Thoughts on universal basic income

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It sucks.

NO! NO NO!

BAD TOUCH!

more control, the population will become reliant on the government.

Good goy, pay more taxes to slowly redistribute the wealth

only works in a all white society

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Conflicted because I hate communism but I love being a NEET.

How can the billionaire globalist elites that right wing retards worship, serve and obey possibly afford such an extravagance? pic related

It would destroy the economy. The low wage working class has little incentive to work as it is, introducing basic income will just make this worse. People need to be rewarded for working, otherwise theres no point in working at all.

I'm glad to hear u support a $15/hour min wage.

Really I just think it needs to be rigorously tested before anyone moves forward with it. I mean, the main complaints are "it'll make people lazy, there'll be no progression in society, no one will strive for anything" or something to that effect. That's certainly possible, so let's give it a small test run and find out for certain rather than just speculate over it. Take a few towns, put everyone on UBI, see what happens over a set period.

stop with this fucking meme you cuck

this is fine

the implication here is that you could possibly coordinate a government effort to give everybody free shit and actually take it away at a later date rather than just using it as a bargaining chip for votes

eventually muslims, blacks, women, etc will argue for more on the basis of ((("oppression")))

Universal Basic Income is not the worst of all plans, though personally I prefer negative income tax w/o benefits-based welfare, but the core problem humans face are not based on resource acquisition but existential threats due to a lack of self-generated meaning. UBI/NIT schemes do not address this and therefore will fail.

Not only do they not address the issue, but they make it worse, being an active subsidy on self-centred, asocial behaviour and further reducing the necessity of the family.

The problem with small test runs is that it's hard to extrapolate, first because they're usually in fucking Finland or wherever so we don't get to see how some real niggers live with UBI and second because you really need UBI to persist for a couple generations before you have an understanding of how people's lives will change. If you're only getting UBI for a couple years your behavior isn't going to change much. If you're born into it and it'll never be taken away in your lifetime, things are different.

This, as well as the fact that one of the main things that would occur would be a transfer of resources from those outside that town to those inside the town, and people would move industry there more quickly than residence, giving it the appearance of an initial boom. It would essentially make them slave owners of the rest of the nation.

NEVER NEVER NEVER

Just a cheap ploy to make us all reliant on government but HEY FREE STUFF DUDE WEED LMAO

Gibs gibs gibs gibs gibs gibs gibs

Yes I agree. We some indication of this as the increasing hysterics of lefties even as society does more and more to accommodate their greed.

I wonder if it can be implemented on a voluntary, charitable basis. Say, in all members of a certain community receive periodic dividends that come from mutual donations, which, in turn, are encouraged by some system of bonus points

Just fantasizing.

This is possible, though it would essentially be tied to some sort of community service or moral upstanding. People would not give charity money to a town wherein everybody spends their gibs on drugs and prostitutes.
This obviously depends on how common it is for people to hold such charitable values, though I'm not sure such places would be that common, as the cost of living there would be higher for rich people than poor people (provided rich people pay more than poor people - otherwise people just give themselves money equal to what they put into the pot).

In my opinion, there's much more likely to be a restrictive church-type poverty charity than a universal "charity".

Odds are niggers are already collecting welfare, so you might as well extend that shit to whites who are also struggling. Ever try collecting benefits? They usually make you go to an office run by niggers and if you're white/asian they give you an extra hard time and ask you a million fucking questions, whereas blacks can show up late and without their paperwork and the employees bend over backwards for them.

Lmao, priceless mate!

Making it easier for whites to be parasites would not benefit white people.

Absolutely retarded and unviable until we have Star Trek tier replicators and unlimited energy to power them.

At which point it is unnecessary, anyway

Who the fuck is paying for it? It won't be the fucking rich that's for sure.

It will happen when capitalism has siphoned profits into nothingness, like musk said, not something he wishes but something that is going to happen.

Give every citizen central bank-backed universal income for necessities. Let cryptocurrency be unregulated for any other purchases such as luxuries, media content, games, concerts, etc etc

Most jobs in develop societies are already pointless busy work.
>Food for about 600 million people around the world and in America are produced by 1% of the country's labor force, just a few million people.
>More vacant homes than homeless people
>So many clothes people just throw them in the trash every year and don't even bother to donate to good will
Most jobs are bullshit. Even the bullshit jobs are being automated. So you're going to have hundreds of millions of people all over the world who have no work available to them no matter how hard they look or retrain.
So your options are either send these people to kill each other in war, or give them basic income, or wait for them to get hungry and start killing people to get what they need to survive.

Really, most people just don't understand how ridiculously productive we are now. A company of a few hundred people literally produces all the chocolate for an entire country. Even shit like computers and tvs, there's one company of a few hundred who makes all the actual screens, then there's different companies who all take the exact same screens, change some settings, add a few extra software features, slap come branding on it and sell against each other in a 'competion' that only ends up employing a few hundred more people while increasing the price dramatically to cover the extra expenses.

We have so much productive capacity that one of the biggest problems we have now is making up dumb jobs for people to do so that the people who do the major work don't get all butthurt about other people getting "free stuff" without doing any work.
Even in fucking cryptocurrency, virtual money, we had to come up with bullshit "work" where you just leave a bunch of GPUs eating electricity doing math problems to "earn" money.

It would be the best thing possible but never going to happen.

The way things are I see this as a prudent outcome, but only if they can automate industry. The down side to this it brings full government control. Since they started this problem this will be their "solution". The sad thing is they will log all citizens via biometrics, and create deficits with goods related to events or status for population control. The poor will remain forever poor, and the rich forever richer. Some people watching this won't get this probably, but this is their aim and so while it will help short term the long term is malicious. Either complete collapse in the most violent of ways for all regular citizens or enslavement not seen before in the whole annals of human history. While they fight for pronoun usage right now.

The problem is there's no rewarding work left. And it is getting worse with more automation and machines.

Really most of the work we do these days is arbitrary. If the work doesn't produce food, clothing, or shelter, then the work is arbitrary. We could require people to log in and play rounds of Destiny 2 with other people online and in return get paid Basic Income and it would serve as much purpose as the vast majority of work in the developed world does right now: creates value, people have fun, while building social relationships through stimulating group activities. That's all work needs to do.

If you really tried you could wipe easily wipe out 50% of the existing jobs in developed nations and not decrease the productive capacity of real goods any way whatsoever. All you'd do is eliminate incomes for those people and make them unable to purchase necessities which would lead for producers of necessities to lay off people in a vicious cycle of further unemployment and depression.

We don't need 8 billion people working when enough necessities for everyone is made by a few hundred million. Look at the hundreds of millions of people who do "marketing" and "human resources" and all sorts of other bullshit that doesn't produce anything of real value. This is all busy work the world can do without. But if they don't have money then they die and other people get laid off too.

It's going to have to happen, capitalism cannot survive as it stands now with no demand, or little demand for labor. That's a lot of people out on the streets. There is a breaking point when it comes to income inequality and we are reaching it.

IF they show the mathematics behind it to cost it all, then sure, go for it. A free grand a month for everyone instead of all other welfare is an awesome idea, yet I very much doubt it has been costed at all.

Just show us the maths. None of these UBI proponents ever do, though.

Its a scam. Part of the package is to privatise all services now provided by the government. You are no better off and you now have everything provided privately.

Upper middle class and richer MIGHT benefit. Everyone else will find themselves exactly as poor as they have always been, minus public servies.


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They did this in the 60s, 70s and 80s with the unemployed as their test group. The results were amazing. People got their shit together, and bucked the fuck up. It also saw a massive increase in the divorce rate at a time when that wasn't even a thing in scoiety.

However, it has never been tested on the employed. What would the effect of giving someone on minimum wage UBI? Would they go to work to top up their freebies? What would people earning avergae wage do? Would they continue to work, or would they all immediately go part time? What effect would that have on society, the economy?

That's what needs testing.

You can only effectively run a UBI with a change to monetary policy.
michaeljournal.org/articles/social-credit/item/douglas-s-three-propositions

Create only enough new currency to fund new production, pay back the currency (destroy) when the production is consumed.
"The cash credits of the population of any country shall at any moment be collectively equal to the collective cash prices for consumable goods for sale in that country, and such cash credits shall be cancelled or depreciated only on the purchase or depreciation of goods for consumption."

Allow for investment to be made from newly created money, rather than only from savings.
"The credits required to finance production shall be supplied not from savings, but be new credits relating to new production. "

Distribute cash to people as the production raises rather than only as income from employment, to allow for more automation.
"The distribution of cash to individuals shall be progressively less dependent upon employment. That is to say that the dividend shall progressively displace wages and salaries."

Do you honestly think they will just give you cash for nothing and ask for nothing in return? Its part of a package of changes that would also see public services and public sector jobs scrapped and or privatised. You would be required to spend most of the money on a mandatory health care insurance and the rest would go to your landlords bankaccount. The sudden injection of cash into peoples pockets would see jump in GDP but also sharp inflation. Quickly your UBI would not pay for rent but your public services would still be gone and you would have to find a job.

Your government would do nothing but collect taxes and wage war. It would be very very dystopian.

>Making it easier for whites to be parasites would not benefit white people.
Yes it would, because whites are culturally averse to accepting anything from the government and many rather just not have children and die instead of accepting benefits. This leads directly to white suigenocide unless UBI is applied.

It isn't "parasitical". We developed machines and automation and mass production. The benefit of mass production is a few people can make stuff for millions. But instead of reducing the workforce and letting more people enjoy life you want to have all those millions doing pointless busy work to "not be parasites".

There are now entire industries devoted to creating the illusion of value to get you to buy bullshit you don't need, and you hate them for that. But if they couldn't do that then there'd be no work for them at all. Because you don't need 300 million people growing food, cooking food, making clothes, building houses, and other necessities in America; we'd produce so much stuff supplies would so far exceed the demand that the price of everything would be nearly zero and all that work would be for naught.
It only takes a few millions workers in America to produce everything needed by hundreds of millions. That means you have to make up bullshit work for hundreds of millions more Americans, most of that work scammy and corrupt.

Or you could just give everyone UBI and people would be able to survive and live happy lives doing whatever they want, creating content online, playing social games, exercising, whatever without being forced into bullshit jobs to survive.

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it can't be done in the u.k , the u.k is in massive debt because of paying benefits to everybody . no political party will say they will cut this spending or everybody living on benefits wouldn't vote for them . giving everybody free money would bankrupt the country even more

That's interesting. So... translating that to a paperless economy, we'd essentially get credits of say, 1000 units a month, that would reset every month regardless of how much or how little you spend? There'd be no currency savings, per se, just the resetting credits?

That sounds remarkably like communism, however. And as we know, communism fails because it runs against human nature. (And is also tyranny, obviously.)

my opinion is let someone else try it first.

>Sell all public services
>Profit is guaranteed because the government gives money to the plebs to use the services
>Inflation quickly renders the handouts miniscule but the government got their privatization through as well as made money at they time and paid down debts.

Yeah something like this will be necessary and is actually very similar to what originally occurred in America before the revolution, and the revolution was a reaction to attempts by the Monarchy and East India trying to wreck the economy for being way too productive.
Similar methods were employed in NatSoc Germany.

Slippery slope to welcoming communism aka Jewish slavery with open arms.

good if all other welfare is abolished

There's no human nature, not in the way you suggest. Whatever system humans grow up in that's what people think is natural. Right now you think social security and car and health insurance are natural, that public education for children is natural, but it hasn't been that way for all of human existence.

Inevitable.

Students going to college now already know they are disposable, they are unemployed in advanced, this is the belief these guys have because I go to school with them. They know they will not likely get a good paying job. It's not like they wan't to be lazy. I don't think someone who gives up their entire Saturdays and Sundays to learn is lazy, they see the reality of it. I don't think you can call someone lazy for not wanting to worry about making rent each month, especially when cost of living, rent prices continue to go higher while job opportunities and pay continue to go lower. UBI is coming, just a matter of time now.

It can be easily finance if we take all assets from the rich that they are hiding from taxes.

>That's interesting. So... translating that to a paperless economy, we'd essentially get credits of say, 1000 units a month, that would reset every month regardless of how much or how little you spend? There'd be no currency savings, per se, just the resetting credits?
>That sounds remarkably like communism, however. And as we know, communism fails because it runs against human nature. (And is also tyranny, obviously.)
No. You can keep as many credits as you want. You can spend them on anything you want.

More to follow this will take a bit to write out.

I suspect you are correct, yet take a look at the Welfare pot, it's fucking massive and every expansive, based on shitting out kids and whatnot. Pensioners living for-fucking-ever and the like. It dwarfs military spending four times over. It's easily twice if not three times what we spend on the Holy NHS.

If we took the same pot and just split it evenly between adults - no special pleading, no "I've got seven half-caste kids by the same dad so demand more" - then nothing structurally changes.

It's still smacks of communism by the back door, though. So yeah, your right, it needs to be discussed and dissected, but we can't even do that if nobody produces the maths.

I'd fucking love it, I'd quit right down to half time, fuck work.

Literally 'sounds good, doesn't work' in real life.
But I hope they go for it and see what it will cause. They should try it in UK, so the immediately get punished for leaving the EU. Win-win for us.

But that's already happening in all western nations anyway.

why not just do ubi in your city?

It wont work.

My proof? Bill Whittle said so.

Necessary to implement full automation, but will create HUGE inflation in certain industries.

When will this socialist bullshit ever ends?

Its a poor mans communism, for the poor but its mostly just capitalism and a rich persons idea of efficiency.

Oh and a middle class existing is considered an inneficiency.

I know a better solution: Deregulation and lowered taxes, make new jobs cheaper to create.

Cool. What's stopping me quitting society altogether, buying a tent and living in a forest for ten years eating fish, berries and squirrels while my UBI just builds up in the bank for my now-rich return to society in two decades, then?

Or even just "people who own a house" just never going out and eating tuna and cheap bread and doing the same thing? Again, human nature suggests we tend to min-max our opportunities.

How poignant.
People supporting UBI seem to think prices for goods and services will stay the same.

It's communism and voluntarily slavery. I don't need a nanny state to control my life, my reproductive organs, and my mind fuck communism, fuck kikes, and fuck you

Notice how it only says rich, the precious Apple, Google, etc.; paragons of liberal virtue are the ones hiding money away.

I'm sure you think rich people just put all their money in a savings account or something too, but then again, you are a retarded Canadian, so....

Look into the details of it. Its far right capitalism. Just like when you look at the details of almost anything now.
>Social liberalism and anti racism
Cheap labour. Renters. Creates inflation. Creates wage stagnation. They might even take out bank loans
>UBI
Abolish social services and fire the public sector. Creates inflation. Means less government spending. Puts more money in the hands of the rich.
>We have to work against climate change
We have to buy german, French, british, American and Chinese electromotors and stop buying oil from developing nations. Secure the energy supply and prevent so much money from leaving manufacturing nations.

>do UBI in small city
>dumb niggers and lazy fuckwads crowd to that city because paid for nothing
even if UBI did work, the shitty commies that believe in it wouldn't be pro-borders lel

Imagine that a dollar is worth something, and youre given money to do something worthwhile. If youre given "worth" for doing nothing, that immediately defeats the purpose of it. free money means nothing (inflation works to prove this)

If you get paid to not work, what's the point of working. There are already federal programs in place to assist those in need. If the government keeps those programs around and implements universal basic income, there will literally be no incentive to work.

If I was rich in a country that attempted to implement this, I would take all my assets and move elsewhere. This is what socialists refuse to see for some reason, the rich people they expect to finance their social programs are the only ones with enough finances available to them to just up and leave if they try to extract their wealth from them. No one who has something that is theirs is willingly going to allow someone to steal it from them who hasn't had to do something for it, especially when they can easily avoid it all together.

You can try universal income, but I doubt it will work. All it will do is give you guys more Germany level gibmedaps immigration because you are literally paying people with other people's money just for being alive.

Normies don't want to live as Varg. The general public is terrible with money and will spend it all as soon as possible.

they'll bring millions of africans to their country if they implement this.

forget about it, they're ALREADY bringing million of africans every year

I think it's fantastic. Hopefully it is implemented so we can ruin the economy of this country and bring about another Hitler.

When I fiance production I may opt to borrow that money from a commercial bank, that bank charges me an interest rate, and that bank borrows money at no interest from the national bank.
The commercial bank is required to pay the national bank back 100% of whatever they borrow. They can charge interest on the loans they make to employ people to judge if businesses are sound to make loans to and to handle the banking transactions.

My production company calculates how much it will cost to make my production, make my profit and pay back the interest. I borrow this from the C-bank. When I sell my production to a retailer or to another step in the production chain, that business does a similar calculation to what I did, unless they are retail.

If they are retail they have a profit percent that is set for them. They can still set their own price to meet their costs of goods, labor, cost of sales. But their profit is a fixed ratio lets say at 10%. The more they sell the more they profit. They get their profit when they report their earnings that match to sales. The national bank will create new credits for retailers at their set profit rate and give it to them.

***The retail price does not include the retailers profit.***

The UBI is calculated from the total production in a period of time and the total consumption in the same time. So if we make 100 billion and consumed 75 billion we have a ratio of 3/4. Or a 25% reduction. That means we create for the UBI 25 billion.

Or we can operate the government without collecting any taxes at all if it cost less than 25 billion. Or we can do a mix and offer a negative sales tax, a UBI and run the government. All without taking any taxes from any person.

quit spouting this fucking meme. UBI isn't necessary and full automation is a meme

I really hope they do it somewhere in Sweden or some other shithole, I want them to collapse already.

>$15.00 by January 1, 2018
>homelessness on the rise in Seattle
>(out of labor, or "true" unemployment) 2016 WA 10.9%

Yeah, a real utopia.

Look into the details of it. Its to scam retards. As a young man in perfect health, with a job, I would DEFINITELY benefit from UBI.

I just think its disgusting to mislead people. My taxes would go down and I dont use any public services so who cares if they are privatised at the cost of handing out what would quickly become a tiny amount of money. Inflation is a thing. No matter what they promise to hand out, it would quickly become a small amount of money.

>Hopefully it is implemented so we can ruin the economy of this country and bring about another Hitl
i didn't expect this to be the reason you like it

980k xD much more. And 80% in catalonistan

TAXATION IS THEFT

Commie's taking it's first steps!

Yeah, but even that is small when distributed.

$21,000,000,000,000 just distributed in the UK with a population approaching 70,000,000 is a mere $300,000 per person, not actually enough to live on in the long run at all.

Sure, it would be a lovely present to wake up to on Monday, but it'd soon be back in the pockets of those self same people who have it right now.

Like most political doctrines, it would work if society were majority white and not infested with welfare leeches. Alas, the values of hard, honest work and honor are dead. The Jew has killed them.

If anything, goods and services are going to get a lot cheaper. As a college student going for my AS in metal machining, stuff is about to get a lot more easier to produce and it will be thanks to breakthroughs in technology and expiring patents. There will just be no money to be made like once before, the days of profit receiving priority over all is going to come to an end. I mean say what you want about Elon Musk, but he couldn't be more right on the topic of there being abundance soon.

Population of England is 53 million, assuming it's 1,000 pounds per month per person (not removing kids, etc just a rough estimate). We're looking at 636,000,000,000 per year.

>In the financial year 2014/15, the UK government spent £258 billion on welfare, which made up 35% of all government spending

Basically they would more than triple the spending to over what would basically be 99% of government spending on a UBI.

>Cool. What's stopping me quitting society altogether, buying a tent and living in a forest for ten years eating fish, berries and squirrels while my UBI just builds up in the bank for my now-rich return to society in two decades, then?
>Or even just "people who own a house" just never going out and eating tuna and cheap bread and doing the same thing? Again, human nature suggests we tend to min-max our opportunities.

Because you would make vastly more money for working even a little. You must understand that the difference isn't between right now and everyone getting a few thousand a month. But rather a life when people that work live the lives of our upper class executives while working middle class jobs. Would you work 30 hrs a week in an middle class job and enjoy a life style of someone making a million a year (currently) or would you live in the forests eating berries and squirrels so you can save up your UBI to live like someone currently making a million a year for a few months before going back to your woods?

I share his opinion. Mass imigration wil stop when the day socialism run out of other's people money.

It's the Cloward-Piven strategy, a soft entry to communism.

It's designed to crash the system. Radical communists (mainly Jews) have been promoting it since the 1960s. The math simply doesn't work out, but that's by design.

Just another kike scheme.

>Sell all public services to private ownership
>Fire most public sector workers
>GDP goes up
>tax collection goes up while CORPORATE taxes go down
>Inflation quickly diminishes the costs while the benefits will pay dividends forever

Governments would save quite a lot of money. There is a reason its being tested everywhere. They are testing to see just how stupid the working class are.

Okay then, that's better than the resetting credits thing, at least. It's a fundamental change on where money comes from, basically. It would also seem to suggest UBI is a little like Profit Sharing? If we all work hard, we get more UBI; if we quit down to part time, we get less?

Definitely interesting, and for the first time ever the maths is starting to form.

>My taxes would go down

How do you suppose this? The money will have to come from somewhere. Any greedy rich person who has any sense of self preservation would get the hell out the second any sort of country wide ubi program gets implemented. This leaves the middle working class, who didn't have enough money to get out themselves (i.e. You), left to finance the whole mess. Now you faced with paying 35%+ income tax on to of the huge increase in inflation just so Ahmed and Jaquan can have their monthly reparations.

It simply won't work because humans are inherently greedy, and no one who has the means to leave is going to just stick around and let themselves be robbed in order to finance the lazy and unmotivated. That leaves people like you and me footing the bill.

There will never be post-scarcity, even when mining asteroids in outer space. The nature of commodities will simply change as the market evolves. There will always be a demand for steel, it will always cost money to either melt it down or dig up iron ore.

6 billion people living on 2$ a day are yet to climb up the ladder and participate beyond shitting in the streets, there will always be demand that outpaces production.


>college student
Yes, please continue to enlighten me with your vast knowledge of economics.

The name is social credit and makes the assumption that while not legally owners, all of society can be counted as part owners of all the production of society.
The first link I gave goes into way more depth, than with the character limit I can get into here.

The basic idea is that the cost of production is the total consumption within the economy. That is take the output of an economy it costs exactly the value of everything the people consumed in that period of time.

>Racists see black men, I see men in professions dominated by jews
what did he mean by this

UBI would save a government a lot of money. That is where the interest in it comes from. Its not for the benefits of the poor. I have already described where the savings come from.

If you cant comprehend where the savings come from then yes, UBI is just free money. You should definitely vote for it.

Yeah, that's sounds nice. Yet as we've seen in the thread already, it's not going to work out like that, is it?

We'll have a lot more money, and then be faced with a lot more costs for public services we essentially take for granted right now. "Just don't get ill" seems to be the best case scenario.

Gotcha. That's how they intend to pay for it all, short of re-imagining money altogether, which they probably won't do, ever, because it's ultimately about power.

Shame, it's be nice to ponce off on UBI and only work part time for luxuries, if that. I'd buy a better boat and fish for dinner all day. I'm getting good at cooking mackrel.

Helicopter money fiat extension