth
The Lord of the Rings
The Chronicles of Narnia
Lord of the World
Parzifal
Joseph of Arimathea: A Romance of the Grail
The Arthurian Cycle
Quo Vadis

July 15, 2017 - 17:02

Josiah Bailey

What are your thoughts on some of the books in pic related? I have a KJV and Orthodox Study Bible but I was looking to get The Living God Part 1 and 2. Thanks for the thread again.

July 15, 2017 - 17:03

Bentley Reed

Hi

Congratulations, man. What caused the transition for you? An Orthodox painting for you.

July 15, 2017 - 17:04

Jordan Ross

Catholicisn unfortunately has been on a steady decline since the 1400s. Unheard of "traditions" like declaring Mary as co-redeemer of Christ (which is heretical in itaelf. Christ is the ONLY intercessor and redeemer) and giving the pope the status of infallibility are just one of the many examples of the church having been corrupted. Mind you, this doesn't account its secular and ruling power, which is much worse if you look at history.

July 15, 2017 - 17:06

Ryan Clark

Christian music list. The first list is modern music, the second is hymnals and more traditional music. Feel free to recommend additions on Catholic and Christian Generals.

July 15, 2017 - 17:06

Joshua King

you should compile these into a repo for easy access

July 15, 2017 - 17:06

Jason Edwards

Traditional Music

July 15, 2017 - 17:07

Ryan Jenkins

Started reading more into the history of the church and Christianity overall and was drawn to the history, traditions, and worship. The Church has lasted for centuries and it seems many of the issues around today can be attributed to people being lead astray. Still trying to work through the schism because I don't truly understand it yet, but looking to read into it a lot more.

July 15, 2017 - 17:08

Evan Ortiz

>Not mentioning Miserere Mei Deus from Allegri.

July 15, 2017 - 17:09

Julian Phillips

Are you ready to become a Christian?

July 15, 2017 - 17:11

David Wright

I do.
They are literally copy/pastes of the OP pastebins. I repost them because people often don't check the links and I see situations where regulars suddenly are surprised to see all this collected info. The recommended media links in I uphold that the Catholic Church is more than its current leadership. It's current leadership have issues - moreso media-driven that actual issues but there are real issues nonetheless.

And what's this about universalism? What does that have to do with anything I said?

July 15, 2017 - 17:11

David Gray

The Pope has been ramping up criticism of Trump and America lately, how am I supposed to accept this?

July 15, 2017 - 17:11

Carter Jenkins

You don't. Let's face it, the Catholic church is corrupt to the core. There was even a gay orgy conducted by one of the Vatican's top brass. No wonder the reformation happened.

July 15, 2017 - 17:13

Brody Rodriguez

no, the books themselves, so that I can download them

July 15, 2017 - 17:14

Benjamin King

I don't get it. Why do the Catholics worship virgin Mary? She was just an ordinary human.

July 15, 2017 - 17:14

Isaac Reyes

...

July 15, 2017 - 17:16

Carter Butler

As far as I can trace my ancestors besides one branch of my family are all Catholic, so I am not going to simply convert away out of political convince, but this is growing infuriating.

At this point, I can only hope we get a new pope before the damage is too deep to the institution.

July 15, 2017 - 17:17

Ryan Morales

hah

July 15, 2017 - 17:18

Jayden Price

Im going to church for the second week since a long period of time (10+ years). I'm also reading the bible again and watch a lot of video's on the faith to refamiliarize myself with it. The only trouble I still have is praying. I dont know how and what to say. Got any tips?

July 15, 2017 - 17:19

Jonathan Baker

>Unheard of "traditions" like declaring Mary as co-redeemer of Christ

This is a theological opinion that is not doctrine.

>Christ is the ONLY intercessor and redeemer
That stands against the scriptures, as He is our only redeemer but we are all called to be intercessors for one another. By Paul, namely.

>giving the pope the status of infallibility

Such an authority extends from Jesus' authority given to Peter, of whom the pope stands in the office of. And further infallibility is a power that the office can exercise, not a passive trait of the one that is pope.

I have more info on this here:
pastebin.com/Gq0Rf4TL

July 15, 2017 - 17:20

Nathan Hernandez

Keep up the good work Wolf
If only Skullcross was still around

July 15, 2017 - 17:22

Jason Hughes

Catholicism esteems human tradition & culture over that of the ways of God, its basis is rooted upon human decrees, they are unable to argue from the Bible, instead it has to rely on Vatican-sanctioned histories, they use idols, pray through false intercessors like Saints & Mary, even though Jesus alone is the way to the Father, they instituted pagan festivals & holidays, and even presumptuously assume the power to remit sin. In their Catechism they tampered with God's Law -- removed the 2nd commandment, altered the 4th, and split the 10th to preserve the # (fulfilling Daniel 7). The history of Catholicism has been one of Satanic abuse employing political & martial power to exert their will. The only Biblical argument they use for Popery is "Peter is the rock of the church" yet that isn't a justification for Papal hierarchical arrangement whatsoever -- read the books written by Peter, he never in anyway condones such an architecture. Upon the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the Church was small, far-flung, and fragile, and so Peter was raised up to clarify questions and give context to the example laid by Christ to the early church -- so yes, in this way the "church was built on the rock of Peter" which is to say, his teachings & clarifications -- not the man or any man -- Jesus is the foundation on which we must place our faith completely.
Orthodox have many of the same problems as Catholicism.
Faggot-sects of Jesuit-infiltrated "Protestantism" have lost their balls and are no longer standing up against the seat of the Antichrist power which is Popery and most still false sabbath. Although the early Reformers didn't agree on much, they got the ball rolling and agreed that Papacy was illegitimate.

>Comprehensive history of the Reformation & Catholic blasphemy
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF170B126002E7CB0

July 15, 2017 - 17:22

Henry Brooks

tfw identify and call myself Catholic but don't go to church.

Would god be mad?

July 15, 2017 - 17:24

Jacob Cruz

reminder: Sunday worship is blasphemous.
>And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws (Daniel 7:25)
The verse in question predicted the eventual breaking of the law as far back in Daniels time, this is something the pharisees didn't even dare to do.
>Catholic Dr. Johann Eck, Luther’s principal adversary, said this in 1533:
There is no mention of the cessation of the Sabbath and the institution of Sunday in the gospels or in Paul's writings, or in all the Bible; therefore, this has taken place by the apostolic Church instituting it without scripture.
The church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. There is in truth something royal, something kingly about the sun, making it a fitting emblem of Jesus, the sun of justice. Hence the church in these countries would seem to have said, "keep the old pagan name, it shall remain consecrated, sanctified." And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus.ii
The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church, as a spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant world.iii
The Bible says “Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day”. The Catholic church says “No! By my divine power, I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week,” and lo, the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church.iv
It pleased the church of God that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the Lord's day (Sunday).v

The laws and times mentioned in Daniel 7:25 are laws that God Himself has established and time that God Himself has set. The law that stands out throughout the Bible is the Ten Commandment law.

July 15, 2017 - 17:24

Josiah Mitchell

Oh.
Well.
I have no access to such things. I'm sorry.

Well excellent stuff, user. I did something similar, though I was an atheist (Naturalist) by the time I was doing it all. Good job, man.

Anything I can assist you with in regard with the schism? I am Catholic, yes, but I do try to be fair.

>not linking me

Seriously though, link it and I'll add it next time I'm able. Most of the stuff already is community added.

July 15, 2017 - 17:24

Nathaniel Ward

All I know is, it makes me mad.

Too many "cultural" Catholics around these days. Stop living this vain life and come back to the Church for real.

July 15, 2017 - 17:26

Jace Bell

>Where is Popery & the Papal hierarchy sanctioned in the Bible?
refer to my first post regarding Peter being the rock having nothing to do with Popery
>When does God say that His Law can be amended by the edicts of men?
>Where in the Bible does it say you can pray through Saints & Mary?
>Why does God forbid using idols, trinkets, & devices during your prayers?
>Where does God ever imply that as a fallen race any of your flawed works can contribute to your salvation whatsoever?
>Why does God warn us in Daniel and Revelation that this whore Church would change His Law & presume godlike authority?
>Why did Rome change the solemnity of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?
Sunday worship is a mark of their perceived authority & supreme jurisdiction. see previous post

>Why does the Catholic Church & its system of Popery sit on the wrong side of all these questions and fit the criteria of the antichrist beast power of Daniel & Revelation?

copy/paste link for complete playlist
youtube.com/watch?v=aVrgsbw_Nmk&index=14&list=PL6BB648B46654467F
The Papal Echelon is the seat of Antichrist power of Daniel & Revelation.

July 15, 2017 - 17:26

Sebastian Johnson

You don't necessarily have to. But given his role he would be important to listen to even if you do reject it ultimately.

Catholics do not worship Mary. They respect her greatly.

July 15, 2017 - 17:28

Jacob Hill

The question i have for you Catholics is where did you guys get the authority to pray to anyone but God? Throughout the entire Old Testament and the New Testament all the prophets and all the disciples and even Jesus himself only prayed to God but Catholics pray to Mary, they Pray to angels and they pray to saints, seems very unbiblical when did that tradition start? The bible very clearly condemns worshiping anyone but God

>And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: WORSHIP GOD

Revelation 19:10

July 15, 2017 - 17:29

Michael Nguyen

>dont know how and what to say. Got any tips?

Just pray when you need stuff , or if a guy is sick you pray for him to get better , or just talk to god about stuff

July 15, 2017 - 17:29

Connor Taylor

Gotta say wolf, as a non-Christian, these threads are pretty comfy and the architecture and art are great.

Google the difference between Adoration and Veneration.

July 15, 2017 - 17:33

Mason Gutierrez

Ah its you again trying to wake up the sheeple ,good job but its pretty useless , the blind stay blind its hard to change your opinion on something when your whole faith is constructed from it

July 15, 2017 - 17:35

Levi Sanchez

I'll ask a question since it's been on my mind for a while.
I don't see God as a person, but believe it's an experience. It isn't something external but internal. I see the stories and characters in the bible as metaphors or ways of explaining complicated concepts like emotions.
What religion is a belief like mine? If I try and explain it like this to my catholic/christian family they get upset and fearful.

July 15, 2017 - 17:35

Ethan Nguyen

Very overplayed stuff, that whole Catholic pedophilia scandal.

Well I definitely can't just sit through all that crap but I'll answer your questions:

>Where is Popery & the Papal hierarchy sanctioned in the Bible?

The authority given uniquely to Peter by Jesus in the Bible as opposed to the authority given to the rest of the apostles.

>When does God say that His Law can be amended by the edicts of men?

God does not and such a view is heretical to the Catholic Church.

>Where in the Bible does it say you can pray through Saints & Mary?

"Pray through"? You are mixed up. Catholics ask saints to pray for them. It is called prayer as the communication comes from their union with God.

There is a mention of saints gathering prayers in the Book of Revelation and the reference to our actions still maintaining a "cloud of witnesses", saying that those who perish still watch over us. And Jesus mentions joy in Heaven over a sinner repenting in the Book of Luke. They couldn't be joyous if they were unable to know of whats going on there. And most obviously - St. Paul affirms that we live after death and also affirms intercession to be done on behalf of all people. He, nor anyone, says that once you're in Heaven you're no longer part of that anymore.

part 1/2

July 15, 2017 - 17:47

Chase Collins

part 2/2

>Why does God forbid using idols, trinkets, & devices during your prayers?

God forbids idols insofar as they are the worship of the non-divine and confuse the relationship between God and creation. God says nothing about the use of devices and trinkets during prayer in scripture.

>Where does God ever imply that...

God doesn't, nor does the Catholic Church state that. You cannot earn salvation. Justification comes about from faith perfected by works. Easier said as "faith and works". This is because the grace of God works in us to both desire and work towards righteousness.

>Why does God warn us in Daniel and Revelation...

Because it would occur.

>Why did Rome change...

This is a misunderstanding. The Sabbath was not moved. The Sabbath is a Jewish tradition. Jesus brought the New Covenant and begot worship on the Lord's Day (Sunday). This is seen in Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2.

Hell, it's in the Didache too if you wish to see historical record of the apostolic age teaching outside Acts and Paul's letters:

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

July 15, 2017 - 17:48

Isaiah Scott

A great deception is coming soon, full blown Rev. 13:13 stuff, crisis and mass brainwash hysteria and a coming Sunday Law + persecution of the saints. We should count ourselves quite honored to live within the span of the closing events -- stay true, study, pray.
I feel largely ineffectual confined in the tedium of mass confusion & falsehood permeating and growing all around us. I sense that I'm merely casting pearls before swine, but we need to be blowing the trumpet.

Gather your oil brother, the groom is at the door.
youtube.com/watch?v=h3kDDlG7_M8
youtube.com/watch?v=lNVCcph6cnI

July 15, 2017 - 17:51

Camden Young

God doesn't get mad. It is a sin, however.
You could be improving yourself via worship and the sacrament and yet you don't go. Further, you do not give proper respect to the topics the mass is about by missing it. There could be good reason, however. I do not know your circumstance.

Holy Days of Obligation include:

>All Sundays
>day of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ
>the Epiphany
>the Ascension of Christ
>the feast of the Body and Blood of Christi
>the feast of Mary the Mother of God
>her Immaculate Conception
>her Assumption
>the feast of Saint Joseph
>the feast of the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul
>the feast of All Saints

I could help you more with stuff if you're interested.

Also you make mad and that can't be good.

Thanks. We do paintings too.
Feel free to ask questions or be critical of different things as you see fit. We'll respond as able.

July 15, 2017 - 17:58

Jason Edwards

>The authority given uniquely to Peter by Jesus in the Bible as opposed to the authority given to the rest of the apostles.
That's funny, have you ever read the books of Peter? He never in anyway condones such an architecture. Upon the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the Church was small, far-flung, and fragile, and so Peter was raised up to clarify questions and give context to the example laid by Christ to the early church -- so yes, in this way the "church was built on the rock of Peter" which is to say, his teachings & clarifications -- not the man or any man -- Jesus is the foundation on which we must place our faith completely.
>God does not and such a view is heretical to the Catholic Church.
Catholic Catechism removed the 2nd commandment, changed the 4th, then split the 10th to make up for the number change. Time & dates were changed (solemnity of the Sabbath ) Pagan Christmas was sanctioned etc.
>"Pray through"? You are mixed up. Catholics ask saints to pray for them. It is called prayer as the communication comes from their union with God.
That's a form of praying through. You're asking "saints" (some of whom were Catholic butchers who killed thousands of God's humble Protestant workers) to intercede on your behalf when only Jesus can qualify us and go to the Father on our behalf. They're still in the grave anyways and haven't been resurrected yet.
>Because it would occur.
...and it has, the Vatican whore Church with it's bastardized "pseudo-Protestant" harlot daughters (who have signed ecumenical treaties with Rome, have fulfilled Daniel 7.
>The Sabbath is a Jewish tradition
The Sabbath was instituted by God as a specific day and is eternal & unchanging. It's part of the Law and in Matthew Jesus reiterated the continuity of the Law explicitly. Your devil catechism mutilated it.

July 15, 2017 - 18:00

Ayden Richardson

Keep in mind, some erroneously claim the Law is done away with, often citing...
Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

>two great commandments: Love God & Love your Neighbor
>On these two great commandments hang all the LAW
The first 4 commandments outline how we show our love to God
the last 6 commandments outline how we are to relate to our neighbors
>The 10 commandments are still in effect. (Matthew 5)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

July 15, 2017 - 18:02

Jason Lee

>The question i have for you Catholics is where did you guys get the authority to pray to anyone but God?

This is moreso a linguistic issue. When Catholics or Orthodox "pray to saints" actually what they are doing is asking them to pray for them, akin to me asking you to pray for me. That asking is called prayer as we only can communicate to them due to their union with God. It is not understood as worship.

For further reference I responded to such a question in this post at the bottom.

July 15, 2017 - 18:03

Julian Bell

Lord have mercy. I don't know who to send next. Guide my shaking hand. The truth won't wash. My sins are yours to forgive.

You said he's just a friend.
And you said he's just a friend.
Oh, baby you.
You got what I neeeeed.

July 15, 2017 - 18:07

Justin Lewis

>ignores Jewish veneration of angels
Yes we know it exists. Documents at Qumran for instance showed us this. Don't forget the high view given to Michael the Archangel. Also a characteristic of Judaism at the time of the NT.

July 15, 2017 - 18:07

Nicholas Hall

How many pedos do I need to help hide their crimes to be considered virtuous by the cathocuck, kike owned, church, white looking kike named Jesus Cesar Borgia?

Also why do ratfaced rapists occupy most of the top slots in your faggoty organization?

July 15, 2017 - 18:13

Christopher Sanders

From your own answer you are telling me that you made up praying to idols and not God based on a verse in revelation that you didnt even link? Doesnt sound right too me also Paul did not pray to anyone but God, he did not pray to Mosses or to Elijah or to the angel Michael for intercession he prayed to GOD ALONE for help just like every other disciple and prophet before him, this is my problem with Catholicism its obviously has pagan elements to it that have no biblical foundation

>And they left all the commandments of the Lord their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven,

2 Kings 17:16

July 15, 2017 - 18:15

Ryan Rogers

It's as simple as this

youtube.com/watch?v=EUcDqUEZY3w

July 15, 2017 - 18:16

Carson Myers

>That's funny, have you...

I don't get what you're trying to argue here. You hardly address my comment.
Peter was given these authorities to which the church was started when he got the name 'Peter' and stopped being simply called 'Simon'. He was not raised up AFTER Jesus death unless you reference Pentecost. The authority given to him was done by Jesus - in person - before being arrested and killed on the cross.

Pic related for future reference to Peter as the rock.

>2nd Commandment

That is a can of worms I do not want to sift through at the moment. Here's a link:

catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/did-the-catholic-church-change-the-ten-commandments

I already spoke to you about the Sabbath and gave scriptural citation. And Christmas' date comes from it being 9 months after the Annunciation.

>That's a form of praying through.

Right, which is why it's called praying and yet not considered the same thing as praying to God.

>when only Jesus can qualify us and go to the Father on our behalf.

Yes...? And what's wrong with asking for intercession? It's literally asked for everyone to do for one another by St. Paul in the Bible. And I gave scriptural references to the awareness of those in Heaven. You're combating the Bible for not being for your Christian beliefs now.

>the Vatican whore Church with...

Same old bullshit. Come when you have an argument.

>The Sabbath was instituted by...

You're going to have to give citation and also contend the argument I already have with my own scriptural citation.

>Keep in mind, some...

I have never heard those verses be used to defend the claim. Honestly, I'm not sure how the claim could be relevant.

Paul's Letter to the Hebrews is good evidence of the New Covenant. The Levitical priesthood is done away with for one based on the New Covenant in Hebrews 7, you get very blatant lines like "in speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete" and the sort. Jesus fulfilled Mosaic Law.

July 15, 2017 - 18:21

Dylan Cooper

A high view of angels and their invocation is present in Judaic tradition so your question is already void. Even worse, one of the pslams even invokes the angels to praise and worship god. Huh I thought we are not suppose to invoke those beings but only God.

Funny isn't it?

And Revelations is simply appropriating what is known as an angel refusal tradition which itself is known to accept the veneration of angels. In Revelations the use of the refusal tradition was to emphasize Christology and thus tells us nothing about their veneration. The same book also includes the invocation of dead individuals to rejoice as well

July 15, 2017 - 18:23

Daniel Peterson

Why do you not follow the Bible?
It is the word of the Lord.
youtu.be/3_2T47PAIkM

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians
2:16/21
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

3:6-11
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

5:4-5
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

July 15, 2017 - 18:27

David Ross

>Seriously though, link it and I'll add it next time I'm able. Most of the stuff already is community added.

Here is the link.
youtube.com/watch?v=36Y_ztEW1NE

This will be my all time favorite. Idk what it is but it has something divine to it. It is like being home again. I miss our fathers garden.

July 15, 2017 - 18:27

Austin Jenkins

forgot pic

July 15, 2017 - 18:28

Levi Carter

cucktholic

Fuck you and your anti-White jewish cult.

July 15, 2017 - 18:28

Dylan Nelson

>Im going to church for the...

I just now realized I hadn't got back to you actually. I am so sorry, man.
Well first off congratulations on getting back into it man. It's always good to see someone improving themselves. Before I get into prayer it would be important to clarify what prayer is. I did a write up for others some time ago that could help here:

>There are absolutely tons of forms of Christian prayer, to the point it is best defined as an application of the mind and heart towards union with God, whether this be petition, song, meditation, thanksgiving, contemplation, intercession (prayer on behalf of another), asking someone in Heaven to pray for you, or done with any formality or length. The desire for God in the prayer does not need be explicit either. The point of it is greater communion with God and through that we come to meet the mark to receive what God had planned for us or others. Prayer is largely a "meeting the mark" process and method for individual growth.

>Because of this, it is improper to view prayer as wish-fulfillment or simply therapeutic. It is both efficacious and therapeutic. Your prayers are always answered as you are always given what God has willed for were ready for at that time and as God is sovereign over all things.

I hope that helped. Now for prayers itself there are two ways to go:

1. Find famous prayers that touch you (I recommend reflections.yale.edu/article/seize-day-vocation-calling-work/merton-prayer ) and read them yourself. Like with mass, the structure is a ideal model for you to conform yourself to. Don't simply read the prayer but feel and conform yourself with it as well.

2. Speak openly. To speak in prayer properly is a gift and you did well being at a loss to begin with. With what prayer is in mind, speak openly. The rest will come.

July 15, 2017 - 18:30

Gabriel Jackson

>A high view of angels and their invocation is present in Judaic tradition

So what are Catholic's the Jewish pharisees now? Using Judaism as your augment is never a good start

>Even worse, one of the pslams even invokes the angels to praise and worship god.

Post the verse in psalms where a HUMAN prays to an angel i will wait....

> In Revelations the use of the refusal tradition was to emphasize Christology and thus tells us nothing about their veneration. The same book also includes the invocation of dead individuals to rejoice as well

The word Invocation or Veneration is not found in the bible just made up Catholic stuff

July 15, 2017 - 18:33

Jaxson Clark

Catholic priests do sexual assault at a smaller rate than school teachers and other denominations. They just get all the attention because there was a cover up from some higher ups and because of the importance of the church.

prospect.org/article/next-christian-sex-abuse-scandal

themediareport.com/2013/10/02/evangelical-sex-abuse-worse-than-catholic-church/

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2010/08/09/now-we-have-real-evidence-–-sexual-abuse-is-not-a-‘catholic-problem’/

catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/9-myths-about-priestly-pedophilia.html

awkwardmomentsbible.com/shocking-pastors-on-the-prowl/

themediareport.com/fast-facts/

shoebat.com/2014/05/06/sexual-abuse-protestant-churches-catholic/

christiancentury.org/article/2013-10/evangelicals-worse-catholics-sexual-abuse

cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/

lifesitenews.com/news/forgotten-study-abuse-in-school-100-times-worse-than-by-priests

Further, they have done much to respond:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_response_to_Catholic_sexual_abuse_cases

And your anti-semitism comes from Christian circles.

July 15, 2017 - 18:34

Aiden Smith

will need more than 1 post to finish complete response
>Acts 20:7
"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."

Here, at last, we find a religious meeting on the first day of the week, but it was not a "Sunday meeting," that is, a church service. . Notice, Paul continued his speech until midnight, and verse 8 says, "There were many lamps in the upper room where they were gathered together." It indeed occurred after sunset, before midnight, thus on the first day of the week. This meeting and Paul's preaching—at most, it was what we would call a Bible study today—took place during the hours we now call Saturday night.
However, it is clear from subsequent verses that Paul and his companions treated this first day of the week, beginning at sundown, as a normal workday. Paul's companions sailed around a peninsula from Troas to Assos (verse 13)—a distance of fifty or sixty miles—while Paul, afoot, walked overland more than 19 miles (verses 11, 14). His companions were engaged in the labor of rowing and sailing a boat while Paul was preaching that Saturday night. Then, at the break of day Sunday morning, he set out to walk from Troas to Assos—a good hard day's work! He would not do this except on a common workday!
This scripture says nothing about anything being done weekly or customarily. It simply relates the events of this one particular first day of the week. The first-century church kept the Lord's Supper once each year on the Passover (I Corinthians 11:24).
That "the disciples came together to break bread" means merely that they gathered to eat a meal. This expression was commonly used to designate a meal in past times (see Luke 24:30; Acts 2:46; 27:35 for further examples of "breaking bread). Scripture interprets it only as eating a meal, not as a Communion service.

July 15, 2017 - 18:36

Easton Wilson

Catholicism esteems human tradition & culture over that of the ways of God, its basis is rooted upon human decrees, they are unable to argue from the Bible, instead it has to rely on Vatican-sanctioned histories, they use idols, pray through false intercessors like Saints & Mary, even though Jesus alone is the way to the Father, they instituted pagan festivals & holidays, and even presumptuously assume the power to remit sin. In their Catechism they tampered with God's Law -- removed the 2nd commandment, altered the 4th, and split the 10th to preserve the # (fulfilling Daniel 7). The history of Catholicism has been one of Satanic abuse employing political & martial power to exert their will. The only Biblical argument they use for Popery is "Peter is the rock of the church" yet that isn't a justification for Papal hierarchical arrangement whatsoever -- read the books written by Peter, he never in anyway condones such an architecture. Upon the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the Church was small, far-flung, and fragile, and so Peter was raised up to clarify questions and give context to the example laid by Christ to the early church -- so yes, in this way the "church was built on the rock of Peter" which is to say, his teachings & clarifications -- not the man or any man -- Jesus is the foundation on which we must place our faith completely.
Orthodox have many of the same problems as Catholicism.
Faggot-sects of Jesuit-infiltrated "Protestantism" have lost their balls and are no longer standing up against the seat of the Antichrist power which is Popery and most still false sabbath. Although the early Reformers didn't agree on much, they got the ball rolling and agreed that Papacy was illegitimate.

>Comprehensive history of the Reformation & Catholic blasphemy
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF170B126002E7CB0

Catholics and the Vatican created Islam
redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/04apr/catholicislam.html

July 15, 2017 - 18:39

Hunter Sanders

(1/2 for the Cor. 16:2) post
>1 Cor. 16:2
"On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper that there be no collections when I come." Often we see this text printed on the little offering envelopes in the pews of churches, and many preach that this text sets Sunday as the time for taking up the church collection for doing God's work and paying the minister and church expenses.

Verse 1 tells us what kind of collection is being made: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also." First, it is a collection—not for the preacher, evangelism, or church expenses—but "for the saints." The members of the church in Jerusalem were suffering from drought and famine. They needed, not money, but food.
Notice that Paul had given similar instruction to other churches. He tells the Romans:
But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia [where Corinth is located] to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem. Therefore, when I have performed this and have sealed to them this fruit, I shall go by way of you to Spain. (Romans 15:25-28)

July 15, 2017 - 18:40

Brandon Wright

It was not money, but fruit that was being prepared for shipment to the poor saints at Jerusalem! The Greek word can also refer to grain, wine, and other produce that can be stored a long time without spoiling.
In I Corinthians 16:2, does Paul say they should give money at a church service? Not at all! He says, "Let each one of you lay something aside, storing up. . . ." Note this! He is telling them to put something aside for a special use, to store it—at home! Why? Because Paul did not want there be any collecting done when he arrived. He wanted this gift for the Jerusalem church to be ready for shipment.

"And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem. But if it is fitting that I go also, they [more than one] will go with me" (verses 3-4). Apparently it was going to require several men to carry this collection, gathered and stored up, to Jerusalem. If it were a tithe or offering for the minister or to spread the gospel, Paul could have carried the money alone.

Thus, once again, the first day of the week is a workday, a day for gathering fruit and food out of the orchards, fields, and gardens, and for storing it up. This labor was to be done on the first day as soon as the Sabbath was past!

Upon honest examination, not one of the texts speaking about "the first day of the week" sets it apart as a rest day. Not one makes it holy, calls it the Sabbath or by any other sacred title. In every case, the first day of the week was a common workday. In none of them was there a religious meeting and preaching service being held on the hours we now call Sunday. In none of them can we find a single shred of Bible authority for Sunday observance!

July 15, 2017 - 18:40

Jaxon Nelson

already here, brother

July 15, 2017 - 18:41

Carter Wood

The Catholic Church follows the Bible and compiled the biblical canon.

>check out this two hour video
No.

The Catholic position is that the grace of God works in us to both desire and work towards righteousness. What begins as faith is followed always and necessarily by works as works perfect faith. The capacity for justification itself is merited for us by the Passion of Christ. As such justification comes from "faith and works" not one or another. Your Ephesians verses and Galatian verses don't contradict this.

Thanks! This is beautiful.

July 15, 2017 - 18:42

Josiah Anderson

>too autistic for marriage
>too isolated for single life
>too apathetic for the priesthood
>too non-commital for religious life

Halp

July 15, 2017 - 18:42

Grayson Collins

>using Jewish tradition is bad
It isn't especially when it is the entire background for the emergence of Christianity. So this is a redundant point to make.

Psalm 148

1Praise ye theLord.

Praise ye theLordfrom the heavens:
praise him in the heights.
2Praise ye him, all his angels:
praise ye him, all his hosts.
3Praise ye him, sun and moon:
praise him, all ye stars of light.
4Praise him, ye heavens of heavens,
and ye waters thatbeabove the heavens.

Living beings are entreated to praise God but by your logic we are not suppose to invoke them. Looks like the Pslamist is going to hell

>The word Invocation or Veneration is not found in the bible just made up Catholic stuff

It isn't. Because those two things or at the very least acts that look like them are already present in both OT and NT.

July 15, 2017 - 18:43

Camden Young

>I don't get what you're trying to argue here. You hardly address my comment.
I think I did, but you've placed your faith in a human institution over that of God's direct word, so I don't think quoting the Bible anymore will sway your in any way.
Apostolic succession has not basis in Biblical reality, Peter was tasked with clarifying the basic truths derived by Jesus into a coherent form for the early Church which was already showing signs of discord early on.

>that is a can of worms.
..you don't say.

>Same old bullshit. Come when you have an argument.
Oh yeah, you're right about that, we've had you identified for quite some time now.
whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc5.html

Sin is the transgression of the Law, without the Law there would be no Sin, without the reality of Sin & the Law, there would be no need for a Savior. By butchering the Law (in your devil Catechism) you're lessening the centrality of Christ's sacrifice.

Remember although we have been tainted by the effects of sin, it can be overcome through faith in Christ through faith who overcame it -- we will never be tempted beyond which we can bear. It was promised. When you feel your nature failings, lift your mind toward Christ and pray for deliverance from evil.
1 Corinthians 10:13
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Good works are the fruits of having faith in Christ and conforming your character to His -- as a fallen race nothing we can offer to God is able to atone for sin-debt, only accepting the perfect & complete work of Christ's sacrifice. Good works are a byproduct of having a Christ-like character, not an end in itself.

July 15, 2017 - 18:44

James Wilson

Roman Catholic Jesuits persecuted Protestants after the Reformation & Renaissance. In order to escape persecution from the Catholic Church, secret societies were formed such as the Masons and it was these good Masons who founded the United States of America. The U.S.A. was founded on the principles of the Renaissance and Reformation, it reflected a "New Order of The Ages" where we the people were sovereign and no one was sovereign over us.

In the U.S. there was no sovereign king, queen or pope. The government was meant to be the servant of the people, this was the "Novus Ordo Seclorum" or "New Order of the Ages" which is the opposite of the Old World Order. By the mid 1800's the Jesuits' had infiltrated and taken over their arch enemies, the Masons. The Jesuits set about with the purpose of disrupting and causing confusion in the Masons. In America Jesuit Albert Pike promptly announced that the god of the Masons was 'Lucifer' turning he Masons 180 degrees in the opposite direction from which they came. Morals & Dogma - Pike emphasizes the god of the Freemason's is Lucifer: The Jesuits also turned the Novus Ordo Seclorum ("New Order of the Ages") started in the USA, in the opposite direction calling the Old World Order the "New World Order".
libertyforlife.com/nwo/albert_pike.htm

July 15, 2017 - 18:44

Liam Butler

larryhurtado.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/oxford-dss-handbook-angels-christology-monotheism1.pdf

I implore all sides to use reason and proper sources

July 15, 2017 - 18:47

Oliver Diaz

I probably am gonna sleep now, been up most of the day.
continue your studies (precept upon precept, the Bible is internally consistent so the things you read gain context in light of the complete picture OT & NT are akin to complimentary strands of DNA), pray, ask for truth and be self-critical regarding the things you've learned and the things you think you know. You cannot rely on human doings and human traditions, only the word, which is the truth of God and the faith of Christ.

g'night fellows.

July 15, 2017 - 18:49

Elijah Phillips

God bless everyone, viva Catolica

July 15, 2017 - 18:50

Owen Anderson

Stop reading because by doing that you are relying on yourself and on men. The only way for your view to make sense is that we have no free will for that is the only way for you not to be able to rely on any man

July 15, 2017 - 18:51

Carter Nelson

Why would you ask for someone to pray for you?
do some saints have more union to God than others?

July 15, 2017 - 18:53

Julian Roberts

That verse doesn't prove you can pray to angles or saints not even close, that verse is calling on the angels and the heavenly hosts to praise God, it doesn't say humans can praise them, what a leap of logic the immediate next verse says

>Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

God is a jealous God he only wants you to worship him just like he only wants his angels to worship him like in the verse you just posted

>For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

Exodus 34:14

The ancient Israelite's worshiped Gods heavenly hosts instead of him like posted earlier and he judged them because of it

>And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and WORSHIPPED ALL THE HOSTS OF HEAVEN,

>Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

July 15, 2017 - 18:54

Asher Richardson

whats the opinion on reggae?

July 15, 2017 - 18:54

Andrew Carter

>catholics differentiate between fish meat and meat of other animals when fasting

July 15, 2017 - 19:02

Andrew Murphy

The point is that the verse invokes angels. But by your logic, invoking dead individuals or even angels are wrong but we see the Pslamist doing the same thing. It doesn't matter if the Pslamist is asking them to praise God. The point is, angels had been invoked.

So again show me why invoking angels are wrong because if such is indeed wrong, there is zero basis for any veneration of saints

July 15, 2017 - 19:03

Brody Brooks

I forgot to add. Notice I said nothing about praising them in that post I made. Because the point was demonstrating their invocation

July 15, 2017 - 19:04

Evan Rivera

I heard Christianity says people don't exist as men and women in heaven. Explain this to me.

July 15, 2017 - 19:08

Josiah Williams

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,

Interesting

July 15, 2017 - 19:08

Camden Diaz

Everyone is a mutilated tranny in heaven

July 15, 2017 - 19:10

Noah Nelson

He is not invoking the angels at all the definition of invoke is "to petition for help or support" he is calling on the angels to worship God not for help or support big difference, When you pray to Angels or invoke thme you ask them for help or support like the defintion says, Post one just one bible verse of someone praying to an angel or a saint for help or support just one

July 15, 2017 - 19:13

Matthew Garcia

Revelation 19
>10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

We have nothing to do with angels thats why angels names are rarely mentioned , they are messengers

July 15, 2017 - 19:15

Nathaniel Martinez

No it wasn't because David wasnt praising them he was telling them to praise God

>Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

July 15, 2017 - 19:15

Isaiah Baker

What version of the Bible is best for a catholic?

How do I get stronger faith and convictions of my faith?

July 15, 2017 - 19:18

Elijah Williams

>will need more than 1 post to finish complete response

I'd recommend writing it all out and then copy/pasting it part by part. I've had to do this lots.

But it seems you're big on copypasting already as the sum of the text you write in

comes from this link:

cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/135/Sunday-Worship-New-Testament.htm

And if you want to argue with citing a link, I'll do the same to you:

catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/changing-the-sabbath

catholic.com/tract/sabbath-or-sunday

Well you will have to work on yourself. What guilt you have is to motivate you to act. We can't get it started for you, nor can anyone but yourself.

>I think I did, but you've placed your faith...

God's direct word is the authority from which the human institution comes about though, so... what? All my arguments with you so far stemmed from the Bible, sans the Didache reference. Apostolic succession is L I T E R A L L Y unanimously defended and was never criticized until second generation Protestants rejected it in the 16th century. Conferring the office of bishop via the laying on of hands is referenced, getting replacement archbishops is referenced. These practices were ONLY understood in regards to a transmission of grace until the 16th-17th century.

>more links for arguments
>link is Wycliffe of all things instead of being relevant to the Harlot claim
nope, not at this time of night

>Sin is the transgression of the Law...

This is largely true butthe butchering comment comes out of no where. You need to learn to argue your point with those that disagree with you. You beg the question so much that I can't see what your argument even is.

>Good works are the fruits of having faith

This is incorrect as the grace of God works in us to both desire and work towards righteousness. Not simply desire and the work comes from the desire.

July 15, 2017 - 19:19

Gavin Gutierrez

>For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And even jesus prayed to the father for help from angels

>53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

July 15, 2017 - 19:21

Oliver Cruz

Nope. To invoke also means to call upon which is what the Pslamist done. When I say I "invoke" something it means I am calling it at the very least and this was precisely what the Pslamist done. Simply narrowing definitions is not going to help here as this act of calling upon the saints is a fundamental in their veneration. So why did the Pslamist call upon angels to begin with? By your logic it is wrong and so far all you done is simply narrow down the definition of "Invoke" which does not help at all

In context the author draws from the angel refusal tradition and he himself had bowed to an angel before that and no rebuke was given. Secondly this could also imply that John is equal to the angel and thus says nothing about ordinary believers venerating saints

Again he is invoking angels. Your logic is invoking angels or saints are wrong. But the Pslamist does just that

July 15, 2017 - 19:22

Asher Hall

>ywn never go to Versailles chapel to listen to Monteverdi's vespras

July 15, 2017 - 19:23

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