Why did communism fail Sup Forums?

Hello Sup Forums, I've been reading a lot about communism and it seems like a wonderful system, however i look at places like cuba and north korea and see it failing. Why is it that most communist states turn into totalitarian hellholes? Discuss.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika
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Human nature.

Liberalism is a temporary rebellion against nature.

The right wing seeks to understand the natural order of being and hierarchy.

why does human nature make communism fail? Makes no sense to me

Go back to your containment chamber leftycuck

>Looking for serious discussion about the merits and shortcomings of communism
>expect pol to provide that
I really brought this on myself

Because the transition phase never ends. There has to be someone that decides how resources are distributed. This already keeps the class system going because if even if you had a string of saints overseeing this, eventually there will be a guy who isn't so nice and gives their buddies more benefits than others.

>Why did communism fail Sup Forums?
Did it?

People who have stuff want to keep their stuff. To take that stuff against their wishes requires force. This implies an oppressive police state. Once the stuff has been taken, it has to be redistributed. First you have to figure out how much stuff there is in order to know what to take. This implies massive bureaucracy; everything must be measured, counted, cataloged, permitted, regulated, etc. Once you've taken everything you need to decide what goes where. This implies centralized control.

Communism by definition implies a massive centralized bureaucratic police state. It is highly inefficient, oppressive, and punishes those with the greatest natural ability instead of rewarding them. Inevitable collapse is built into the ideology, and that collapse is only staved off by ever increasing government violence against the citizens and/or plunder of neighboring states.

tl;dr - get a job and pay taxes kiddo

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you are not allowed to bring up china, china doesn't count, it's more capitalist then the US, sure the government owns some shit but it's a tolitarian ancap country imo

fucking...
totalitarian i mean

It didn't fail, it never existed

Correction, it doesn't exist

K, let's expand this question to include socialism, why did socialism fail?

China adopted the 'look to the west' policy then became successful.

Completely wrong analysis full of biases and driven by beliefs without any kind of basis. I suggest you do some further research and reading on Capitalism ideology, before spewing this amount of false information.

it will never work with egomaniac humans

According to Wikipedia is still being ruled by a Communist party.

If you are talking about China it is called the communist party but it is in name only do some fucking research.

files.ethz.ch/isn/132827/ISAS_Insight_134_-_Email_-_China's_Look_West_Policy_07092011133315.pdf

Nationalization is inefficient, and because socialism is built on the promise of welfare and consumer goods for all, countries blow off all their money on free shit instead of reinvesting. This is what happened in North Korea and is happening in Venezuela. That is also ignoring the endemic corruption that comes with letting the state control everything.

Who says it did?

People keep on bringing up China on here China had significant Capitalist Reform in the 80's and 90's . I Had a Grandmother who did Tours in China and her earliest was in the 70's and she said people shat in holes .

It's basically the idea that people aren't motivated to perform labour for the Party, the Doctrine, or the Program. People won't perform excess labour, or even baseline labour, if the only motivating factor is as vague as benefiting "all of mankind". It's similar to how leftism can't solve the compliance issue because people aren't as motivated to bond with every race as they are with their own.

The unbridled degenerate capitalism of today actually has a similar problem, which is that people will work for their own benefit, but even then it's not the most motivating setup either, and it's not a very fulfilling system.

The source of proper labour comes from the idea of working for those who are genuinely close to us. A man will work hard for the benefit of his family without the expectation of any direct reward in return from them. A man will be active in his homogeneous, high-trust community. These are representations of people we do actually care about, they are what we call "naturally compelling" sources of labour. This is why families are typically the foundation of every civilization - they motivate the labour that has built everything we are.

The Communist understands this, but refuses to accept that he cannot extrapolate that desire to see one's own thrive to a group as vague as "everybody" and still get results as fierce as family, nor is his ideology in and of itself possessed of any "naturally compelling" factors, so does not compel compliance and labour. There is no base urge to adhere to the Party, the Doctrine, or the Program. They are abstractions that will not long live in the hearts of men.

The biggest reason is human nature.

Communism can work in small group where everyone agrees to divide up the work and distribute things evenly.

Now try apply that to millions of people. What if enough people decide that they dont really want to work to contribute to the overall good because they get sufficient gimmies from the government or because they are self-sustaining (ie they have their own farm, etc)? You risk the system collasping if you have enough people who realize that they really dont need to work their butts off to contribute to the overall good thus Communism on a large scale is INHERENTLY dictatorical imo because it requires a level of force and brutality to ensure that everyone does what they need to do.

Also the notion that a small group of technocrats can effectively manage an economy just hasn't been proven to work well. You dont even need to look at the poverty-stricken crapholes like the USSER, etc. You can even look at the Federal Reserve here in the US to see that these guys have no idea what they're doing. They cant even figure out why inflation isnt rising (as Yellen said yesterday), yet they're running the entire US economy based on that!

>Communism can work in small group where everyone agrees to divide up the work and distribute things evenly.
this, basically
families are Communist structures
high-trust communities are socialist structures
homogeneous nations are mild-socialist structures
the vaguer the bonds get, the less we care about people, the less extra work we feel compelled to do for them

Well said leaf

>The biggest reason is human nature.

All human beings are born inherently Communists

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>He tries a new way to try to get his commie shit thread bumped
Not gonna happen lad.

Basically communism removes all incentive to work. When you take away the reward that is associated with work and risk then that tends to lead to poor results.

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Also the communist LTV does not match up with human perception of value.

So if it wasn't capitalism and it wasn't communism, what was it?

National Socialism is human nature for sure
there are tiers of desire for cooperation, read
we are communists in our homes and capitalists at our jobs

>Global peace
>Classless and stateless
>Direct democracy
>High level of automation

All of this is shit. Classless and stateless is worthless and leads to worthless people. "Global peace and stability" means the end of history and for that, a one world government, meaning no actual diversity of human thoughts. Fuck that. War is an integral part of human existance.

>Equal pay for all

Humans arent equal and this is a shitty idea.

>Racial and gender discrimination ended

What you really mean to say is that people are individualized atoms with no connections and no sense of community/heritage/tradition. Fuck that.

Indeed there is nothing more dystopian than a utopia. For the essence of human life is struggle, and in a utopia there is no struggle, no meaning, all time is only leisure time. It's boring and there's nothing to do. It's meaningless and void. Fuck that.

If this is indeed the future, then i am born to fight it. And i will kill as many communists as i can.

Not it is not

If you guys didn't cuck out to equality as a god i think a lot of people would be willing to accept socialism. A lot of people correctly criticize capitalism but the best solution seems to be a social capitalism rather than full on socialism. FDR styled income taxes and things of that nature to further the majority of the population rather than continue to push wealth upwards into the hands of people who are so wealthy they aren't even capable of spending it.

>It's human nature
>which is why the government needs guys with guns to maintain and enforce it

ok

>Judge communism by its lofty promises and not its results

then how do you explain the crippling compliance problem your movement is plagued with?
I don't give a fuck about working my ass off for some smelly commie and neither does anyone else
I'll work for my family, for my community, for my race, in order of decreasing intensity
that's just how it is with people

they didn't have a market system. every thing the soviets did was in a highly centalized top down system of control. resources were not qllocated effectively or efficiently.

Take me back to the left please, i want to live there.

Your idea of history, like all marxist "science" is stupid retarded bullshit. It's simply wrong. Whig history is a great lie. The trend of societies is cyclical. Societies rise and fall, and from their ashes rise new societies.

why not just go full fascist economy at that point?

For an ideology that's never gotten beyond the "capitalist authority" stage, you guys sure do have a lot of confidence.

>I've read the promotion material for a pyramid scheme and believed every word
The real reason is that the only places interested in communism are places that are shit to begin with, and they are shit because of the people that live there. When you tell people that have little because of their own ineptitude that they can become rich by taking away the wealth of the few productive members of their society, you only end up with well fed robbers and a dead economy.

Also to embrace democracy is the most autistic thing i've ever fucking heard of, democracy is a failed shit tier system and the decisions shouldn't be made by average men instead of a man of merit.
You would really fight against a utopia just on the basis of there being a lack of struggle? What is the end game of your political beliefs? If that's your goal i guess you should force your people into poverty and endless war, sounds like a great system and you aren't autistic at all.
I am heavily in support of fascist styled economics, i'm a natsoc i just use this flag because a lot of people on here larp as natsoc and then suck capitalist cock.
>National socialism isn't real socialism, i believe 10 men should have all the wealth fuck the people!
That's what a sizable portion of the nazi larper fags actually believe, i understand that you can't determine your position entirely of will regardless of circumstance i realize there are environmental effects and problems with social mobility. A "socialist" society is the best way to determine men of merit rather than a capitalist one in which the majority of men born into wealth will retain that wealth regardless of their merit as the majority of men born into poverty will be stuck in poverty regardless of merit.

>Hello Sup Forums, I've been reading a lot about communism and it seems like a wonderful system, however i look at places like cuba and north korea

Well if you read Marx you would see that communism was supposed to start in the most advanced economy in 1867, which was Germany.

But it first took root in one of the most backwards country, Russia. Lenin said he was just holding down the fort there while the revolution happened in Germany. But a communist revolution did not happen in Germany. The Nazis took over and invaded Russia.

Cuba and northern Korea were not the most advanced places on earth when they were taken over by communist parties. In fact they were colonial backwaters.

All Cuba and North Korea tell you about is what happens when some small country is taken over by people who a superpower does not want to take over that country.

There is a saying on the right "communism has never been tried". But Lenin said in 1917 that communism was not being tried in Russia.

>Daily reminder that communism has been tried countless time and has never failed even ONCE.

>You would really fight against a utopia just on the basis of there being a lack of struggle? What is the end game of your political beliefs? If that's your goal i guess you should force your people into poverty and endless war, sounds like a great system and you aren't autistic at all.


Of course. Because you misunderstand what fundamentally makes humans happy. Humans dont just want a good life. The problem with marxists and liberals is that they dont understand this. To them if you give people an easy life - easy job, easy education, birth control, good wages, hygiene, short working hours and all the good commodities they will be happy. But people dont just want these things, they ultimately want self sacrifice, struggle, and even (to an extent) suffering.

In a society where all time is leisure time, there's simply nothing to do. It's all pointless. All the great battles have been won, all the great decisions have already been made. Now it's just mindlessly spending time with friends or some kind of work (family of course is abolished in such a marxist utopia)..

Paradoxically, the more prosperous and luxurious a society is, the more decadent it is. And because of good virtue, a society becomes rich, and because of it's richness and luxury, it grows weak and decadent, and so it collapses and something replaces it.

So of course i dont perpetual warfare and poverty. You have to balance between wealth and virtue.

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Perhaps you are right to an extent, if you haven't already you should look into jean jacques rousseau, your ways of thinking have a lot in common, do you think perhaps that the northern Europeans of the past had this figured out and that sentiment may be the cause of them falling behind the southern Europeans in terms of civilization building. Aristotle seems to have believed they were men of great spirits but lacking in intelligence but iq seems to debunk it so I'm curious why you believe they fell behind civilization wise relative to the southern europeans. Sorry that this is semi off topic, but I can't really debunk that with progression comes problems mentally.

In none of its incarnations could it's ideology reconcile the supply of scarce resources with the public demand for goods and services. Needs and wants could never be met. The failure of its economic ideology eventually, or very suddenly, diminished the political and social institutions of it's host nation.

It does it better than capitalism, though, which is inherently wasteful.

Here's something

In the Medieval monasteries, labour, as required by Saint Benedict’s Rule, was regulated somewhat as in an industrial penitentiary, and the monks had to give all the fruits of their labour to the monastery. Sometimes, the Medieval monasteries were used as prisons for deposed kings, criminals, and clergy convicted of crime.

The remarkable growth of monasticism brought great wealth and political power, which were used in large measure to strengthen the Church. Kings and nobles made large grants of lands, especially Charlemagne and Louis the Pious. Besides, many monks brought their possessions as gifts to the monastery, or, in same cases, powerful abbots took lands by force. Monasticism thus gradually became secularized and also feudalized.

The Medieval monasteries did not cease to prosper, and by the 10th century, they acquired a power and prosperity they never had before.

But this prosperity gave rise to abuses. The high positions were taken by members of the laity, the worldly “Spirit of the Century” invading the monastic life. The observance of rules gradually declined. In order to stop the decline, those faithful to the spirit of the church initiated the great church reform movement of the 11th century. The Rule of Saint Benedict was again applied with full vigour. And at the forefront of the movement were again Medieval monasteries like Cluny.


This is copy pasted but you know the rest. This describes how the church and the medieval monastic orders became a victim of their own success. For they would practise a very harsh and strict work regime, practise many trades and crafts. This eventually lead them to accumulate alot of wealth which in turn lead to decline. Then came the reform movement. It suceeded, but only for some time. The same eventually happened again. I think this is greatly applicable to modern western society, but on a much grander and larger scale.

>Why did communism fail Sup Forums?
Because it's Jewish.

>and it seems like a wonderful system
...According to anti-White lying Jews.

>Why is it that most communist states turn into totalitarian hellholes?
Because it's Jewish.

>why does human nature make communism fail?
Because Jews aren't human and don't understand human nature.

>>Looking for serious discussion about the merits and shortcomings of communism
Its Jewish. That's all one needs to know.

>Did it?
Yes, it did. It's Jewish.

>K, let's expand this question to include socialism, why did socialism fail?
It's Jewish.

>I suggest you do some further research and reading on Capitalism ideology
Capitalism is Jewish too.

>All human beings are born inherently Communists
They can't be because Communism is Jewish. That's like saying Whites are born inherently anti-White.

Commies can't meme.

>It does it better than capitalism, though, which is inherently wasteful.
Both are Jewish, materialist systems that are inherently harmful to the White race.

Because, explain to me why I should stress out as a software engineer on the daily trying to solve problems that make me wanna pull my hair out when the government is going to take 91% of my earnings anyways. Fuck that, im not gonna work then.

No it doesn't. And while there is some waste in capitalism that waste comes at a market cost.

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>It does it better than capitalism, though
The entire world is capitalist mate, if it did better then you would expect to see at least one successful socialist society.

>Why is it that most communist states turn into totalitarian hellholes?

The more power you give to government, the more corrupt it becomes.

Communism starts off as a grand ideal, and quickly turns into a brutal dictatorship because it's human nature to abuse your power.

>have more homes without people than people without homes
>simultaneously have obesity and starvation epidemics
Wew, so efficient at distributing resources.

Imagine everybody who's employed being in the union. Nobody REALLY interested in making profit or good products as everybody is in the same position.

Because you can't tell people what they should or should not want in life. It's that simple. Personal freedom is more important to people than the freedom of society.

Well if communism is so superior why don't you actually make a working example of it?

Wrong again judeo communist, I'm not a Trump supporter.

And you still can't meme.

A steal meme, are you a nigga?

Because people are terrible.

Dogs make better communists than humans.

Communism leads to utopia, and people will get bored with even that.

Remember every shitty gf you ever had, every lazy coworker, every bully who took food off your plate, and every fat asshole at the dmv who is paid to do nothing all day...these are the people who will populate your socialist state at great expense to you.

Imperialism

>post Mao China

While the USSR did expend a lot of resources on the nations it imperialized I don't think that was the primary reason for its downfall.

if i had to pick something specific, it's insistent on violent social upheaval. so ultimately it's implemented coming off the back of a civil war with the most ruthless and violent coming out on top.

ahh also set prices on bread caused a market collapse even the soviets had to undo that

finally i think it was written in some very specific cultural circumstances where class used to be much more distinct and poverty was worse. it's actually dated as an ideology

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There were of course internal factors

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika

she should start going to the gym. I see much potential in her

Funnily enough Walmart has never forced me to buy their products.

>darn these big companies who oppress me with their cheap prices and voluntary offers

I was referring to treatment of workers
youtube.com/watch?v=yF8jUDzz5bE

>darn these big companies who oppress me with their job offers

Funnily enough Walmart has never forced me to work for them either.

Because "True Communism" as described by Marx lives off a complete fantasy that once there is no class everyone will join hands and dance around a campfire

is this a comic? worth reading?

this is basically a 'muh feels' argument because if you're being treated like shit you can monkey branch into other jobs unless you live in a hellhole like china. it wouldn't happen here and you can enforce people to be nice to you anyway. there's always worker's rights laws

I was referring to the lower class people who have nowhere else to work

It's all from a Korean artist called Dutchko. Funnily enough he actually got arrested by the Korean morality police for making these, but he's out and making more now. You can find him on Pixiv.

because its based around thievery. plain and simple.

Capitalism is co-operation for mutual benefit.
communism is forced "co-operation" that results in untold suffering.

Words mean things dumbass

Oh, like in China? Yeah, the situation sucks, but they're choosing to work for Walmart because it's the best opportunity they have. If Walmart wasn't there they just wouldn't work at all and would starve. It's not their fault that the Chinese government has driven away so much competition with its overregulation.

can't*

here's my actually complaints btw

Deng ruined China

youtube.com/watch?v=Rh-4gsDjAKg

yeah i recognized that it is korean

but no thanks I am not interested in what looks like disgusting het rape shit

No argument here. What China needs is free market capitalism, not the regulated authoritarian state capitalism it has right now.

Marxism is a ploy to try and convince people to willingly destroy their own nations for a Jewish world order.
Nearly every early communist leader was Jewish and were trying to trick the goyim to destroy their nations.

>Overthrow the bourgeois
Manifesto was written in 1848 when every Western nation was still in the hands of whites. Gives people the illusion of the workers taking power but really was just creating a vaccum for the jews.
>Athiesm
Good goy, forsake your religion and traditions for degenerate materialism.
>Complete state economy and abolition of property
Good goy, destroy the economy of the goyim and let us do that for you instead
>Anti-imperialism
Bad goy, only the chosen ones have the right to subjugate foreign races
>World revolution
Free all the world from capitalism and create a (((New World Order)))

then how come they have larger economic growth than the "free market europe"

Come on now, he doesn't JUST draw rape.

your mom is jewish

Cuba failing? You mean the country with the best living conditions in central america? Why don't you use Haiti or Panama for examples of capitalism? North Korea? It was razed to the ground by the US in the 50's and rebuilt in a short period of time. A US general even commented that he didn't see a single structure left standing. Sure since then they cease to be Marxists and declared Juche and installed an imperial cult for whatever reason but there are various other causes that I won't get into. Socialism worked in the USSR, they were a semi-feudal state in 1917, industrialized and were destroyed and rebuilt again after WWII with a GDP growing faster than that of the USA. Then it all collapsed with the revisionist reforms and high military spending.

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They've been gradually deregulating their economy, which has done wonders for their economic growth.