Raising the minimum wage to $15 would cause crippling unemployment, just look at Seatt-

>raising the minimum wage to $15 would cause crippling unemployment, just look at Seatt-

Other urls found in this thread:

youtu.be/NhvB3eyQQpM
hooktube.com/NhvB3eyQQpM
nber.org/papers/w23532
danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/minimum-wage-increases-are-bad-news-for-low-skilled-workers-in-general-not-just-for-those-who-lose-their-jobs/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_recession_in_the_United_States
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Bill_Clinton_administration
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession_in_the_United_States
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administration
seattletimes.com/opinion/uw-minimum-wage-study-doesnt-reflect-reality-of-work-in-seattle/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

...

Sup Forums cannot refute quads of truth

>wages went up
>EARNINGS went down
youtu.be/NhvB3eyQQpM
You fail at economics forever.

>linking Business Insider youtube
Hooktube that shit to prevent views. Just change the domain in the url.

hooktube.com/NhvB3eyQQpM

Fake quads.

Neat.

You cant trust these statistics, theyre using loopholes to look good. Same thing is happening here, they say the unemployment rate is going down when its going up, especially after taking in a whole city of muslims and africans

Unemployment is the wrong metric. You should be looking at business and job creation not job retention.
Another good indicator for if a minimum wage hike has succeed or not (hint it won't) would be price indexes for various goods and housing. However given how recently the wage hike took place the full ramifications won't be present in current data.

Are you showing the unemployment rate for just the city of Seattle and not the metropolitan area? When you look at most cities, you'll see very low unemployment numbers, although many people whom live outside of the city will get jobs in the city too.

>(((business insider)))
Fuck off shill

>look at data that doesn't exist
Nice job ya fucking fairy

>they're using loopholes
You faggots are all the same. When a politician or policy you like gets favorable results you spew bullshit like
>4.1% unemployment! Go Trump! What is a fiscal year again?
But when people like Obama caused 7 straight years of job growth he's met with faggots like you who downplay the persons achievements.

You really think somebody would do something like that? Just lie about numbers and rake in more profit?

I'm not saying it doesn't exist I'm saying the current price and housing data doesn't reflect the full ramifications of the the wage hike. I.E. prices haven't caught up yet faggot.

Just call him a racist. He obviously hates niggers, which is the underlying problem.

It'll catch up to them.

Bullshit. NPR the other day was running a story about how food prices were lower than ever and how this hurts the economy so much.

(??? what? where do they even find the people to invent these elaborate games?)

>let's just lie about jobs numbers, what's the worst that can happen?
Who exactly profits in this situation?

No thanks. I'll just call him a dumbass, as this is a much more obvious fact.

Sure, kid.

>B-b-but NPR said
The meme is true

I'm not fully grasping your post. Food prices being low would negatively affect the food producers and people who invest in food futures. However the economy on the whole would at the very worse be the same or more likely better off due to people having more money to spend in other portions of the market they weren't able to beforehand.

Business insider is really trash though.

>posting AJ reaction image
>in a post about fake news
Fitting

Truly

Problem lies in the razor thin profit margins producers are at. This due to cheap illegal labor and gov subsidy

Okay so they hire 3 joses to work 3 3 hour shift s instead of one guy to work a 9 hour shift one statistic doesn't prove anything

>minimum wage to $15 would cause crippling unemployment
said no one ever.
cost of living raise was the issue.
watch.
it takes a bit.
2 years and those fuckers won't be able to afford soybeans.

raising wages isn't the solution though, because inflation is going to keep going up no matter how high you raise the wages. The real fix to the problem is to stop fractional reserve banking. that way you prevent the value of the dollar from continually shrinking,

>implying I listen to or give a shit about AJ
wrong again. kys.

Agreed government protected industries always prove the same point. I can't wait until the subsidies given to renewable energy producers are called into question.

>taking only one statistic at face value when it comes to employment

disingenuous

Seattle itself is in good shape, but every suburban area besides the rich areas of Bellevue have become heroin slums. I swear to god I'm about to start murdering heroin degenerates. They're fucking everywhere.

>labor participation rate increases at the same time
This destroys the conservacuck

>said no one ever
Dude you are fucking retarded. When seattle first introduced this idea, faggots like you whinged incessantly about unemployment rates. Fuck off, retard. Stop moving goalposts and READ THE STICKY

>let's go back to the gold standard
Horrible idea. Finish Econ 101 before you form other half-baked ideas.

>posts AJ
>I DON'T LISTEN TO OR CARE ABOUT ALEX-SAN REEEEEEE

>read the sticky
You're really desperate to out yourself huh?

Ok so what other metrics would you measure Seattle by?

National Bureau of Econonic Research did a study and found the hike failed

>Because the estimated magnitude of employment losses exceeds the magnitude of wage gains in the second phase-in period, we would expect a decline in total payroll for jobs paying under $13 per hour relative to baseline. Indeed, we observe this decline in first-differences when comparing “peak” calendar quarters, as shown in Table 3 above. …point estimates suggest payroll declines of 4.0% to 7.6% (averaging 5.8%) during the second phase-in period. This implies that the minimum wage increase to $13 from the baseline level of $9.47 reduced income paid to low-wage employees of single-location Seattle businesses by roughly $120 million on an annual basis. …Our preferred estimates suggest that the Seattle Minimum Wage Ordinance caused hours worked by low-skilled workers (i.e., those earning under $19 per hour) to fall by 9.4% during the three quarters when the minimum wage was $13 per hour, resulting in a loss of 3.5 million hours worked per calendar quarter. Alternative estimates show the number of low-wage jobs declined by 6.8%, which represents a loss of more than 5,000 jobs.

How do you know the unemployment rate is going up, if you don't believe in the statistics shown?

Do you have some super hidden ultra secret mega statistic, hidden in your porn folder or something?

I just fucking hate it when green faggots like you constantly make logical fallacies when you scroll past this shit every day

>employment losses exceeds the magnitude of wage gains
>Alternative estimates show the number of low-wage jobs declined by 6.8%, which represents a loss of more than 5,000 jobs.
B-but the unemployment rate is 2.6%

How are you so perfect?

I am a small business. I was paying my guys $10hr I was only doing about 100k in business a year but it was enough for my area for me to only pull in 36k a year for myself and my guys were getting by on what I was paying. I was about to get more work for us but....
>$15 min wage- bottom workers $31200 a year
>I have 3 employeesso I am now spending 93600 to pay them
I was making $100000 a year but after tbis increase I have to fire all three employees and work alone, so I will be making less myself but I will stay in business.

People working on minimum wage do not deserve a living wage. This is meant for the most unskilled labor like high school kids. As an adult, you should be able to contribute a lot more to society than a nose-picking 16 year old burger flipper.

However, putting money into the hands of the lower/middle classes is a lot better for growing the economy than giving it to the 1%. Doubt me? Just look at the Bush '90 and Bush '07 recessions - huge falls in the economy after long Republican administrations / wealthy tax cuts.

If you want your own finances to improve, put $100 in the pocket of a wage slave dude. That money gets injected straight back into the economy.

Faggot larper fuck off. You don't own shit.

>I am a small business.

Stopped reading right there.

Link to the study
>nber.org/papers/w23532
Article about it
>danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/minimum-wage-increases-are-bad-news-for-low-skilled-workers-in-general-not-just-for-those-who-lose-their-jobs/

There are other jobs in seattle than low wage ones. It is these type of jobs that saw gains

>Green faggots like you.
For christ sake if I were green I would think that the sticky meant or stood for anything. It's an introduction on how to identify shills. Secondly in no way shape or form did that user "move the goalpost" he made a valid point on the nature of price indexes. You however made a sweeping generalization of all conservative arguments which is a logical fallacy. Back to speaking of shills. Don't think you're fooling anyone with your rude non discussion forming comments that are specifically designed to be inflammatory you fucking shill.

B-but my imaginary plumbing business!!

they didnt even full $15 minimum wage i think only a few comapnys iirc

in what industry are you pretending to be in?
are you zeeks pizza?
i think what people fail to realize is $15 doesn't mean the same thing in western washington that it does in say, bumfuck missouri, and never has.

>It's an introduction on how to identify shills.
No, it's a list of common logical fallacies. Actually read it sometime.
>Secondly in no way shape or form did that user "move the goalpost" he made a valid point on the nature of price indexes.
Incorrect, read his post. He said "No one ever claimed raising unemployment rates would effect unemployment rates" which is a completely false statement. I can point to a dozen Forbes articles warning seattle of rising unemployment but it didn't fucking happen.
>comments that are specifically designed to be inflammatory you fucking shill.
Welcome to Sup Forums, you green faggot.

>iirc
You don't

I am in no way advocating for a $15 federal minimum wage. This would only work in rich cities.

>consumption grows the economy
nice meme

>This implies that the minimum wage increase to $13 from the baseline level of $9.47 reduced income paid to low-wage employees of single-location Seattle businesses by roughly $120 million on an annual basis

>single-location Seattle businesses

That's why this study is flawed. It doesn't take into account nearly half of Seattle's labor force, which conveniently happens to be the ones most likely to see gains under the new minimum wage law.

>raise minimum wages
>even the poorest job workers gets richer
>can spend more
>will spend more
Easy as fuck. $15/hr is pretty fair, economy will benefit from it, at the condition the taxes on wages don't raise too. The net income of family must go up or it's useless

All the minimum wage does is set the bar higher for employees. If someone can't offer a business labour that produces 15 dollars an hour plus profit then the business simply wont hire them. This fucks over anyone with little or no skills.

I should also mention that earnings have gone down in seatle and inflation has gone up.

Sure but it shows that there is downside. And the gains of roughly one half comes at the expense of the other

A list of common logical fallacies to identify shills.

Those forbes articles must have also referenced several other metrics that would prove to wage hike to be ineffective. Even if he made a generalization that doesn't make your generalization any better. And at the end of the day he never moved the goalpost

>Sup Forums is the wacky playground where I can be as bad as I want

Referring to op and other anons as fags and niggers is completely different from what you're doing. Your comments and selective replies read like someone who read an article on buzzfeed, looked at b for a day, read the sticky, then decided to make your very own thread. Congratulations shill.

This doesnt work. The poorest workers are poor because they're working low skill jobs, their productivity is low which lowers the value of their labour. This means if they can't produce a profit for the business because the price of their labour has been artificially raised beyond its value then businesses will be compelled to let them go, lest the business fails.

>Seattle inflation has gone up
To 3%, still totally within normal levels.

Yes but you're going to see it keep rising, when you artificially increase the price of labour you begin a cycle of inflation and needing to again increase the minimum wage, you're constantly playing a game of catch up, its happening here in Australia.

I'm not economist. But I have worked in the real world for 30 years.

12 years of Republican tax cuts for the wealthy resulted in the '90 Bush recession.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_recession_in_the_United_States

8 years of Democratic tax increases and gov't benefits / spending resulted in the 93-2000 Clinton boom.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Bill_Clinton_administration

8 years of Republican tax cuts for the wealthy resulted in the '07 Bush recession.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession_in_the_United_States

8 years of Democratic tax increases and gov't benefits / spending resulted in the 2009-today Obama boom that we are still experiencing
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administration

Forget all the hypothetical studies, theories, etc, and look at the actual economic results. In modern history, every Republican administration results in a recession, every Democratic administration results in a boom.

You want to grow the economy? Tax the rich and give money to the poor.

You need to compare wages with earnings with regards to unemployment.

The problem with $15/hr is that you cannot maintain your current staff without sacking hours or sacking useless employees.

You also need to state the conditions for employment. Does it mean at least 1hr or the full 40?

Also, Seattle ended up receding the decision when they found out that economic studies were failing them.

Nice try.

Even The Seattle Times called b.s. on the methodology of this study, and they tend to be quite critical of new city policies. Aside from ignoring 40% of the workforce, it's counting jobs that raise above minimum wage as lost jobs, which they clearly are not. seattletimes.com/opinion/uw-minimum-wage-study-doesnt-reflect-reality-of-work-in-seattle/

Keep in mind that I'm a brainlet in economics, I just think about stuff by myself
Is there something to prove that raising the wages won't raise the workers' motivation, and so productivity? Because that's what I'm guessing it will happen. What you say is clearly logic and correct, if they cost more than what they're worth they must be fired. But there are ways to fix it I guess. Maybe Instead of putting a minimum wage so precise, we can decide for each sector a certain assured net income the workers must have and fix it accordingly to the value they produce
Tomato pickers instead of being paid so much can just be assured they have a certain % of income
But yet again I'm a dummy in these things, so I can just be spouting idiocy for as much as I know

>Some people can't generate $15 an hour
JUST
Just do the same thing Australia has
Minimum wage around 18
If you aren't skilled at anything then volunteer until you are
Problem solved
>Good way to motivate people into being more skilled,which they will need to be in the long term to sustain a job as automation grows anyway

>But m-m-muh cotton picking 13 year olds won't be able to work for just enough money to survive and too much time to upskill for their entire lives
Lmao at americucks

>Even if he made a generalization that doesn't make your generalization any better.
Neither of us made a generalization. He made an objectively incorrect statement and I corrected him.
>Your comments and selective replies read like someone who read an article on buzzfeed, looked at b for a day, read the sticky, then decided to make your very own thread.
Nice ad hom. Read the sticky, newfag.

Because the rest of the country doesn't have 15/hr minimum wage. The second it does prices will adjust accordingly and basically fuck everybody over except big businesses who could easily take the hit and would love to see small business die out.

>Who exactly profits in this situation?

You are also implying that if it was $15/hour across America, things would be better for everyone.

Not knowing the real reason we have a poverty problem is that people are underworked or not working at all. If you were just to raise the wage to $10.10/hr across the board, you would get 900k out of Poverty while slamming another 40M back into it. With 42M after Obama left under Food Stamps, this is something you cannot afford more of.

You would also be promoting automation and freelance contract work, which only benefits highly skilled people over the lower to no skilled.

>every time minimum wage increases, inflation also increases
Except this has never fucking happened. Look at inflation rates in 1997, the last time minimum wage increased during an economically stable period (looking at 2008 data might be a little skewed by other world events)

You fail to realize that raising minimum wage is artificially increasing the worth of labor under 15$/hr to 15$/hr
If I have 20 people working for 9$/hr (180 total) and suddenly I have to pay them 15$/hr (300 total), I'm probably going to let go 8 of those people to bring the total back to 180$/hr, or rise the price of goods/services to meet the increase in production cost

>Nice ad hom.
I made an objectively correct statement.

>You want to grow the economy? Tax the rich and give money to the poor.
George W knew this. His economic stimulus package of 2008 put $300 in the pocket of every taxpayer. It increased consumer spending, but only temporarily

Yes, obviously. Then, this clearly is not a suitable solution to the poverty problem

You can make an objectively correct statement that also qualifies as ad hominem, doofus.

You're forgetting the economic stimulus gained by all the other minimum wage workers. If all the poorest people in a society suddenly have extra cash, they're going to spend it at your store, increasing your revenue, which allows you to pay your own workers more.

Best minimum wage employees ever.

Forcing people who aren't worth $x/hr out of the labor force, couldn't possibly have any effect on the unemployment rate.

Just look at places where $7.25/hr is a lot of money like Puerto Ri-

Also the best way for a business to survive with such wage hikes is just to reduce the hours or operating business time. :>

Not possible
Go to any manufacturing workshop and ask them to reduce operational time and you'll be rightfully crucified

>His economic stimulus package of 2008 put $300 in the pocket of every taxpayer.

2001, not 2008. I got my check.

This was a cover for a huge tax cut for the wealthy, eventually resulting in the 2007 recession.

And when he was passing that law, his administration was ignoring the "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" warnings from the 2001 summer of alerts, resulting in the biggest waste of gov't money in the 21st century - the War on Terror.

Every fast food place I've seen that added those in Seattle just moved people who had been cashiers back into the kitchen to help keep up the with the increased workload.

>raise federal minimum wage to $15
>the entirety of rural america turns into a crime infested ghost town

so that just means more people giving up on looking for one
kek

>Forcing people who aren't worth $x/hr out of the labor force
Except Seattle's labor force participation rate has remained constant, faggot.
>Just look at Puerto Rico
Nice cherrypicking

The issue isn't motivation it's an issue of skills. Minimum wage jobs are all unskilled jobs, they're jobs anyone can do and so the labour recquired to do the job simply isnt worth much. These jobs are stepping stones that give you experience and money that can be used to either move up inside the organisation or go and get a better job. The only thing you do by increasing minimum wage is lock workers with little skills and experience out of getting jobs because when they apply, the business can't justify hiring them. You are really only hurting people who want to work by messing with wages.

The problem with your suggestion of assuring a certain amount of income is that its again not a reflection of their productivity, some workers work harder than others, I believe their wages should reflect that. What would be better is to pay tomato pickers based on how much they pick for example, the more they pick the more they are paid. This increases their productivity, their motiviation, and doesn't recquire a minimum wage, and you could probably set the price of what someone should be paid per tomato based on whatever the value of the tomato is, which is more objective than the value of someones labour.

He did it in 08 too, but that's beside the point. Handing out $300 one time isn't going to help the economy in the long term. It was an idiotic move designed to curry favor from disenfranchised whites.

The labor force participation rate remained constant, faggot.

Put their cost of living is extremely high. A shitty studio apartment is at least $1,500 a month

Who cares if their minimum wage is higher if the cost of living is higher? It evens out to nothing.

>If all the poorest people in a society suddenly have extra cash
only for those that work for under 15$/hr, everyone else will just see an increase in costs of goods and services without a respective raise in their own purchasing power

like i fucking care

I understand and I agree, thanks for the exhaustive and constructive explanation.
I only recently landed on these topics after having rejected them my whole life and they're pretty cool. It's fun to think about them.

Pretty much. The cost of living had already been skyrocketing here for years.