Libertarian Socialists, UNITE! Libsoc Thread

Do you wonder how the NAP can apply to the collective ownership of the means of production? We have the answers for you!

>join with people who want me dead

pass

Those guys are unreachable, I'm talking about the ones who want communities to control the means of production, but we sell them the NAP philosophy

We will never be allies until you stop believing in retarded memes like surplus labor and class warfare.

Well that's the thing, in an NAP loving society it's possible to have a charismatic leader sell the merits of a classless system in his organization of consenting adults.

Aristocracy is the natural way of the world. Every time humans have come into contact with one another, they have assembled into a hierarchy. One day you socialists will be working in the mines for your failure to adapt.

But see, that's just the thing. Socialism and communism can only be ethically justified as voluntary systems, and I doubt enough people would volunteer to surrender their capital in order to uphold such a system. That's why every socialist and communist nation in history has been coercive.

But seeing as how real socialism has never been achieved, it's not really fair to say that it doesn't work. Libertarian Socialism organized around the NAP totally would.

Ya that's what I'm saying, it's much more ethical to organize voluntarily. And if any AnCap tries to fuck with our set up and violate the NAP we'll fuck them up!

>A
>FUCKING
>LEAF

For anyone confused, Libertarianism was originally a collectivist ideology in line with anarcho-Communism. Murray Rothbard changed the meaning in the US, but it is still a Socialist ideology internationally.

What books are there about it.
I want them all!
I always thought that it was weird that they had the possibility of getting along with each other

b8

Akchooally no, I'm hoping to write a book on it.

To my knowledge, the word was used in Communist/mutualist magazines and journals. If full books using the word from the late 19th century exist, I'm not aware of them.

This is similar to how the word liberal was taken from classical liberals by Progressives in the early 20th century United States via The New Republic, a Progressive magazine.

>*anarchism

It's comforting to hear that libertarians are finally admitting they are anarchists though.

Fpbp

Again, though, I sincerely doubt you'll get enough people to sign up for that and keep it going.

It sounds like a failed college experiment, like the Stanford prison stint.

If your goal is collective ownership of the means of production and you want to fit in the NAP, just use fundraising to amass the initial capital. And see how it goes.

Frankly speaking, I don't see any problem if someone starts raising funds and launching their collectively owned shit.

Sounds like, *gasps* a corporation.

Well that by definition makes you a Libertarian Socialist. Welcome to the club

Also, we would fund raise with bitcoin

It's more like a co-op

I find myself in the lower left quadrant of the political compass, so I really would like to believe this is possible... but doesn't all taxation violate the NAP? How do you guys manage to overcome this seemingly blatant contradiction?

Well in the collective, we'd get you to sign a contract saying "We'd like you to pay us this money, and we'll use this money to make things great for the group" so it's not theft when it's voluntary. It's like buying shoes from Walmart, Walmart isn't holding a gun to your head for money and giving you a shitty pair of shoes. No NAP violation with a voluntary tax you sign up to pay!

Are you a mutualist or a more general type of libertarian socialist like an anarcho-syndicalist, etc.?
As opposed to retarded ideas like the entirety of ancap?
Libertarian socialism isn't opposed to hierarchy inherently.

Oh, so its basically a socialist contract in a collective set within a larger AnCap society. Sounds reasonable. No rich people would sign the contract, but I guess you are counting on poor/middle class people to "make it big" and then you would get a lot of tax revenue from them. And then I guess you use whatever enforcement mechanism exists in the broader society for other contracts so that the people who "made it big" don't break their contract and leave? What mechanism would that be?

I am not, in fact, but this approach is the way to go if you want to get along with market libertarians. Most of the so called socialists really don't. But when you simply act as an actor within the market paradigm, managing your resources and profit on your own terms, no one can object to that.

The problem is probably to come up with the culture of collective management. It's not really inborn.

I'd say more towards the "mutualist" side. I don't seek to organize the entire economy. I think the economy should be organized by what works best, but there are gaps and ppl with unmet needs. A co-op were the community controls the capital based on economic planning for our own organization can fill in these gaps. Outside our collective, we would be risking an NAP violation if we encrouch on the wrong property.

Also, how do you handle children born to parents within your system? Is education mandatory? Is there an age below which they can voluntarily leave?

>act as an actor within the market paradigm
More like a stateless paradigm with actors who use either capitalism or socialism. I guess in an AnCap society this would be the case. In an AnComm society if people adhere to the NAP there might be one person who uses the price system and, if the other AnComms don't want an NAP violation, they'd let it happen.

In both instances, you get a LibSoc kind of society with a mix of collectives and corporations.

And the collective management would possibly represent most corporations...although CEOs and others can be recalled faster or whatever

the asymmetry of the red and yellow is aggravating the shit out of my autism

Well a collective would let the parents make those decisions until such time as the kids reach an arbritrary age where consent and the NAP will start to apply. The kids would have to sign a contract like the parents, but the parents can send the kids away before they reach this age of consent cause we'd treat the kids as the parent's property.

Can you do better? That was the best that I could do

Do a few measurements, I reckon it's the same area at least.

Would you be opposed to a social democratic society with a state which still provided a generous welfare state, universal healthcare, housing, a low work week, vacation benefits, etc.?

Not really, cause ironically a massive economy would be hard to plan, plus fuck the state #RoadsAreTheft and they get away with a lot of NAP violations. Seriously, I'm not a big fan of pure communism.

I like all those things, but if the government forces taxes from you and it isn't voluntary then it's not as moral as a voluntary system. I'd prefer it if the gov't was like "you can pay (x) money to either the free health-care, educaiton, housing, etc and we'll match it".

> I like all those things, but if the government forces taxes from you and it isn't voluntary then it's not as moral as a voluntary system
But a purely moral voluntary system is autistic and impossible to reify. Why oppose a social democratic system which would work extremely well and provide a basic minimum for everybody then?

Top quality shitpost m8. Australian worthy even.

Yeah it's autistic as fuck, but so is AnCap and AnComm ideologies. In the real world we already have this. We have the right to form co-ops with a market system (though my thought experiment puts this in a free "anything goes" stateless economic system") but we have retarded state imposed rules and such.

Everybody stop pretending like you know what the fuck you're saying and get a job

What faggotry is this? If taxation is theft why the fuck would I allow the state total control of the means of production? This sound an awful lot like a sneaky attempt to step on snek.

Not the state, the community.

But honestly, the state says they are the community cause "muh votes" so I can't blame you, even though the state turns on those who it's supposed to help so I don't blame you.

Technically in this thought experiment, a community is a group of people 10+ that collectively control the means of production to produce shit they need and trade the rest to get other shit that they need.