Can you convert me to Christ through reason?

I'm into apologetics and watched James R White talk about and debate Ehman a bit. Ehrman makes some striking points that early Christianity really didn't see Jesus as god until the council of Nicaea. Nothing was even written about him for up to 20 years until after his death. The book of John also wasn't consistent with Mark, Matthew, and Luke in saying Jesus declared himself god. Basically i think Jesus probably attained some divine state like the buddha, but should only serve as a guide for how to be, not the object of worship

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
youtu.be/3_2T47PAIkM
newadvent.org/summa/
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

bump .. writing...

Ok. Scientist (PhD) here. Until I was 26 I had no faith. I then realised that I was living a life of despair (no hope)...

I decided to set aside a portion of my life (like an hour per week) to think about spirituality (for example, hoping for Heaven, fearing Hell). I started reading the major religious books. The bible was very different than the others.

So why pick christianity over the others? Having faith is reasonable, but there should be a reason for choosing a certain one

I decided that Christianity is the most optimistic theory of existence that I could find or think up. At 33yo I was baptized.

Jews and vaginas will save you. You can save yourself. What logic is there here on the pear earth?

It seems to make little sense for humans any time before Christ.. imagine living 11000 or 34000 years ago.. what is even the point of life for them. Or anyone not near Israel, what's the point? Seems silly and Jew-centric

You can't accept he's God because of Pride

No i can't accept it because:
1) this wasn't anywhere near the consensus until hundreds of years after the event
2) there are inconsistencies between the 4 main books as to what Jesus claimed, John being the odd one out
3) I intuitively find it hard to believe god would incarnate as man AND let there be ambiguity or dispute afterward about it

I was still worried tho. I had decided to live my life as optimistically as possible, and thus have as much hope as I could (I consider this to be a form of faith), but I didn't have (or want) blind faith. And what if I was living my live with this hope but it wasn't the truth?

I ultimately decided that faith that truth exists at all is exactly equivalent to faith in God.

Related to this, I interprete a passage differently than most...

Aight I got one for you Mr Atheist man.

If atheist God was real, then how come mommy says he loves me lots and lots? KEEPING IN MIND that mommy would never lie to me and that I am her special boy

Checkmate

... Where Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life"' I think he meant that He is literally the personification of truth.

Of course, the bible may still be inaccurate.... but I like lifing with hope more than without it.

>Can you convert me to Christ through reason?

No. Faith is not a matter of reason or intellect.

You can't reason your way into heaven or forgiveness.

If you don't believe you need to be forgiven, then why even want to be converted?

No one can prove that God exists. Either you have the desire to believe (faith) or not. Reason will not get you there, and subsequently to the ultimate goal which is repentance -> forgiveness.

Just believe won't save you, so why should I waste time reasoning with you about God's existence (which is a dead end anyway, by definition you cannot prove God's existence).

You think you're so smart and wise, but by creating this very thread you only reveal your own ignorance.

John offered a 'theologian' perspective. The faith and free will part is important otherwise he'd be like a dictator. Him being a regular guy (son of carpenter) is important too, Matthew is good for newbs

Start by not thinking of god or faith as a noun and the prevention of worshipping false earthly empty shit, be it leads you no where user.

As in, anyone before Christ can't be saved? That does sound wrong to me.

>Having faith is reasonable
How is it reasonable?

>Faith is not a matter of reason or intellect.
Exactly.

The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.

I already have this view. The point is christianity specifically

It is reasonable to ask Christ to accept the punishment that you might be due. What do you have to lose?

If faith and free will are important, does God know the future of choices I'll make?

Because it's a coward's perspective. You want saved from a boogeyman invention called hell instead of being a good person. That's why most people are Christian and it's sickening

You can't reason yourself into faith.
But, you can parse out the truth regarding the schism between religion and spirituality if you were so inclined.

Only 2% of humans that have ever lived and died came before Christ. Not saying that's reason enough to answer your question.

But I believe that Orthodox Christianity teaches that Christ went to Hell/Hades/Underworld/Purgatory during the three days after he was killed and before he was risen to save those souls.

Somewhere to start.

What do you have to lose by asking Sathya Sai Baba into your heart?

No but I don't have any scripture memorized to back up my claim

But before that you must have a repentant conscience, which OP clearly does not have. The moron even believes he can be a 'good person'.

There's no point reasoning with morons like this. They cannot be saved because they are prideful and have a seared conscience.

>God can be realized only in the realms of human experience

We were made in Gods image. When we lovingly sacrifice for another, we project an image of Jeasus into the eyes of witnesses, and their faith that love exists can be restored, and God is glorified.

i don't think you can be converted through reason. you'll have a road to damascus moment if you're looking for one though

That's fine, just as long as you're consistent about it.

>There is, empiracally, a creator of the universe
>Christ represents the closest thing, and amazingly beautiful in it's language, to the truth of natural law and God's rules for life
>God = Truth, Reason, Logic
>Jesus = Action, Justice
>Holy Spirit = Passion, Emotion

All together, the Trinity is love and the divine spark. HE places this spark in all men. It is the desire to fulfill ones purpose, destiny, potential. Man is above animal. Man contemplates the eternal, because something must exist outside the immediate.

If fear was the motivator for becoming a Christian, then why would Christianity "invent" Hell-an unimaginable terrible prison- in the first place?

God is everywhere. Your free will dictates your existence, and it can really be explained through physics. It's a product of our existence in the third dimension. Endless possibility exist and it can be proven mathematically.
God exists, but isn't in the "free will" equation. It exists outside of it and free from it.

I've heard this before but not sure where that belief comes from. Did Jesus say he would do this?

Sounds like you've surely internalized Christ's message

Listen next time you pray, but you will have to humble or else your pride will make you feel like a douchebag

It's impossible to know if Hell exists, and thus foolish to assume it doesn't

No, Christianity creates a template for a life well lived, a life to ultimate satisfaction (not pleasure).

Hell is self made, as is heaven. You act not for the rewards of heaven, nor the punishment in hell. You act to fulfill your divine purpose and to bring goodness to this world as a reflection of God's plan in yourself to others. You must help others to see the light within them, and to ignite the holy Spirit in their hearts.

>Sounds like you've surely internalized Christ's message

That literally was his message. Repent or burn in hell.

Repentance requires a functioning conscience, which you clearly do not have. You cannot be saved except through an act of God which others must pray for.

You can't even pray for your own salvation because you cannot see that you've done anything wrong. You're so degenerate that you even believe that you're a good person.

Beg me and maybe I'll pray for you.

I haven't laughed this hard in awhile, thanks

Apparently nothing, but I could be wrong.

when you say bible do you mean gospels pr are you lumping in Torah with that? Because as a Jew I think Torah is very special and people automatically lump it with the gospels to make up for it's downfalls

Easily.

how is it optomistic when it basically says "worship jesus or burn in hell forever"? It's very similar to Islam in that way

Jesus references Himself as the "Son of Man" multiple times in Matthew. This is in reference Daniel 7:13-14, a King who would be granted dominion over the world for all of time.

No. But if I was going to invent a religion that saves all souls, I think I would have a suitable answer for that question of souls that came before Christ.

And I think Paul has more specific answer to this in 1 Thessolonians 4. 1 Thess. is one of Paul's genuine letters and literally the earliest primary source we have of Christ, according to my Prof. who is like the leading scholar in this area in America.

No. If you're supposed to go to Hell, then God will harden your heart against him and you will never believe. If you're not supposed to go to Hell then God will give you faith. Even if you want to you cannot induce faith by your own reason or understanding. You're either elect or reprobate and nothing anyone on this thread does can change that.

The Old Testament is important for understanding the fear of god, but OP won't understand that as a newb

>but should only serve as a guide for how to be, not the object of worship

wrong
due to the absolute, exclusive claims he made of himself:

"I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life."

he is either the living Son of the Living God
or:
a madman/con artist

there is nothing else

answer from a Jew: Hell wasn't a concept before the time of Jesus, it's fear factor into getting people to join your religion

I believe you can find jesus with reasoning if that is your wish. Start with some sacred geometry and go from there. It explains a divine will, holy ghost call it what you want. I can't explain it and I don't know if it will work for you but for me. At one point I met him and I understood a lot. So much as to make me certain i had discovered the rational line of thinking that would allow me to explain god. Then it past and I was left with only faith, the rational part of it forgotten. Anyways much blessings on this thread and the people in it. Lets all sleep well tonight.

>I've heard this before but not sure where that belief comes from. Did Jesus say he would do this?

From memory, Jesus was in the earth for 3 days. During that time he saved those in the earth who wanted salvation. I don't remember the passage tho, if any. I am sure that theres nothing in the bible saying that He cant save them.

>"worship jesus or burn in hell forever"?

strawman
and eternal suffering is false doctrine, straight from the dragon

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

It's not funny, and I'm not joking.

You are beyond saving in the Christian sense if you are not capable of repentance.

Instead of asking me to prove to you that God is real you should be asking me how to repent, you filthy fucking heathen.

I will pray for you of course, you don't really have to beg. But my point was not merely to mock you, but also to show you that living with a seared conscience puts you beyond God's grace and ear. He literally cannot hear your phony prayers unless you come to him with a repentant heart.

With a seared conscience, the only hope of salvation is if other repentant souls have the grace to pray for you.

> Start with some sacred geometry and go from there. I

no
that not lead you to the narrow path and narrow gate

rather, start with The Gospel, The Word.
I can assure you NKJV is best if you have a triple digit IQ.

I wish i was in that program as a hobby or something. I imagine you can't say who the prof is, or point me to some scholar?

theres a lot more to Torah than "fear of G-d" it really peeves me that thats all Christians think Torah is

It's perfectly fine to practice buddhism with Christian stories and you're right that the bible contradicts itself. Judas even dies twice in two different ways.

how can people call themselves Christians if one of their major concepts is "false" as you claim, does that mean Jesus lied when talking about Hell, why would you worship a liar?

The whole Christian bible... Genesis to Revelations

This thread is for the newb so go on

>You can't even pray for your own salvation because you cannot see that you've done anything wrong.

your heart is in the right place but that is wrong
you can certainly pray for your own salvation, but praying alone wont achieve it

pray for wisdom, softening of the heart, humility, clarity of the path, ultimate correct understanding of scripture, etc for Christ to lead one to salvation, to that only path i mention: Faith which can only come after repentance.

so you really mean "Stolen Jewish Bible" and "Christian Bible"

Well OP is asking for a rational line of thought that explains stuff. The bible is a good book but not very rational I would say. Not in the way sacred geometry tries to be. Sacred geometry literally tries to explain how and why the holy ghost does what it does to make what we are. Not saying it is true, but I am saved in jesus.

'hell' is the state of no god. not a place as much as a state of being after death. you reject him so you are without him, alone in the void of nonexistence. It could also be a state of mind or situations you got yourself into in life.

>how is it optomistic when it basically says "worship jesus or burn in hell forever"? It's very similar to Islam in that way


Because to avoid Hell, and go to Heaven forever, you simply need to ask to be saved

anyone may call themselves anything
it does not necessarily make them so

the dragon "calls" himself "correct/right(eous)"

what weight has that claim?

rather, what each person's nature is evidenced by the fruits of their existence

works are evidence of faith

No problem. Just a class I took. L. Michael White, From Jesus to Christianity, might be a good place to start. The book can get a little stale sometimes though, as it is the pure, chronological history of Christianity, nothing more.

I don't agree with him on everything though, particularly his analysis on Revelations.

So you think that there are no good people? That's a depressing view of the world

>The bible is a good book but not very rational I would say

no no no
rather it is absolutely, but the words of the Word create a many many meta layered mystery that is perfectly rational

>you can certainly pray for your own salvation

You can if you have a functioning conscience with which to approach God humbly and with genuine repentance.

I'm not sure if God would hear or honor mocking prayers from an atheist who doesn't even believe he's done anything wrong.

Torah is about partnership with G-d, and with your fellow man, it's about living in a discoplined manner when everyone around you is degenerate, it's a story of culture and a dense history of a people, and a very much living document to the Jewish people of a special relationship in accepting divinity into our lives. It annoys me when Christians consider Torah in their Bible because they completely miss all of wjat I just said, they get that from the gospels but write Torah off as "old", extremely disrespectful imo. I don't mind that Christians use Tanakh as reference but saying its your Bible when you don't even follow it baffles me.

Just read Summa contra Gentiles by Saint Thomas Aquinas.

Don't listen to those who say that you can't find God with your natural reason.

Christians usually don't kill people for leaving Christianity anymore.

>There's no point reasoning with morons like this. They cannot be saved because they are prideful and have a seared conscience.

the does not guarantee vanity of attempting to so

I lile that answer user

in deed

The jews offered their bible to the whole world as a testimony by the prophets of God. One cant steal something that is freely given.

and those that did were not Christians

how do you explain that those concepts are unique to Christianity and seemkngly borrowed from the Greeks to try to convert more Greeks and Romans? It's a very simple fear tactic, risk and reward "do what we want and you get rewarded, dont do it and you get tortured forever" a very childish mentality

>So you think that there are no good people?

Good people cannot exist apart from God.

A person may have a good quality or two, but the majority of that person is complete shit without God.

You will not be saved by any of your good qualities, but only by repentance for your sins and faith in Jesus Christ.

And even with faith in Jesus Christ you never will be a 'good person' up to God's standards in this life, unless he himself chooses to remake you as such. You have no part or work in that project except repentance.

what is that supposed to mean

>so you really mean "Stolen Jewish Bible" and "Christian Bible"

Meant to reply to you:
The jews offered their bible to the whole world as a testimony by the prophets of God. One cant steal something that is freely given.

Listen to this while doing something else
youtu.be/3_2T47PAIkM

Actually listen though

>Good people cannot exist apart from God.

well

"none are righteous, not one"

its stolen when they use it to make an idol, something forbidden, they desecrated it, disrespected it

Read this newadvent.org/summa/

it means that you shouldnt lump in the Jewish bible with the Christian bible because they conteadict each other, people eho say otherwise have a poor understanding of the jewish bible and blatently make things up about it to support their agenda

>You think you're so smart and wise, but by creating this very thread you only reveal your own ignorance
wow, you're one sanctimonious cunt
I'm sure God loves smug faggots like you who actively push people away from Christianity
nice spacing by the way

>how do you explain that those concepts are unique to Christianity

They probably arent. Who cares? That concept is the most hopeful that i can find

that's why you accept Christ

>tortured forever"

see:
and as for this:
> does that mean Jesus lied when talking about Hell,

(those who( interpreted it as "eternal suffering" were wrong/misinformed

>'hell' is the state of no god. not a place as much as a state of being after death

wrong
that is not gehenna

> alone in the void of nonexistence.

contradiction:
IF:
* you are alone then you exist

IF:
* you dont exist, then you cannot be alone(nor anything)

What?
The Old Testament is history and prophecy of the New Testament.
Reading the OT helps the NT make more sense.

God gave his creation an infinitely large playground to explore. Why is that so hard to accept, Swedecuck?

Better to have it and not need it than not have it when it is needed.

Your language is your context and bias when it comes to the written word my friend. God's word comes in many packages is all I'm trying to say. You think god limits himself to the one book? Then we believe different things. Simple as that.

thats not theft but sacrilege. I cant prove that Christianity isn't sacrilege. No one can prove that for any faith.

Dr Gary Habermas.
Look up his work
???????
Profit

existing in the void(nonexistence) IS nonexistence. your consciousness simply ceases to be

...