This is the thread to settle this once and for all.
Taxation is theft, prove me wrong
>inb4 he gives me a reason taxation is necessary or is done with good intentions
That's not what I asked, I want you to prove to me how it's not theft. It's okay if you admit that it's theft and just say it's "necessary theft" or something, we just need to get past this orwellian wordflip thing where you pretend something is not what it blatantly is, and then we can continue
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I'm playing devil's advocate here.
It isn't theft when it's paid voluntarily.
Taxation is definitely theft. Just let the commies and fashys kill each other while we profiteer from their ignorance
It's necessary theft because people aren't smart enough to use toll roads even for their own good.
>"Taxation is theft, man"
So we go full libertarian, and get
>"Toll roads are theft, man"
The initial immorality of taking money from people is outweighed by the good their money will do in the hands of smart people.
you are allowed to donate money to the government voluntarily, they don't consider it a tax. The tax is forced, by definition.
What is and is not "theft" is defined by law. The term has no meaning prior to legal definition. In a "state of nature" there is no theft.
what do you mean? People use toll roads now
Taxation is theft but usury and engineered market crashes are okay right?
I don't think that's backed up by history, is it
usury is great, engineered market crashes is caused by governments only afaik
>Taxation is theft
It is.
>prove me wrong
I not prove you wrong. I prove you jailed.
>"m-muh rights!"
You only have said rights as long as the state guarantees them and enforces their protection. Rights that the state and it's people see as not benefiting the society and it's security are meme rights.
Yes it is.
Look, I hate commies a fashys as much as you do. But here's the thing, we have to have a certain amount of tax for the public good. For stability. I agree that it should be as little as possible, but take this example:
The founding fathers of the US fought a bloody war to expel the crown because they were taxed without representation. How did they pay for this war? They ratcheted up taxes virtually as high as they were before. What was the difference? They were represented in the legislature.
Democracy is tyranny, but a republic provides us with the perfect balance.
bc they are giving back a service
Ownership is a right granted by the state, and by extension all property belongs to the state. So no, taxation is not theft, the state is just taking back what is rightfully it's own.
People use toll roads now but that system couldn't have gotten us nearly as many roads as good old fashioned theft.
And to guarantee my rights they start by stealing my stuff? How bout I fight for my own rights, or voluntarily pay people to do it.
Products that you buy tend to be pretty shit if you are forced to buy it, if you can call that buying, fyi. So of course, the government will do a terrible job protecting your rights from others, AS it continues to perpetually violate them itself
pls where?
Fuck off collectivist scum
Come in MY home, on MY land and tell me that.
Not theft, because we have to pay --some-- for the social contract "Leviathan" to work. We must not only give them sovereignty, but also money for it to function. Otherwise, you are freeloading.
--Playing Devil's Advocate here--
Taxes are a component of the social contract
Engineered market crashed are caused by the centralized banking system which is not part of the government. Also how is usury great? It's a net drag on the economy in the long run. It leads to inflated prices of cars, education, and houses.
>pls where?
At any level of anarchy (properly understood as near power parity between actors).
Ownership is not a right granted by the state, ownership, before the state is a right granted by force. Therefore, ownership pre-exists vis a vis the State.
how did they get into this position where they have the right to decide all ownership is ultimately theirs? I might like to put myself in this position
Most people regard it as a necessary evil.
Calling it theft or not is a moot point that doesn't mean anything.
businesses give back services, they don't tax me.
Exactly. It is the consent of the governed that gives the State ITS rights.
Without the government a pack of niggers could squat on your land and you wouldn't be able to do shit about it. Your guns won't protect you when 200 armed bandits come storming into your house.
Not stealing is a part of the social construct.
Taxes are literally a violation of the social construct.
Why come to you when I can just take out half of "your" money from every pay check you take home? If you wish to violently oppose the greater good (anarcho-tyranny) of the country and race we have plenty of good country loving individuals who can dispose of you like the human trash you are.
They do charge though.
Some services are just too much to let businesses run though, like policing. Tying it to profit and competition with no oversight opens it to a lot of bad practices.
how is a centralized banking system created and perpetuated by the government not considered part of the government?
well cars and such might not exist if usury didn't exist. It's needed to start new businesses and such
This Pepe speaks to my soul. I will fight for you mein constitution.
So all social programs should be charity funded
Roads are a necessary means of defense and a benefit of trade. Let us return to the method of the Romans. The military will build the roads and build some other infrastructure including farm infrastructure then lease it off to people.
It's not forced, you can just go to prison and have your property stolen if you don't pay it.
I, my family, and my community will shoot those niggers just as we'll shoot you and anyone wishing to push their tyranny on us.
My principles have created the greatest superpower in the history of human civilization.
>freeloading
>off a service that is forced on me
thats like those guys in the city who take a pic of you then try to make you pay for it. Except they just try to guilt you into it, the government actually uses weapons for it
It's not theft because you're supposed to move to the bahamas if you don't want to pay them.
If the country you live in is full of negroid retards who think 50% of their income could be invested better than in themselves, just leave. You'll be happier that way, plus they will starve to death.
And who has the monopoly of force? Oh right, the state.
The people have decided to give an entity the monopoly of force to dominate them for their own good. Convince people to give you the monopoly of force and you too can rule.
And yet the hand does not rebel against the arm because it realizes it relies on it. No man is an island.
The other day an user was talking about the percentage of work that was stole from black slaves in America. He said it was about 80%.
So there you have a pro "taxation is theft" argument. If a certain degree of taxation can be considered slavery, then at least at that point it can be considered theft.
Just need the sources, since I did not archive the thread.
The services the state provides are different and furthemore so for the protection of national territory and order the State should have monopoly on violence
Of course taxes are not fair, but in a place without a state there is no injustice because the idea of justice doesnt exist, so injustice doesnt exist, and so do taxes, as Hobbes say so.
>ancraps
Get the gas, Bubi.
Taxation is theft. But such a simple declaration is meaningless. Meat is also murder but I don't see veganism as a pillar of liberitarianism.
What is proper justice?
If you are using public services, the security of a nation's military, the use of a nation's roads, and the very legal system that protects you from the tyranny of your neighbor then you should be banned from using these services if you don't contribute to the common good. Otherwise you are performing an act of theft of the collective by not contributing.
How is benefitting from the security of the nation while not contributing also not theft?
>And to guarantee my rights they start by stealing my stuff?
It just says you have no rights for that part of your stuff.
>How bout I fight for my own rights
You can take your dad's rifle to school and fight for your own >rights there. See how far it takes you.
>voluntarily pay people to do it
Pffhahahahah. Sorry you're not living under communism. Scarcity is a thing. Survival of the society is not something that can be left to your desire to share shit.
>Products that you buy tend to be pretty shit if you are forced to buy it, if you can call that buying, fyi
Well by the principles of free market it's your >RIGHT not to buy said products. I mean nobody really >forces you to drink water or eat food or wipe your ass amirite.
>So of course, the government will do a terrible job protecting your rights from others
As per principles of free market, you are free to try and to it better. Start by kicking the current government's ass. Proceed by somehow NOT becoming a new government afterwards.
> get the gas
> commit suicide when the gas bill arrives
Pay debts.
>points gun at you
>says "give me your wallet"
it's not forced, you can just get shot if you don't pay it
>pic
Does that imply vegans are mentally weak because they don't work out?
Are you arguing that the federal reserve is a state institution? Are you arguing that houses, transportation, and education didn't exist before usury? Medieval serfs had easier access to permanent shelter than we do today. Natsoc Germany banned usury and the people had no problems buying cars, houses, and an education.
They never banned ususry.
and so taxes too doesnt exist*
kek you're delusional if you think America owes its global power to libertarianism.
of course its theft
they literally put you in jail for avoiding it
>And yet the hand does not rebel against the arm because it realizes it relies on it. No man is an island.
You're not wrong. I am loyal to my flag, my constitution, my community, my family...
Not too many differences between me and the fashys right? Except I reject anyone coming here and telling me, or us how to live or what to think. Those of us who take up these principles and respect the identity of the individual while joining forces with others who share those principles are the ones who have inherited human history.
The only different between you and I is the principles we embrace. We've already defeated your ideology once and we'll do it again, as we will for all time.
Come and Take It motherfucker. Liberty or Death.
Exactly!
You are not properly a "sovereign" until you reach a certain age (usually 18). Until that age, your parent consented for you. At that age, you can move away to another state, or become stateless.
The US did not come about by means of socialism or state tyranny, friend.
There's no way to define taxation as not being theft
You can only give excuses to why it's "necessary"
No theft is defined by our genetic understanding of fairness. What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours. Maybe you don't have these genes. Maybe you should be gassed in a shower.
Nope. They are all theft. End usury. Control the big corporations and let the small guys flourish.
1476 is the way my friend. Not 1488. Authoritarian Libertarian. The Constitution is the dictator of the government. It is time we have LibertyInOurNation. We the people must again be the authoritarian and benevolent sovereign of the nation and bend the government back to our will. As well I am going over the constitutions and rewriting the amendments and adding some new ones that our forefathers could never have thought were needed in our modern age. Who then would have thought that shall not be infringed or even the 9th and 10th amendment would be so abused.
>We've
absolutely pathetic
enjoy the niggerized spic hellhole that awaits this nation, you fucking faggot.
the federal reserve is created by the state, gold was rounded up by the state, they now print off money for the states whims, and the IRS still forces us to people to pay taxes in dollars, keeping us reliant on the fed. We had decentralized banking and currency until the state got involved
Cars certainly didn't exist before usury. Lack of housing is from government housing controls, all this shit is government limits on the ability to produce and sell these products. Usury only eases production
>No theft is defined by our genetic understanding of fairness.
My genetic understanding of fairness tells me that it's fair for me to fuck your mom, your wife and your underage daughter because I'm a stronger and more dominant male. It tells me to group up with other dominant males and gangbang yours and your friends' daughters because you are weaker. It tells us to establish a system under which we - strong, responsible, cooperative and productive people - get to procreate, and faggy losers like you get cucked.
> Control the big corporations and let the small guys flourish.
Can't handle the competition? What are you, a socialist?
>We the people must again be the authoritarian and benevolent sovereign of the nation and bend the government back to our will
Literally Leninism.
Loans were issued by the state at fixed low interest rates or no interest at all, depending on what the loan was for.
It isn't theft because it's supposed to be given back to you in some form. Ie roads or education.
Gov requiring your money to build useful, necessary things, some or all of which you too can use isn't comparable to having your property taken away and never seeing it again. Also, you do get a kind of say in the matter, in that you can choose to move.
It's a dumb fucking analogy. I'm not saying it's necessary or even right (the market can do many things), but the analogy is fucking stupid no matter what side you support.
>state tyranny
The current US was born in the Civil War, one of the most brutal examples of state tyranny in history. It's global power is the result of immense taxation allowing for a massive military.
Liberty endures, ye tyrant.
Ours is that granted by God. Yours is not.
Gott Mit Uns, you fool.
theft is a social construct, faggot. I don't care.
Ancap is basically what the world is already. 99% of people are just the property of a select few who are enjoying the benefits of ancap society.
...
And how many times has the post-civil war US gone to bat for the liberty of western civilization?
Certainly more often than the Germans.
You wish to replace one tyranny with another. I wish to live in liberty. In the grace of God.
>Taxation is theft, prove me wrong
I can't because the basic principle behind taxes is the same as protection money and other forms of extortion. The difference is that the Republican government is supposed to be manned by your peers and elected officials as intermediaries for the greater system. Even this is the basic premise of the "no taxation without representation" concept. You can justify taxation if you're represented and treated as a human being.
I'm not a big fan of entertaining the notion of Anarchism. I believe that Anarchy itself, in any form, is unsustainable for reasonable lengths of time. Intentionally decentralizing authority is a power vacuum first and freedom second. Best case scenario, there is tyranny of the majority as mob justice rules. Worse case scenario you've got commies, nazis, and every other brand of authoritarian asshole beating down your door within months.
Taxation is theft. But such a simple declaration is meaningless.
Meat is also murder but I don't see veganism as a pillar of libertarianism.
>Using gnostic knowledge
>Hasn't realized God is the truth
>The Lord created all animals to serve us
We can't mate, it's objectively theft. That's the point, that's why the government does it.
See pic.
Who says what services need be provided by the state?
Rights do not come from the government they come from a higher power. I am entitled to ownership of the things I make.
Die Commie.
The Government is a necessary evil to be watched like a badly trained attack dog. Its time to upgrade the constitution so we can remove commie filth. And train a better guardian of our liberties.Taxes are theft and they are a necessary evil to support the state in the legitimate functions of the state. IE the biggest military the GDP can support to intimidate every 2bit dictator from ever wanting to fuck with up.
I understand devils advocate. However we can and should agree that it is theft. Necessary as it is for the social contract. As I am sure Thomas Jefferson would agree we are over due for a revolution. LibertyInOurNation. Let us instead talk about how our social contract might be improved to give us more liberty.
The Demands of a Lion.
We demand the following amendment to the constitution.
Taxation - As all individuals are equal before the law all individuals will submit to a flat federal income tax. This tax rate while not in times of war shall be 12% with a mandated 6% dedicated towards military expenditures. The remaining 6% shall go to the operation of the federal state with optional limiting moral choice by the paying citizen allowing for program exclusions. It is the responsibility of the government to increase the production of the nation if they wish to increase the income generated by taxes. In times of declared war the military taxation rate may be increased as needed for the prosecution of war but shall be drawn down in by 50% per every 2 years immediately on cessation of hostilities until the non wartime rate is restored.
>taking my money and giving it to niggers who hate me
>"given back to me in some form"
Does Norway have public schools?
Ancaps are just selfish greedy people, no country can ever be stable with full libertarian system.
>See pic.
See pic. Something tells me the State wins by fragcount. Also, your picrelated:
>a useful idiot who attacks one government to establish ANOTHER government.With taxes and shit.
uses commie gun
kek
You always have the option to move. The governement doesn't force you to live here. They do force you to pay for the perks of living here tho. If yoy see states as corporations competing for the best pool of workers, then supply and demand ahluld dictate that if there is a demand for a meme country like the one you invisiosn, then there would be one. However, there isn't, and you just make sensible libertarians look stupid.
>Whenever a communist is losing an argument he points to some pre-industrial age.
Yeah, it was more oppressive but sex was cheaper back then.
Decentralized banking was a result of state regulations limiting the size they could reach. Centralized banking is actually caused by the state giving up the power to print its own currency without a bank loan, how is that an expansion of state authority? The federal reserve is not and never has been part of the state, it is a private corporation with only de facto legal authority.
You're kidding right? See pic related
Do you like getting free primary and high school education, living in a house/apartment in your country, medical attention, preventing and stopping fires and having the cops keeping a modicum of peace in your country?
That's why you pay your fucking taxes.
can't be theft it wasn't yours in the first place
the land is not theirs to force me out of, just because they claim ownership of it. They did not create the things that make the place worth living in, they just come in and tax it afterwards
You can't live a healthy life by just eating plants. Also how is meat murder? Animals aren't human thus no murder can be commited against animals.
R
O
A
D
S
1476 comrade, our blood will once again water the trees and free men from the chains of slavery. Our fathers showed us the way. Uncle Adolf will inspire his own children again some day soon. Oh and sorry if your German. 1488 by all means then.
Oh yea when did that happen?
We the people must again be the authoritarian and benevolent sovereign of the nation and bend the government back to our will. I am going over the constitutions and rewriting the amendments and adding some new ones that our forefathers could never have thought were needed in our modern age. Who then would have thought that shall not be infringed or even the 9th and 10th amendment would be so abused.
If you see any that you like or want to critique please say something. They will only get better through adversity.
not when you consent to it
>see pic
>picture of a man with an AK running around in the chaos that was the Romanian revolution
>he held and fought with that AK for nothing - the state is still led by ex-commies and businessmen
>taxation still exists in Romania
What's your point?
They do not create it, but they fascilitate it. Just how corporations don't make the prodeucts consumers buy, the workers do. If the State sets up rules, private security, utilities, and other services aren't you inclined to pay rent? Otherwise you are trespassing and stealing the services.
ok, no, they definitely didn't just give it over, they used military means to take it, always do. I am one of the people, I certainly didn't decide to give them this power, and none of the people around me did.
Do you have some Gulag-related BDSM fantasy where the guards rape your starving body? If not, then your defense of gulags is invalid.
it would happen without them, it does happen in fields they aren't even aware of, their "facilitation" hampers things, if anything. If "facilitation" actually helps a business, then that business can pay for it privately
>Taxes are like 40% of your income
>" Dude don't you like all that FREE STUFF lmao"
Give me a break . Taxes are just like insurance nowadays. There is no such thing as free lunch in this world, you pay for everything.
Not sure where you're from but here it's:
Taxes pay for
>Healthcare
>Road Maintenance
>Muh Welfare (cuts)
>Development
>Police
>Fire service
>Making it so I can actually live my life without some commie cunt taking my shit
It's not a defense - it's just stating the obvious: crying >MUH RIGHTS will not protect you from being raped by a powerful establishment. You need to be stronger than said establishment to protect yourself from it - and by that point you become another establishment and do the raping yourself to sustain your power.
He doesnt pay taxes, its money taken from him aka theft...
Stay retarded gypsy bro
No, things like politics need to be beaten like a dead horse. It is theft. It is necessary. It is evil. Question it always. Your liberty is important. Fight for it or lose it.
I think its time for a contract renegotiation.
Also, yes - I DO have a Gulag-related BDSM fantasy.
It's cultural, okay?
The story is always the same: the stronger dog fucks.
If you do not want to pay taxes, go become a politician.
1. Yup your a fucking barbarian. Please enter the shower you sub-human scum.
2. The Founders did not have the same problems we have now. Weeds have grown up in the garden of out grandfathers and its time to pull the weeds and replace them with productive things. The constitution must be strengthened with liberty for the individual and the protection of his wrights against those that would take the sweat from his brow.
3. Funny. Normies respond to the same words. I want a revolution for LibertyInOurNation.