Syria General /sg/ - Best Ghouta Edition

Everything you need to know
syriagenerals.wordpress.com

>SOUTHFRONT Aug 25
youtu.be/K_D_ImtOpbY

>Newest Interviews with Assad
youtu.be/UlXRv8tf5Z8
youtu.be/arHsOcXeN2Q

>Live MAPS
globaleventmap.org
syria.liveuamap.com
militarymaps.info
cartercenter.org/syria-conflict-map

>Fan maps
twitter.com/PetoLucem
twitter.com/miladvisor
twitter.com/a7_mirza
twitter.com/hamza_780
edmaps.com
syriancivilwarmap.com

RECENT MAPS
>Dara'a Aug20
i.imgur.com/B02DEw9.jpg
>Central Sy Aug19
imgur.com/a/BA17m
>Raqqa Aug19
i.imgur.com/yoGtMJM.jpg
>E Ghouta Aug11
imgur.com/a/CBtz3
>SE Sy Aug10
imgur.com/a/grK9i
>Arsal Aug 3
i.imgur.com/sO9mkmx.jpg
>DeZ Jul 31
i.imgur.com/utmNybB.jpg

Developments Aug 25
>Nabhan Group of the Tiger Forces launches op in so. Raqqa, recovers 80% of lost ground
>New secure communications system tested by Ru military in Syria
>42nd Brigade fires 20 missiles in E. Damas, inflicts heavy damage on HTS positions
>RuAF destroyed over 1,000 terrorist sites in Sy this week, 90,000 total airstrikes over whole campaign
>SAA liberates Salibah, Mukayman Al-Shamali, and Tal-Albawi from IS in Sheikh Halal
>Lavrov: US strategy in Afghanistan a "dead end" preconditional terms with Taliban a "mistake"
>AMAQ release batch of photos from recent offensive on SAA in rural Raqqa
>Marawi: Duterte makes 3rd visit to troops who have just retaken the Grand Mosque
>Yemen: Saudi coalition kills 14 more civs in Sanaa after hotel massacre
>Pakistan Foreign Minister: "US should not make Pakistan a scapegoat for their failures in Afghanistan"

Prev

Other urls found in this thread:

strawpoll.me/13792818
youtu.be/0FNtEWfay_8
youtu.be/LULzvg1gA5U
youtu.be/fbEMlqrhlSg
youtu.be/VfyDgDTu0Go
youtu.be/Yc-RmAVK8Pg
youtu.be/8prwbWLa7f0
washingtonsblog.com/2017/04/67182.html
youtu.be/_pGAcv-cvA4
youtu.be/8aAaReVn2I4
youtu.be/Es7oBV6b43Y
youtu.be/tseqwNIXhDQ
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youtu.be/8LnVHw96jFs
youtu.be/OJZRvp6w4wc
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youtu.be/_S_zmlDuGKU
youtu.be/T634A6AWR9c
youtu.be/aG_SutViEmQ
youtu.be/zHoeU9mZ1Xss
youtu.be/tmNnZ-3JmSo
youtu.be/ro1byfe5vUM
youtu.be/L2A3KidIhe8
vimeo.com/18781528
youtu.be/t98PD6KCg2Q
youtube.com/watch?v=VfYS4ljaPQo
youtube.com/watch?v=TkGFrAES_40
twitter.com/evrensag/status/901426453623050240
strawpoll.me/13792818/r
rt.com/news/400688-rotterdam-van-terror-threat/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Do your civic duty:
strawpoll.me/13792818

>red pill must watch videos

American senator tell the other side of the story: youtu.be/0FNtEWfay_8
>Ron Paul youtu.be/LULzvg1gA5U | youtu.be/fbEMlqrhlSg
Virginia senator on Aleppo: youtu.be/VfyDgDTu0Go
>UN Neutral report on "War Crimes" in Syria: youtu.be/Yc-RmAVK8Pg
Syria: Not a Revolution: youtu.be/8prwbWLa7f0

===
"Chemical attacks" in Khan Shiekoun on April 4
washingtonsblog.com/2017/04/67182.html
>Assad: Chemical Attack Fabrication youtu.be/_pGAcv-cvA4

===
>THE TRUTH ABOUT White helmets:
youtu.be/8aAaReVn2I4
youtu.be/Es7oBV6b43Y
youtu.be/tseqwNIXhDQ
youtu.be/792ODrhwKkk
White helmets killing a child for UN youtu.be/9nj6fc69qjM
Staging CW attack videos youtu.be/8LnVHw96jFs

===
>What's REALLY Happening in Syria (by SyrianGirlPartisan): youtu.be/OJZRvp6w4wc
Syria ambassador in USA: youtu.be/U3LTTbOYVfU
Women under Bashar youtu.be/_S_zmlDuGKU
>The Face of American Regime Change: youtu.be/T634A6AWR9c
Assad visits monastery for Christmas: youtu.be/aG_SutViEmQ
Soldier met family after 5 years: youtu.be/zHoeU9mZ1Xss
>Canadian Journalist Expose The Lies of Syria: youtu.be/tmNnZ-3JmSo
===
NGO’s and hybrid warfare: youtu.be/ro1byfe5vUM
===
WikiLeaks: Turkish oil minister links to Isis oil trade
- wikileaks.org/berats-box/article
Top aide to Hillary Clinton: :Al-Qaeda is on our side in Syria
- wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/23225
===
>SJWs cuckmarch(riding in my Volkswagen van everyday) from Germany to Aleppo
youtu.be/L2A3KidIhe8
Progress: 5 left out of 3000+ at the start.
Journey ended in Lebanon as they did not want to ask for visas from Sy Gov.
===

Thread reminder to watch Threads.
vimeo.com/18781528

youtu.be/t98PD6KCg2Q

...

What the fuck did I miss over the past few days?

NATO kaput

Turkish Air Force team performs in Moscow for the very first time.

youtube.com/watch?v=VfYS4ljaPQo

youtube.com/watch?v=TkGFrAES_40

Also Turkey & Russia agreed on S-400 deal

at least /sg/ keeps getting these right.

>mfw comfy gains

saanime

pockets full of spaghetti

here we go

...

THE SAA'S CONQUEST AND A LOAD OF CRINGE

Thoughts on based Aidarus al-Zoubaidi?

>NATO member flying in Russia
lmao, i can feel the butthurt of jens stoltenberg all the way here

>anime

>is on Sup Forums

Philosophical discussions on the meaning of life, Self-improvement, ideas for improving the world, the need to unite ourselves as a whole and not to allow ourselves to be divided by ideology, increasing our individual wealth, Theological discussions, and so on and so forth.

Some gains too, but that isn't important.

Will julian finally start disliking turkey now?

I see a cirnofag made a shitmap while I was away, saving me a lot of work!
>cringe
You got that right
>pockets full of spaghetti
hmmm

Iraq Shitmap: Tal Afar is Purged Edition

>newfags

If you could ask SDF soldiers any questions, what would you ask?

Try Libya and Yemen too.

>#ISIS claims killing almost 50 gov soldiers when they "tried to advance on their positions S. of Ghanim Ali", but doesnt claim repelling.
Inflating numbers seem to be ISIS latest favourite thing to do.

Sukheil let's ISIS fuck him in the ass (no homo) only to chop it's dick off.

When are we gonna see another Operation: Sky of the Tiger ?

US soldier missing after Black Hawk helicopter crashes in Yemen
One soldier is missing and five others have been rescued after a US Black Hawk helicopter crashed in the south of Yemen while on a training mission, the US Central Command has said. The crash took place 20 miles (32 km) off the southern coast of Yemen at 19:00 on Friday, the military said in a statement, and an investigation into the cause of the crash is ongoing. US forces are currently involved in counterterrorism operations in the Middle Eastern country, particularly against Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP).

>Philosophical discussions on the meaning of life, Self-improvement, ideas for improving the world, the need to unite ourselves as a whole and not to allow ourselves to be divided by ideology, increasing our individual wealth, Theological discussions, and so on and so forth.
>on Sup Forums
>Some gains too, but that isn't important.
>saying this on /sg/
TOPJEJ

How does it feel to be an instrument of american imperialism you fake fuck

Germany bans far-left website after G20 violence
Germany has banned a far-left website after police raids on its supporters early on Friday turned up knives, batons and catapults, German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said. The website, linksunten.indymedia.org, was used to organize violence at the July 7-8 G20 summit in Hamburg and on other occasions, de Maiziere said. The site was off-line in Germany and no longer functional on Friday. “Operation of the site is, with immediate effect, a crime,” de Maiziere said after the raids in the southwestern state of Baden-Wuerttemberg. “For years they have been using this platform to express hate against those who think differently as well as representatives of this country,” he said. “They call for attacks against individuals and businesses.” (Reuters)

Who would you rather die at the hands of? The Tiger or the Druze?

ISIS has killed over 6 million SAA soldiers thus far.

N. Korea steps up work on parts for new reactor - IAEA
North Korea has increased its efforts to produce parts for a new nuclear reactor it is building while continuing to operate the main existing one that provides fuel for its atom bombs, the UN nuclear watchdog has said in an annual report on Friday. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) does not have access to North Korea and monitors its activities mainly by satellite imagery. “There were indications in the LWR (light-water reactor) construction yard of an increase in activities consistent with the fabrication of certain reactor components,” the IAEA report said. “The agency has not observed indications of the delivery or introduction of major reactor components into the reactor containment building,” it said. The new reactor is expected to be larger than the current experimental one at Yongbyon. (Reuters)

they've always inflated the numbers of those they killed.

Iraq forces say break through ISIS lines in Tal Afar
Iraqi government forces broke through Islamic State’s lines inside Tal Afar on Friday, and reached the old city center and the neighborhood around the Ottoman-era citadel, according to a military statement. On the sixth day of the offensive, Iraqi elite units seized the northern city’s neighborhoods of Nida’ and Taliaa, according to a statement from the Iraqi Joint Operations Command. Tal Afar lies along the supply route between Syria and the former IS stronghold of Mosul. It has produced some of the militant group’s most senior commanders. (Reuters)

Druze. He'll make it quick

...

Hungary upset over Dutch criticism, recalls ambassador
Hungary’s foreign minister says the country is recalling its ambassador to the Netherlands and suspending high-level diplomatic ties in response to critical remarks by the Dutch ambassador about Hungary. Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto said Friday that Hungary’s decision was “one of the most radical steps in diplomacy” and that it would ask the Dutch Foreign Ministry for its position on the statements of Ambassador Gajus Scheltema, which were published Thursday in Hungary by the 168 Ora magazine. In the interview, Scheltema was critical of Hungary’s unwillingness to participate in a European Union plan to relocate asylum-seekers from Greece and Italy. He also criticized the Hungarian government’s campaign against billionaire financier and philanthropist George Soros. (AP)

>6 million
Don't you mean 6 Billion?

Turkish PM says further US support to Kurdish YPG will cause problems
Any additional support given by the US to Syrian Kurdish YPG fighters will cause problems for Turkey, Prime Minister Binali Yildirim was quoted as saying on Friday. Yildirim said Turkey was working in cooperation with Russia and Iran in Syria, and there should be no reason for the US and Turkey to be on opposite sides. “We are talking about two NATO nations... Of course, if they show a stance other than what they have told us on the YPG issue, it would be a problem,” Yildirim was quoted as saying by broadcaster NTV. He also said Turkey did not plan any further operations into Syria’s Afrin and Idlib provinces. (Reuters)

>ISIS fighter spots #Syria army armored column somewhere in east #Hama
OOOOOOO WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEW

It's this 100%

Oy vey, don't forget the 6,634,571,902!
It's anudda shoah!

>Saddam's mosque in central Tal 'Afar

>feels

Japan says to impose additional sanctions against N. Korea
Japan will impose additional sanctions against North Korea following the reclusive country’s repeated missile launches and unresolved abduction issue, its top government spokesman said on Friday. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga told reporters that Japan would freeze the assets of six more organizations and two more individuals linked to North Korea. He said they included four Chinese entities and one Chinese individual and two Namibian entities. In Beijing, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying expressed “strong dissatisfaction and resolute opposition” to the Japanese sanctions. (Reuters)

Yemen airstrike kills 12, including 6 children – rescuers
An airstrike on Yemen’s capital Sanaa on Friday killed 12 people including six children, rescuers told Reuters. The attack on the Faj Attan area on the outskirts of the city also severely damaged at least two buildings, reducing much of them to rubble, they said.

LIBYA!
g-g-g-g-gainz!
>g-g-g-g-gainz!
g-g-g-g-gainz!
>g-g-g-g-gainz!
g-g-g-g-gainz!
>g-g-g-g-gainz!
g-g-g-g-gainz!
>g-g-g-g-gainz!

Filipino troops recapture mosque, Duterte revisits Marawi
President Rodrigo Duterte traveled Thursday to the main battle zone in southern Marawi after Philippine troops finally recaptured a main mosque where militants linked with Islamic State had taken cover with their hostages in the three-month siege of the city, the military said. Duterte congratulated the troops for regaining control of the Islamic Center, an indication they are nearing the final stage in ending the disastrous uprising. It was Duterte’s third known trip to the embattled city. Duterte inspected a devastated community near the front-line and talked to troops guarding a recaptured building. He also visited a military patrol base and “tried a sniper rifle and fired twice toward the direction of the terrorists,” a government statement said. (AP)

He has to man up and start hitting YPG positions all along the border. If Americans stand on the way, they should be killed too

What is the SDF endgame in Syria right now?

Is it to take over the country once ISIS is defeated using the help of America?

Do they just want ISIS gone?

That's the only part unclear to me.

twitter.com/evrensag/status/901426453623050240

What the hell is the YPG and Asayish doing in Hasaka?

strawpoll.me/13792818/r
>reposting strawpoll from prev bread

UN calls for pause, sparing civilians in Syria’s Raqqa
The UN called on Thursday for a humanitarian pause to allow an estimated 20,000 trapped civilians to escape the Syrian city of Raqqa, and urged the US-led coalition to rein in airstrikes that have caused casualties. “Boats on the Euphrates must not be attacked, people who come out cannot risk air raids when they come out,” Jan Egeland, humanitarian adviser on Syria, said in Geneva. “So now is the time to think of possibilities, pauses or otherwise that might facilitate the escape of civilians, knowing that Islamic State fighters are doing their absolute best to keep them in place,” he said. The UN is still assessing the outcome of talks held this week in Riyadh between the three Syrian opposition groups - who failed to unite - Ramzy Ezzeldin Ramzy, the UN deputy special envoy for Syria, said. (Reuters)

/sg/ is always the best thread on Sup Forums

>literally just some sand

They want turd independence, but they won't get it

/sg/-tan is best -tan

Yemen’s Saleh rallies followers in Sanaa amid Houthi rift
Former Yemeni president Ali Abdullah Saleh rallied thousands of supporters in the capital Sanaa on Thursday in a show of force amid an unusual public rift within the alliance fighting a Saudi-led coalition for control of the country. Fighters loyal to the armed Houthi movement, which runs northern Yemen together with Saleh, decried him as “evil” a day earlier and condemned his description of them as a “militia.” The Houthi leadership recommended the announcement of a state of emergency and suspension of all “party activity,” telling Saleh’s supporters any mass gatherings should be made on battlefronts, not in public squares. The tactical alliance between Saleh and the Houthis has often appeared fragile. (Reuters)

No.

Syrian crowd control

>If Americans stand on the way, they should be killed too

>literally just some airbase, a city, buffer zone around a border crossing with Algeria, and an improved position to relieve siege pro-Haftar pocket to the east of Tripoli
FTFY

US general vows to annihilate ISIS in Afghanistan
The top US general in Afghanistan is vowing to annihilate the Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) group affiliate in the country, crush remnants of Al-Qaeda and urge the Taliban to pursue diplomacy, telling them they cannot win on the battlefield. Gen. John Nicholson, in a tough-talking address to reporters in the Afghan capital, said Thursday that additional troops will further train Afghan troops. He also promised more air support and praised Afghan commandos and special forces as undefeatable. He said that President Donald Trump’s announced policy for Afghanistan and South Asia was proof of the commitment of the international community as well as its determination to see a stable and peaceful Afghanistan. “We will not fail in Afghanistan,” Nicholson says. (AP)

We'll have to make them have "ISIS guilt" after this based on ISIS's own ridiculously overinflated casualty counts.

HAFTAR WILL CONQUER LIBYA ONCE AGAIN! MAKE LIBYA'S FLAG GREEN AGAIN!

Navy IDs 2 dead, 8 missing sailors from the USS John McCain
The US Navy has found the remains of two of the 10 sailors missing after the USS John McCain collided with an oil tanker near Singapore. Divers recovered the remains of Electronics Technician 3rd Class Dustin Louis Doyon, 26, on Thursday night. He is from Suffield, Connecticut. They earlier recovered the remains of Electronics Technician 3rd Class Kenneth Aaron Smith, 22, who the Navy listed as being from New Jersey. His mother said Smith grew up in Novi, Michigan, and moved to Norfolk, Virginia, as a teenager with his father. The military says five sailors were injured and 10 were missing following Monday’s collision. The Navy says missing soldiers were from Missouri, Texas, Maryland, Ohio, New York, Connecticut and Illinois. (AP)

Yemen Shitmap: NOGAINZ Edition

Ok, that's a lot better.

If the LNA can capture Sirte, it'll be easy pickings towards Mirata. Only one city stands between a giant Blitzkrieg.

But it doesn't stop there because I made musclegirls for a requester.

One of them got deleted though, so I'm not reposting it.

Issam:
>hold out a seige for over 3 years
>has limited arsenal but still manages to BTFO ISIS on a daily basis, once digging a tunnel under their HQ and blowing it up
>have a manly beard

Suheil:
>conquer some desert which has hardly any enemies in it
>leave the entire bank of the Euphrates you just conquered for some tribals to defend, who then run away
>gay beard

>unused airbase
>deserted town
>border crossing is not one of the fresh gains
Wew

And it goes to worse...

Dutch police detain 2nd suspect after Rotterdam concert threat
Dutch police detained a second suspect on Thursday after a Spanish tip-off about a possible attack caused the cancellation of a rock concert in Rotterdam a day earlier. The 22-year-old man was arrested during police raids in the southern province of Brabant early on Thursday and was being questioned about the Rotterdam attack threat, the police said. The arrest comes after police detained a Spanish driver on Wednesday night who was found near the concert venue with gas canisters in his van. He turned out to be a mechanic stopped for drunk driving with no apparent connection to the threat, although he was still being questioned on Thursday. Spanish police had tipped off the Dutch to potential danger at the Maassilo concert venue in Rotterdam where California band Allah-Las was set to play. (Reuters)

>Rock concert canceled in Rotterdam over terrorist threat, Spanish van with gas bottles found near

The driver of a van with Spanish license plates and gas canisters inside has been detained in Rotterdam, the mayor’s office confirmed. The van was found where the venue where a concert was earlier canceled due to a “terrorist threat.”

>The driver of the van was detained and taken in for questioning. Aboutaleb, however, warned against "swift conclusions" and said that it was not yet clear if the van was really related to the “terrorist threat.”

In the meantime, the Spanish news agency Europa Press reported that the van driver was indeed a Spanish citizen, but that he had no known links to jihadist terrorism. The agency also added that the gas canisters in his vehicle were apparently for domestic use.
rt.com/news/400688-rotterdam-van-terror-threat/

true

China’s Xi says willing to work on differences with S. Korea
Chinese President Xi Jinping said Thursday he’s willing to work with his South Korean counterpart Moon Jae-in on addressing differences between the two countries following months of angry rhetoric and economic retaliation over Seoul’s deployment of a US missile-defense system. Xi’s remarks came in a message on Thursday to Moon marking the 25th anniversary of diplomatic relations between Beijing and Seoul. Xinhua quoted Xi as saying he was willing to make “concerted efforts” to improve relations but did not directly mention the missile-defense system known as THAAD. (AP)

Trips tell the truth. It was requested on a cringeworthiness basis.

>>unused airbase
>>deserted town
>>border crossing is not one of the fresh gains
Unused airbase =/= no importance
Deserted town capped for Haftar means future economy
Border crossing wasn't one of the gains, the buffer zone around it is.
>WEW lad

Pakistan rejects role of ‘scapegoat for US failures’ in Afghanistan
Pakistan has rejected US criticism of its efforts to fight terrorism, saying it should not be made a scapegoat for the failure of the US military to win the war in Afghanistan. Pakistan’s powerful military chief, General Qamar Javed Bajwa, met US Ambassador David Hale on Wednesday and told him Pakistan was actively working for peace in Afghanistan. “We have done a lot… and shall keep on doing our best, not to appease anyone but in line with our national interest and national policy,” Bajwa was quoted in an army press statement as telling Hale. US President Donald Trump unveiled his policy for Afghanistan on Monday, stepping up the military campaign against Taliban insurgents and singling out Pakistan for harboring them. (Reuters)

Iran, Saudi Arabia to exchange diplomatic visits - Iranian FM
Delegations from Iran and Saudi Arabia will exchange diplomatic visits soon, Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif said in an interview published by ISNA news agency on Wednesday. The visits, which Zarif said could take place after the hajj pilgrimage ends in the first week of September, would be the first sign of a thaw in relations between the regional rivals since they severed diplomatic ties last year. “We are waiting for the final steps to be completed so diplomats from the two countries can inspect their embassies and consulates,” Zarif said. Relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia are at their worst in years, with each accusing the other of subverting regional security and supporting opposite sides in conflicts in Syria, Iraq and Yemen. (Reuters)

Do you have a version of with without the Balloon tits?

...

If the Houthis want to win the war, they have to capture Najran and the nearby airbase. They have to force the KSA Air Force into a less desirable position. If the Houthis can do that, they'll be able to push back against the Hadi forces

No, but if you send me the original, I can do a similar shop on it.

They can do this but need to keep their ground until IRGC forces from Syria can transfer to Yemen.

>tfw houthis in american jets
You're delusional if you believe that propaganda, there is no ratline from Iran to Yemen.

Issam:
>literally sitting around for 3 years while getting airdrops all day long
>btfo by some sand and wind
>looks like Santa Claus

Suheil:
>liberates Aleppo
>using advanced tactics, literally the reborn Alexander the Great
>looks like a statue

Think bigger. Once they take Sirte, they can transport supplies to the Tripoli front.

>confederate flag

>photoshops Hezbollah, Russia, and Syria on women and girls
>Especially oversized women

Why ?

My dude Iran loves them houthis IRGC will move in after Syria is over and they'll begin to start major offensives if they can hold. Wouldn't be surprised if houthis had some sort of manpads from an undisclosed source. Honestly I don't care as long as KSA is bleeding money and manpower I'm good.

He is here from /ptg/ .. .part of a group that aims to bring discussion level down on /sg/

>If the Houthis want to win the war, they have to capture Najran and the nearby airbase. They have to force the KSA Air Force into a less desirable position.
t b h, they can win by bleeding the Saudis enough that they have no choice to withdraw. The Saudis are already wanting out of the war, so all the Houthis have to do is keep playing the Long Game, and they will win. Capping Najran and the airbase would be bringing the war to the Saudis, forcing the Saudis to commit to the war, plus it risks American intervention on the behalf of the Saudis.

I got called an anti-semite for criticising Israel on r*ddit today. I feel like I've gone through a rite of passage.

darnit, I accidently (you)'d myself.

Shit tastes, Dia Kurosawa is best waifu

To be fair first one wasn't that over sized but yes the cow tit posting had to stop. It's disgusting.

Here you go senpai

>>literally sitting around for 3 years while getting airdrops all day long
t.newfag
>>btfo by sand and wind
Yeah I'd like to see you defend half a city during a sand storm
>>looks like Santa Claus
That just makes him even better

>unironically shilling for Jewish puppet
ШEШ

Did you even read my post? There are no proven smuggling operations for Iranian equipment or personnel.

>implying there are any better alternatives
ШEШ

At least capture Najran or the Airbase. Najran is a Shiite majority city, I think the citizens would be happier with the Houthis over the Saudis; The Air base because it would piss off the KSA and would bring hearty chuckles here to /sg/.

Or better yet, you should do a shop on this

Just because I browsed Trump General in 2016 doesn't mean I'm a saboteur from /ptg/.

>Confederate flag
I live in the southern USA.

>photoshops Hezbollah
Original meme by Germanon, also prettiest, and an ally of Assad/Russia.
>Russia
I'm a Russiaboo.
>Syria
Syrian Civil War, Russian-allied flag.
>oversized women
They're what I have on my PC.

So this was empty after all.