Daily reminder that Sup Forums is a Christian board and no amount of r/atheism invasions will ever change that.
Enjoy arguing with Gaytheists, enjoy watching them squabble and show they have the theological knowledge of a 12 year old. Enjoy them failing again and again. Enjoy this because you are better than them Sup Forums, and you always will be.
Deus Vult.
Deus Vult! Join us on /christian/ imageboard and discord. Links are in pic related, Christians of all denominations that follow the Nicene Creed are invited. God bless!
Make sure you agree with them. Other wise they will go full 1984 on you and ban you. For a bunch of complainer that complain about censorship against them for disagreeing with Leftist they will have no problem doing the same to you.
>Buddhists btfo Muslims in Myanmar
>Hindus and Sikhs btfo Muslims in India
>Slobodan Milošević, an atheist, btfos Muslims harder than anyone in recent European history
>Christians bomb the shit out of his country to save Muslims
>Christians open up sanctuary churches to protect Muslims
>Christians get down on their knees and kiss Muslim feet
>Edgy Templarp teenagers shitpost on Sup Forums about how atheism is responsible for the downfall of society and how Christianity is
Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, and Christian Scientists are not welcome and they're not Christian.
Papists tread the line.
...
Deus Vult.
So you start a one-sided thread about JW allegations and an actual JW isn't allowed to answer them? Worst than that you ban them?
Isn't that the kind of censorship you guys complain about from the Leftist?
JWs are not welcome on /christian/
Deus vult!
Hypocrite.
Well he's promoting Christianity with degenerate Japanese pedo cartoons, so he's already gonna have a bad time. Still, JW and Mormons aren't Christians, sorry to inform
You want to put that to the challenge or are you going to try to get me banned again here too?
He called him Father.
>aren't Christians, sorry to inform
Why? We do everything in the name of Christ. We are the only ones following one of the most important commands of Christ that YOU don't.
>“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them.”—Matt. 28:19.
>(Acts 14:21) And after declaring the good news to that city and making quite a few disciples, they returned to Lys′tra and to I·co′ni·um and to Antioch,
>(Acts 1:8) but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”
>(Acts 20:20) while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house.
>(Acts 5:42) And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
I don't see you guys of any other sect following that obvious important command up above.
We shun holidays because they are evil. Dec 25 is not the Birthday of Jesus, it is the birthday of Saturn. We shun halloween because it is occultic. We shun Easter(Ishtar, goddess of fertility) because it is the celebration of a pagan goddess of sex. We shun Valentines day because it is the celebration of Roman orgies, blood.
Isn't that the Christian thing to do? Shun things that offend God?
Christians believe in the Nicene Creed. It's the unifying statement of Christian belief across the world. Tell the class what JWs think of the Nicene Creed
You again. Yes, he called him father BUT still sanctified and vindicated his name PUBLICLY. That is undeniable.
>Daily reminder that Sup Forums is a Christian board and no amount of r/atheism invasions will ever change that.
Why is it, you guys always advocate for Christianity and Christianity only? What of Pagans? What of the agnostics like myself? open to the possibility that a divine being/s may actually exist, but until you show me the evidence of such, I shall remain neither an advocate for, or against the idea.
I too advocate for morality and the value of religion if it instills such morals amongst its peoples. But why can't we all get along and take out our true enemy, Zionists and Communists? Atheist's are ignorant, I'll give you that, they use the argument of science, yet ignore the fact that unless science can disprove something, then the outcome is still open to interpretation.
Here, I'll get you started:
JW denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. The Nicene Creed is considered heresy by JW, therefore it is not Christian.
>Tell the class what JWs think of the Nicene Creed
(2 Timothy 4:3, 4) For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.
(Titus 1:14) paying no attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn themselves away from the truth.
(2 Peter 1:16) No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted YOU with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence.
(Matthew 23:38) Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.
Give me a minute before you go to sleep.
>Give me a minute before you go to sleep.
Looking forward to the response, 6:18pm here in Aus, plenty of time.
Get out. You are in a non-Christian cult. carm.org
>JW denies the deity of Christ,
Now we are getting somewhere. No, we don't deny the deity of Christ. We just deny that certain deity is God himself. The Bible doesn't deny the existence of smaller gods who are called angels in the Bible. Angels, Satan, demons, Jesus, and even humans are titled gods.
>>(1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
Jehovah made Moses was a god
>(Exodus 7:1, 2) Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. 2You—you will speak all that I shall command you; and Aaron your brother will do the speaking to Phar′aoh, and he must send the sons of Israel away from his land.
>(Exodus 4:16) And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him.
That's why Jehovah is the God of gods
>(Deuteronomy 10:17) For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe,
>(Psalm 82:1) God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges:
>(Psalm 136:2) Give thanks to the God of the gods: For his loving-kindness is to time indefinite;
The Bible teaches that there are many gods. In verse 5 above it mentions "whether in heaven" which means there are those who are called "gods" in heaven. Since there can be no false gods in heaven this leaves only one conclusion. That Jesus, the Angels, Demons and Satan are those gods.
actually, fuckface, Sup Forums is a board of many opinions, no matter how politically incorrect; it's what makes Sup Forums Sup Forums
no matter how much you arrogant self righteous cunts push your personal views, the other views will never be dispelled
go fuck yourself
Voltaire was anti-Semitic.
You use evolution to justify racism.
Atheism Minus should be a perfect ally for you.
He never called him anything other than Father. Nice chatting again. Now explain for me why you don't believe in the trinity. I mean you personally, not JW church speak.
You said you were going to get to me, I'm getting bored.
Paganism is a monstrosity Christian people have abandoned over thousand years ago, which in the Western world most factually, made it extinct. Your neopaganism comes from a neoclassical reinvention of the 18th and 19th century. It's wholly illegitimate though personally I do respect that you recognize divinity in the universe, however fallacious it may be. Stay out of our threads
>muh crusades
cringe
yet another thread where so called christians show their wilful ignorance of the essence of their own religion and their determination to ignore direct moral injunctions given by jesus christ
>crusades
>deus vult
>papism
>idolatry
>murder
not christianity
pic related seems to be what the majority of so called christians believe
>divine being/s may actually exist, but until you show me the evidence
This is why Theoretical Physicist and Quantum Theorist believe in an intelligence designer.
However, I will demonstrate a SPECIFIC creator to you.
>(Isaiah 44:6) “This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.
>(Revelation 1:8) “I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
>(Revelation 21:6) And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.
>(Psalm 90:2) ... Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.
>(Jeremiah 10:10) But Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite.
PAY ATTENTION HERE
>(1 Kings 8:27) “But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!
PAY ATTENTION HERE
>(Deuteronomy 10:14) Behold, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, EVEN THE HEAVENS OF THE HEAVENS, the earth and all that is in it.
The first set up above describe God in an INFINITE EXISTENCE beyond all time and space. That's why God is the beginning and the end. The second part describes God as being bigger than the universe itself. The third is describing different dimensions of existence. That's why heaven has its own heaven. It's describing different dimensions. God is bigger than the entire universe but also probably the multi-verse and all dimensions. He is infinity itself. No other god/gods is described in such a perfect state. All other ancient gods were animals, humanoids living underwater, on mountains or in the clouds.
The Bible completely contradicts it. It doesn't make sense. Let's start with the holy spirit.
Let's start with a simple one shall we? The Holy Spirit: What exactly is the nature of the holy spirit in comparison to God and Jesus? Let's let the Bible tell us.
>(Matthew 12:28) But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
>(Luke 11:20) But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
>(Exodus 8:19) Hence the magic-practicing priests said to Phar′aoh: “It is the finger of God!” But Phar′aoh’s heart continued to be obstinate, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had spoken.
The holy spirit is not God but GOD'S FINGER.
Here is the holy spirit again described as God's finger on tablets:
>(Exodus 31:18) Now as soon as he had finished speaking with him on Mount Si′nai he proceeded to give Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone written on by God’s finger.
>(Exodus 34:1) Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Carve out for yourself two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I must write upon the tablets the words that appeared on the first tablets, which you shattered.
>(Deuteronomy 9:10) then Jehovah gave me the two tablets of stone written upon with God’s finger; ...
>(2 Corinthians 3:3) For YOU are shown to be a letter of Christ written by us as ministers, inscribed not with ink but with spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets, but on fleshly tablets, on hearts.
There are more verses to this conclusion. (Psalm 8:3) (Psalm 19:1) (Psalm 102:25) All of them point to the HS not being God but being AN EXTENSION OF GOD himself.
CONTINUED...
I remember when r/atheism was a collection of anti-religion jokes. Then the mods and the newfags took a shit on it and now they are a cancerous mass
faggot its because western churches are weak and change to the likings of people and people are liberal degenerates. come to eastern europe and you will see our attitude towards muslims
Now Jesus.
The verse below completely invalidates the belief that God was conscious in Jesus while simultaneously being in heaven himself.
>(John 8:17, 18) Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
If Jesus and God were the same person, same mind, same consciousness, the Law of Two Witnesses would not apply to Jesus testimony. This law could only apply if TWO DISTINCT INDIVIDUALS exist.
Not only that but Jesus makes it very clear that he has his own power of choosing, his own faculty of consciousness, and his own wishfullness and desires SEPARATE and DISTINCT from his father. All that I just said is described in the Bible as "will" and "initiative."
>(Mark 14:36) And he went on to say: “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; remove this cup from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want.”
>(Luke 22:42) saying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
>(Hebrews 10:9) then he actually says: “Look! I am come to do your will.” He does away with what is first that he may establish what is second.
>(Matthew 26:39) And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”
>(John 5:30) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
>(John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.
CONTINUED...
lesbian bishop? what kind of christianity is that
>Your neopaganism comes from a neoclassical reinvention of the 18th and 19th century. It's wholly illegitimate though personally I do respect that you recognize divinity in the universe, however fallacious it may be. Stay out of our threads
Neopaganism... Said the neochristian...
I'd ask you for citation but we all know you religious regards don't understand the meaning of the word.
Father, Son and holy spirit.
The Father is a complex form.
The only offspring or son of God is life or living things.
The word is the holy spirit. It tells us of the Father.
These three things although separate things, where one in the beginning, neither could exist without the other. This is the trinity.
*were
>However, I will demonstrate a SPECIFIC creator to you.
This demonstrates your belief system to me, I don't deny you that right. But it still does not provide any proof on the matter, nor does it remotely resonate within myself.
This is why I've only just recently dabbled with the idea of religion, and taken an entirely different approach to the matter:
philosopher.eu
Why does the god of goat fuckers need shills? Isn't he the bestest god in the universe already?
>(Hebrews 5:8, 9) Although he was a Son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE from the things he suffered; 9and after HE HAD BEEN MADE PERFECT, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,
>HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE
>HAD BEEN MADE PERFECT
This is AFTER Jesus went to heaven. After going to heaven he learned obedience from the things he suffered.
questions:
What could God ever learn? Doesn't he know EVERYTHING already and always knew everything?
How could God learn OBEDIENCE? Who would God ever have to OBEY!?
How can God be perfected? How can God be perfected THROUGH obedience if he has to obey NOBODY!!
The person above in that verse is someone who had to:learn, obey, and be perfected. That's impossible for God.
>(Matthew 24:36) “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
>(Mark 13:32) “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.
If Jesus and God are the same person how is it possible that God knows the time of the Armageddon but Jesus doesn't? How can you keep a secret from yourself?
How do you make sense of the fact that the Bible describes the HS as a mere finger and hand? If I didn't know any better it seems like the HS is no more God than your hands/fingers are you. They are just a part of your body but not you. The HS is just a part of God that he sends out like you stick your fingers out and interact with everything around you.
>(Matthew 12:31, 32) “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against THE SPIRIT WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. 32For example, whoever speaks a word AGAINST THE SON OF MAN, it WILL BE FORGIVEN him; but whoever speaks against the HOLY SPIRIT, it WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
>Sin against Holy Spirit
>Unforgiven
>Sin against Jesus
>Forgiven
How can Jesus and the HS be the same person?
The Holy spirit is the word of God. Does it not mean that speaking against Gods word will not be forgiven?
Honestly, the only thing you can do is ignore them. Most of them are beaners so they automatically lack the mental capacity for any kind of real reason. It's also why so many of them are anti-white.
Pray for the edgy Atheists to see the light. We will need them for when the Muslim Jihad becomes a full civil war and the Z. O.G government enables them to rape and pillage with impunity.
May God protect us and I it us all I'm the massive shit storm that is to come.
Fuck your gay cuckold god. I follow "Bob".
Pay attention: Where did those ancient sand people get the ideas of extra-dimensional non-corporeal beings beyond the space-time continuam? Where did they get the idea of someone being bigger than the entire universe itself? Where did they get the idea of a being that extends from past, present, and future simultaneously? Where did they get the idea of a living infinity?
All other ancient cultures described their gods from limited human points of view. They described their gods as animals, plants, animal-human hybrids, and fully human figured. They placed those gods in locations humans could see from the oceans, rivers, mountains, sun, moon, stars, sky, clouds, etc.
Yet the God of the Bible is described in a Quantum state of existence. In a state of existence that most educated humans can barely understand today.
Tolerance is a false idol and should not be worshipped.
(((Swedish)))
Sinning against God is forgivable, sinning against Jesus is forgivable. Sinning against the HS is UNFORGIVABLE. No the HS is not the Word of God. The word of God is either the Bible, his commandments, or Jesus title. But the HS is not the word of God.
The HS is also the MOUTH of God. (1 Kings 8:24; 2 Chronicles 6:4; 36:12,21; Ezra 1:1; Isaiah 1:20; 40:5; 45:23; 48:3; 58:14; 62:2; Jeremiah 9:12,20; Ezekiel 33:7; Micah 4:4; Matthew 4:4; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:17; 28:25; Hebrews 3:7; 9:8; 10:15,16; 2 Peter 1:21)
The HS is constantly described as a thing and not a person.
Humans have authority over the holy spirit and give out holy spirit when necessary. 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6; Act 19:2-6; Act 8:9-24; Deut 34:9.
You cannot have authority over Jehovah and Jesus and give out Jehovah and Jesus.
>Yet the God of the Bible is described in a Quantum state of existence. In a state of existence that most educated humans can barely understand today.
Well you've certainly take the standing of a pseudo-intellectual, do I detect a hint of Narcissism?
Truth is, there are gods far older than your own, so why is 'your god' the one true god, and why is your god so difficult to relate to? In addition to this, why do you not practice the old testament? Should Christians really be adhering to an altered book, a book that has been watered down if you will?
The word is a spirit. It has no mass or form yet it exists.
>The HS is also the MOUTH of God.
That would be his words then? Also everything you mention there comes in the form of words.
>Humans have authority over the holy spirit and give out holy spirit when necessary.
We can use words. The Father gave only man the word.
Stretched out, shuddering,
Like a half-dead thing whose feet are warmed,
Shaken by unknown fevers,
Shivering with piercing icy frost arrows,
Hunted by thee, O thought,
Unutterable! Veiled! horrible one!
Thou huntsman behind the cloud.
Struck down by thy lightning bolt,
Thou mocking eye that stares at me from the dark!
Thus I lie.
Writhing, twisting, tormented
With all eternal tortures,
Smitten
By thee, cruel huntsman,
Thou unknown — God!
>Well you've certainly take the standing of a pseudo-intellectual,
Go study Quantum Physics, Laws of Physics, Abiogenesis, Mathematics, Consciousness, String Theory. That alone proves the NECESSITY for a creator.
>Truth is, there are gods far older than your own, so why is 'your god' the one true god, and why is your god so difficult to relate to?
Because he's an extra-dimensional non-corporeal being outside the multiverse and is pure infinity. That's why it's hard to understand someone like that. We only understand his qualities but his nature is beyond our ability to fathom. We can barely understand a simple tesseract in the 4th dimension let alone someone outside all dimensions.
>In addition to this, why do you not practice the old testament?
Those were laws ONLY FOR THE JEWS. That is known as the Mosaic Law or Covenant of Moses. Christians are not held under that rule book. We are under the Covenant of Christ.
>(Romans 10:4) For Christ is the end of the Law(MOSAIC), so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.
>(Romans 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.
>(Ephesians 2:15) By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace;
>(Colossians 2:14) and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.
>(Hebrews 9:15) So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
You claim you understand it, yet you can't actually back up your assertions. That's intellectual dishonesty. Sorry, but that shit won't wash with rational people who actually think.
Also, your 'god' can be replaced with any other 'magic' and the argument still stands. You've demonstrated sufficiency, but you've failed to demonstrate necessity.
A cherry picked image stating the fault of science over time... I shall await an atheist to counter your image with his own. It solves nothing and gets us no where.
>Those were laws ONLY FOR THE JEWS.
Your religion stems from the JEWS, does this make your religion less noble, less truthful?
lol that picture is even more retarded than religion.
fuck off, you're just as bad as the muzzies
Please read the essay from C.G Jung, if you want to convert those around you, you need to adopt his methods. I've gone from Atheist to Agnostic to now dabbling with the thought of Odin and Paganism.
My reasoning:
It feels natural to me, as do the Greek and Roman Gods, it appeals to my heritage. Now, in saying this, I'm not going to climb a mountain tomorrow and make an offering to Odin, but I will adhere to, and admire anything that resonates within myself.
>You claim you understand it,
Where did I make such a claim? Last I remember I claimed we can barely understand a simple tesseract in the 4th dimension let alone a being outside all dimensions.
>yet you can't actually back up your assertions.
I did. Go study Quantum Physics, Laws of Physics, Abiogenesis, Mathematics, Consciousness, String Theory. That's months and years of study. That alone is the entire board of /sci/. That's why I cannot demonstrate it here.
>Also, your 'god' can be replaced with any other 'magic' and the argument still stands.
Unlikely because of this The Bible was written thousands of years ago by sheep herders, ancient kings, scribes, prophets, fishermen, etc. Where did people like that get such knowledge?
>You've demonstrated sufficiency, but you've failed to demonstrate necessity.
I just did you ignored it.
please tell me more about josephs' wife's son; i heard he was pretty redpilled
Dude, take a step back, ignore everything that has been drummed into you, and try to look at your statements through the eyes of someone who is curious and does not take words for gospel.
"We only understand his qualities" is what you said. Learn to read what you post.
The Bible doesn't demonstrate science in the slightest so I have no idea why you're trying to push it as some form of scientific literature.
You actually haven't demonstrated necessity... if you did, you'd have restated it. You people are so pathetic - all you've done is re-iterate your assertions and you think that's all you need to do.
Sorry, but there are way smarter people than you out there and you think you've discovered the 'answer' that they haven't? Get over yourself.
no.
You didn't pay attention to what I posted. Pic related, those are all the covenants of the Bible. A covenant is a contract between man and the divine. Christians are not under the contract of the Jews because it was for Jews ONLY. That's why Jews were not allowed to mix with goyim because it was heretical. Once Christ died his death FULFILLED the Covenant(contract) of Moses. Jesus stared A NEW covenant(contract) between himself and Christians. That's why Christians don't sacrifice animals, practice Sabbath, and get circumised.. Those laws were only meant for Jews. Now that Christ died and was resurrected he has REPLACED the law of animal sacrifices, circumcision and the entire Mosaic contract. That's why Goyim can now approach God without animals sacrifices and being circumcised.
>Sorry, but there are way smarter people than you out there and you think you've discovered the 'answer' that they haven't? Get over yourself.
There will always be someone smarter and greater, this is why absolute truth needs to be the only goal, humble, open and free from speculation, at least be honest when you're speculating. It's all that anyone asks; you're no better than an atheist, portraying your bias, advocating on behalf of all those beside you.
Are you claiming Sup Forums is a retarded board?
>It feels natural to me, as do the Greek and Roman Gods, it appeals to my heritage. Now, in saying this, I'm not going to climb a mountain tomorrow and make an offering to Odin, but I will adhere to, and admire anything that resonates within myself.
Sounds like you're looking for meaning or spirituality?
>gaytheists
>gay theists
BTFO
>Odin and Paganism
>It feels natural to me
>it appeals to my heritage
kek'd Your ancestors were christians. The civilizationn you admire was built by and for christians. The morals you admire are christian morals. If you want to worship gay pagan """(((gods)))""" then have a better argument that this. Furthermore, truth is not what "feels" natural or good. If that was the case, trans faggotry and gay marriage would be perfectly natural, because it makes those people feel good in first place, even if the regrets later on. And not even truth but capital Truth. Because only God is Truth.
It's fine - though sad - if you want to be a contrarian and abandon society and what built it, but be straight forward with it without making up dummy reasons.
addition: I mean believe what you want, but you obviously feel the need to justify your "belief".
Life is the only son of God.
Bump for importance