Does Sup Forums support Universal Basic income?

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NEET money for everybody? It's basically communism without the work. Reducing everyone to equal poverty except for the 1% or whatever miniscule number of rich kikes ruling over their debt slaves.

bump

The only welfare state that makes sense is the Nazi Germany version where you had to work, and it was paid for by non-whites.

isn't your country poor af on average?

What's the actual distinction between a UBI and a Negative Income Tax? Because I'm generally in support of a Negative Income Tax.

Yes just give me money for free lol

#yolo

>NEET money for everybody? It's basically communism without the work.
False

UBI is reforming the current welfare in a way that it directly hands out that welfare equally to everyone, so the state can dismantle all state spending (like healthcare) and tell you to go fuck yourself because it already gave you money
Additionally, think of it as getting a portion of your tax back. It's the opposite of communism

I support my penis in her mouth.

fuck off commie subuman

Yeah and i would directly benefit from UBI to begin with but i can see the horrors of the long term.
It's just the cheapest way to keep large numbers of unemployed purposeless people content. A waste of human resources that are dormant instead of working hard for their race and nation.

>Implying anyone could ever afford healthcare with UBI.
topkek

I'm against UBI simply because most Sup Forums users would benefit from it

Dumb poorfags deserves to suffer

>Additionally, think of it as getting a portion of your tax back.
Or, just hear me out, the government could lower my taxes so I can keep more of my money. So instead of having to take part of my income, giving it to the state, then having that distributed to some shitheads, I can use it for whatever I want. Because It's my money. Isn't that a nifty idea?

I like the idea of universal basic income, but there's no way it could actually work. Say the government gives every $10k. Rent just went up $10k. Probably everything else would get more expensive. It's the reason why the price of food was so fucking high for the past 5 years, even after the price of oil completely bottomed out. The Obama admin was handing out foodstamps in record numbers.

There's no way to make it work without price controls. But now we're in literal communism territory, and fuck that.

>Reducing everyone to equal poverty
This. Income inequality is the price you pay for high standards of living. You only achieve perfect equality when formerly rich man is standing next to you in the breadline.

UBI is the future.

Australia almost has it right, just the system is fucked. It's really easy to get on welfare here, assuming you're either studying or put on a program that specifically makes you look for work, or work odd jobs for either charity or other shit.

It sounds great from the outside, you can get money and the govt helps you find work or get resume references through charity jobs. But there's very few standards, and not enough people checking up on these "work for the dole" places. You hear horror stories of people who get injured and then getting their payments cut cause they can't show up due to injury.

Shit's fucked, but it could work if the government hired a lot more people to legitimize the process. Or privatize it and make sure there are strict OHS and union laws in place for people. Only then could a UBI maybe work.

I think relying on privatization could be the only way for a UBI to work, which is ironic considering it's a very socialist idea.

but the standards are plummetting everywhere and unemployment is on the rise

thats the point of stuff like this. Sure it sounds great if your an idiot and dont want to work, but the only way its going to work is if we do this whole communism thing that has proven to never work in the long run.

if nobody will be able to pay this rent, nobody will rent

>Or, just hear me out, the government could lower my taxes so I can keep more of my money
I agree dude. How about you try and contact your local senators or whatever you can to achieve exactly that, let's see how far you'll go

communist countries never had ubi or any type of welfare at all. they just had jail terms for whoever was unemployed

>her

...

This. you just made a baseline, and the market would react to the baseline.

Post ww2 the GI bill gave vets a lot of money. Banks came up with finance plans around that GI cash, as did unis and retail.

For your GI bill you could get a huber house in the suburbs, for instance. the market warped around this. However, since GIs were still a minority, it didnt have the same distortion effect as "give 10,000 to 2/3rds the country" would.

McDonalds, hospitals, Walmart, they all know exactly how much money they can charge for baseline services, based on welfare and minimum wage. UBI just shifts that up and devalues the currency. Now, that actually may not be bad from an export perspective, but there are other ways to go about that.

>Remove welfare completely and the unemployed will be forced to either relocate and find a job or starve.
>Single mother problem will solve itself too because every cumdumpster will have to either use contraception or find a provider for her offspring.
>stop feeding Africans and they will stop breeding like rabbits

tl;dr everything can be solved by hanging socialists

To be honest I don't really find her that attractive. She looks too perfect, if you know what I mean. Can't really think of her as a flesh and blood human.

Universal blowjobs would be nice.

Her eyes seem very soulless too.

No

Welfare should only be given to the genuinely ill/disabled.

Everyone else needs to work for the country and man -- it gives them purpose and improves our species.

As Ben (((piro said, the only point at which UBI becomes relevant is when we basically have Star Trek level technology - replicators, ability to 3D print anything anywhere, AI that is able to service every need - conversational or creative.

Until then capitalism and charity are the best options.

Beyond the fact it wouldn't work at all on a basic math level, I think even in a fantasy best-case scenario you'd just end up with the same people spending every penny of the money they're given and then screaming that they don't have a livable wage because they had nothing left for when their car broke down or they had to go to the hospital. If you want to take care of people, you need to be able to actually react to their specific needs instead of trying to create some utopian system where those needs never arise, because they will always arise. At this point, you lose the entire premise of "it's so simple because it means no welfare systems!"

Today? Fuck no, wouldn't work.

Maybe in the future when non-tech jobs are completely eliminated and everything is done by machines and algorithms

In a 100 years when human labor becomes largely obsolete, sure, but i'd rather us just go full on socialism. But until then, while human labor is necessary there should absolutely not be any incentive for people not to work, because people are lazy fucks and the humankind would deteriorate and disappear within a decade

It's a transfer of wealth from the part of the economy which demand is elastic towards the inelastic.

A plot for the rich to become richer by ruining the middle class. Basically, poor people will receive money from everyone, they then spend it in inelastic demand products which cost will grow due to excessive of demand, all pay, buy only some will win out of that.

No. It'll make everyone a depressed retired fuck. We need the drive to work to be wholesome.

I mean, if there has to be some sort of social safety net, I'd prefer UBI to welfare (which directly disincentives people from finding jobs) and social security (a Ponzi scheme). I think it'd be smart to give everyone enough money that they can buy their own catastrophic health insurance, so at least when someone comes to a hospital uninsured we can just call them a retard, rather than crying about it. Following that, UBI would also allow us to return to a fully private healthcare system.

In the ideal AnCap society:

Sure, sounds great, i wish you best of luck with your Universial Basic Income project. Just remember you can't force me or anyone else to fund it. If you try to, i might have to shoot ya. Have a nice day ma'am =)

>I agree dude. How about you try and contact your local senators or whatever you can to achieve exactly that, let's see how far you'll go
I have, they haven't responded to any of my strongly worded Emails because the state I live in is rotten to it's core. Many Americans, especially those in California, are taxed to fucking death with a bureaucratic system full of holes and inefficiencies.

With UBI I would be taking part of my income or assets, putting it into a mismanaged system, then that money is spread around and I get some of it back. Why the fuck should I pay into it if I'm going to get a fraction of it back? It is almost as retarded as social security, which was created with the premise that more people would be paying into it than taking out of it. The opposite is about to happen soon and we don't have any way to pay for it. What happens with UBI when people are taking more from the system than paying into it? The same thing, the state has the obligation to pay but can't afford it and we go further down the hole of debt.

The US government is like a teenage girl with daddy's credit card. You're going to end up with a lot of shit you don't need and debt.

How about instead of giving money out for free to everyone we just abolish money all together and instead give all products out for free?

I feel like that would be much more efficient than ubi could ever be.

no because it's a fundamental misunderstanding of economics.

Sounds great! Will you make me the products for free then? I dont want to make anything right now.

The taxest that will pay for it will come from the middle class, so no

Once the robotistocracy takes over UBI will be necessary unless 90% of the population is killed off.

While we're at it we should make all services free too! Oh and if you don't do it the state will kill you.

My state will probably test ubi in the next few years
The outcome will be funny for sure

If by funny you mean a tragedy sure.

>Additionally, think of it as getting a portion of your tax back.
We already have that. It's called deductions.
UBI was unnecessarily complicate that and gives money to people who don't pay in.
The fundamental problem should be really apparent by now.
Also, we should stop welfare anyways because it's fucking up the markets.

UBI will be necessary once enough jobs are displaced by automation, else no one will have the money to buy the goods that machines produce, and thus everything grinds to a halt.

If sentient artificial intelligence / the singularity comes about before everyones jobs are taken by automation, such an intelligence may be able to devise an alternative solution to the problem... I think this is the most likely scenario, as many human jobs require general intelligence.

>else no one will have the money to buy the goods that machines produce, and thus everything grinds to a halt.
mmmmmmh that sounds really familiar, I think I already read this somewhere

Yeah that's true but what can you do about it? As long as people vote in candidates who promised them welfare, welfare will continue to exist. And those people are the majority. Therefor we can conclude that welfare isn't going anywhere and that instead of trying to remove it, we should reform it so its not such a huge burden on both the state and the free market

>Also, we should stop welfare anyways because it's fucking up the markets.
Exactly why you should be for UBI - it's supposed to be a way to stop funding state infrastructure and healthcare with welfare or subsidies and instead give the money to the people so they spend it in the free market. The UBI is exactly low enough that you cannot save it and have to spend it, so this means that every UBI payout will be directly injected into the market, which is basically an indirect subsidy to your market while claiming that you're giving poor people free money. The market loves you, the people love you, and poverty is eliminated - literally what more can you ask for?

But still there are people who haven't put a lot of thought behind it and automatically claim that it's communism. Is the Fed's QE communism as well?

Anyways, we already have UBI in France, and all it does is create an underclass of welfare arabs and niggers who breed tremendously to get more benefits.

no but with the current developments in technology unfortunately this will soon become an inevitability for most governments

Where'd you read it you think?

>Exactly why you should be for UBI - it's supposed to be a way to stop funding state infrastructure and healthcare with welfare or subsidies and instead give the money to the people so they spend it in the free market.
Which would also fuck up the markets. Giving people money - who did not earn money - gives market power to people who have none. It would distort demand and artificially reduce supply. Do you see the issue with this?
> which is basically an indirect subsidy to your market
Which is bad.
>The market loves you
the market hates you, poor people and businesses catering to the poor love you.
>poverty is eliminated
because people won't mismanage money once it becomes free
>But still there are people who haven't put a lot of thought behind it and automatically claim that it's communism.
It's definitely not communism but does arise from socialist principals. Taking from producers and giving to the class of poor.
>Is the Fed's QE communism as well?
false equivalency.

I remember it from an Alan Watts lecture or book.

pol is a conserva-

-tive board.
>shows proof that Sup Forums doesn't like, yet another, welfare program.

I'd say 1/3 support for a radical socialist policy on what is supposed to be one of the most conservative sites on the 'net is pretty significant.

Fuck off commie, get a job if you want money

I'd say you're a faggot.

> on what is supposed to be one of the most conservative sites on the 'net is pretty significant.
Who made that claim?
>I'd say 1/3 support
30% isn't 1/3. Please don't be a burger. We have enough "liberal intellectuals" commenting.

because she has not tried black dick yet

>Yeah that's true but what can you do about it?
Treat the disease and not the symptoms. If the people are burdened with taxes and can't afford expenses why give tax then give that money back to them? That's horribly stupid and inefficient.

>Therefor we can conclude that welfare isn't going anywhere and that instead of trying to remove it, we should reform it so its not such a huge burden on both the state and the free market
It doens't matter how you reform it, it will always be a huge burden on the state and the market. The problem is that "reforms" almost always do more harm than good. Obamacare? Premiums are through the roof and more people just bite the fee, oh, and you don't get to keep your doctor. Thinking UBI is going to fix the problems of our current welfare issues if going full retard. People mismanage their finances all the time, giving them the money to do so is only adding fuel on the fire. Think subprime mortgages and the idea "everyone should own a house" kind of thinking. If I give someone 10K do you really think they are going to be smart with that money? Sure, a few people may. But for the most part people blow it on hookers and coke. Now that 10K is pretty much gone and once the idiot that blew it wakes up from his stupor reality comes crashing back down where he is living paycheck to paycheck.

No and if its instituted I will stop working entirely so as not to put anything into the system.

But if you have to pay into a system that only gives you some of your tax money back, why not just keep the taxes without paying them?
To even accommodate UBI, you'll need everybody to have a job. Can't pay money that isn't produced.
Unemployment would have to be illegal, and then the state would need jobs for the workforce to have, so they'll appropriate industries from richer people who actually own a business.
That's a good reason for those business owners to take all their money and their skills with them to another country.
In effect you'd have to print shitloads of worthless money to be able to afford UBI, but to keep life affordable you'll need to fix the prices of goods.
Inevitably you end up with an economy like Venezuela, where it costs more to produce toilet paper than the price of it in stores.

UBI is just another version of communism. Don't go there. Bad luck.

Yes, after we purged the liberals.

>paying people not to work
>welfare reform
pick one and only one

>those four aspirations don't fit in the job you work to afford to live
Whoever drew up that image clearly hasn't had a good job.

That was one of the oldest version i got, always gets plenty of yous

> year is 2070
> sentient AI just created
> within 2 years automates every job
> you've exhausted all your savings buying food
> can't find job
> ask robot overlord for tuppence
> *microsoft sam voice*
> Fuck off commie, get a job if you want money

It's just communism with a new name.
>"wouldn't it be nice if we could all just have free shit for doing nothing"

Welfare in all it's forms is destroying families.

>getting a portion of your tax back.

... but the liberals and endless hordes of foreign invaders aren't getting "their" taxes back. They'll be getting other people's taxes back. They don't pay a damn thing into the system.

Parasites voting on who gets to be their new host.

Kinda like Universally Preferable Behaviour, also known as Christianity - God.

That's a bunk theory, rent wont go up, that only happens when capitalist scim raise prices to compensate for lack of profit. It do3sn't happen automatically, I'm tired of this billshit argument, dumb ass.

We do not need central planners trying to fuck with local markets. Americans want to buy locally produced goods. They know how to get their local economies back. This is why they have been voting for Tea Party since 2006.

unsustainable, unfair and stupid just like every other socialist sheme.

I think it would be fine once automation takes over nearly everything and can produce huge surpluses. If they want to pay for UBI by taking hardworking people's money than I say no.

If all the poor people (renters) have more money given to them, property managers raise prices since people need housing and will pay whatever the cheapest price offered is. They dont have a choice unless they want to be homeless.

Unfair from who's perspective?

It is the most likely of the welfares to work, but as parasites are apt to do, they will slowly piss on the margins until they get "special circumstances" tacked on.
>welfare can't work, because people are untrustworthy

Yes, elites are just going to give obsolete labor free money and totally not exterminate them with opiates and other means.

No work = no money.
Fuck off.
The only ones who would benefit from this are niggers and spics who breed like cockroaches and will collapse the system.

We can place regulation to control the housing market, making that wicked tactic of raises prices for necessities illegal.

The mere existence of another human being bears no inherent value to either you or me.
What they do, what they contribute is what matters and with automation the contributions of humans slowly but surely disappear. So why should these humans that contribute nothing be given a means to continue their existence?

This is why many would claim some kind of transcendence via technology as the way to go. And i would agree if i believed that a true AI capable of replacing the human mind entirely would come about within my lifetime. I don't believe that will be the case.

Therefore we're left with simple script machines producing goods and hordes of humans doing nothing.
Sooner or later laws of nature will reemerge and these humans will be forced to fight for their mere existence to justify that very existence. And this will last until a transcendence of some kind can finally be achieved.

This.
People should rely on strong family values rather than state money.
This is why new generations don't date and have children.

it's like believing in perpetual motion devices.

i'm going to need a cool million in non sequential treasury bonds.

Libertarians and ancaps are worthless, I say we enslave them and make them pay for us

Oh my god this is spot on!

>The mere existence of another human being bears no inherent value to either you or me.
Of course a sapient being has inherent value. Only a psychopath or autismo would think otherwise.

>So why should these humans that contribute nothing be given a means to continue their existence?
Because it's the ethically correct thing to do (obviously).

The correct fix is voluntary eugenics, ie paying money to the stupids to have 1 or 0 kids. The problem fixes itself within a couple generations and is perfectly ethical, just, and humane.

>strawpoll.me/13519987
Okay...Going to make a case for why I voted yes.

I would totally support it if we had little to no immigration. Secure as fuck borders and totally eradicated social security. If we can also remove at least half the illegals in this country as well. UBI is not sustainable with immigration it flat out isnt.

I support UBI but not as cash payouts.

UBI has to be like food stamps.

Also, you have to show you are looking for work every 2 week, with a detailed documentation of you search or company progress.

Most of the people on this board who are against UBI or Foodstamps are fags who spend all their money on bullshit and complain about not being paid more.

our maybe a weeks payed emperor package at Caesars palace

I will tell you right now, what I've felt about that idea for... over half a decade.
If all the post-scarcity stuff ever happened, and someone still needs me to keep them up for f-all know what reason in that situation, a hypothetical situation when survival and prospering is essentially figuring out how to effectively push a button/download a schematic to create a thing by pushing a button, or do that to design a resource gathering system? Aka post-scarcity society? Anyone wants to leech off of me Then, in the most can-hack-it era possibly imaginable aside being a literal god... is getting a 3d printed rpg round to their skull from my button-push-away personally robot army.
I'm going full on eugenics mode to inferior leeches then. Fuck that care-bear shit, man.
The future will not be a take-from socialism dominated society, lead by utter losers. I am not keeping up the retards. I'd eradicate them, and the world will be inherited by the monkeys smart enough to push the button and receive the food pellets on their own, so to speak, without having to make me their damn slave.
And that sir, will be a much more peaceful society afterwards, I must say I believe. You press your buttons, I press mine.

>free money for degenerates
kys commie

^ this

The borders have to be secured, illegals cannot be allowed to gain access to UBI.

Immigration should have always been a tightly secured process.

The fact that we let people into the US who don't speak English is ridiculous enough.

English is now universal, books and studies for English are universal.

I'm not 100% against immigration but there should be prerequisites that pretty much ensure the person coming her is cultured into the gist of America and can integrate instead of isolate.

The one that actually work

There is no inherent value of a human being other than their genes which over generations also accumulate deleterious mutations causing disease and reducing overall fitness.
In nature natural selection takes care of the dead end genes whereas your blind ethics would reintroduce them over and over into the rest of mankind.
Beyond the genes of an individual the only value they hold is in their actions whether simple manual labor which is the easiest to take away with automation or by problem solving with intelligence that's difficult to replace with machines which mainly do relatively simple math so far.

Bottom line a family with 20 something kids in Africa that only consume and produce absolutely nothing in return is OF NO VALUE TO ANYONE. If you believe otherwise you're the psychopath or autismo.