Fucking magical girls

>Man I fucking love magical girl anime it's so great
>Madoka is so dark and unique. It was the first magical girl anime to explore such dark themes.
>Kill la Kill is a magical girl anime. The main character transforms!
>Cutie Honey is the first magical girl series.
>Magical girl series are feminist!
>It's amazing how series like Yuki Yuna and Symphogear are aimed towards young girls, our cartoons should do that too.

Holy fucking shit, please just kill me now. Do people really think this shit? How can they say they love something when they don't even bother to read up on the history behind it, let alone watch it. Do they think this kind of shit just sprung up from the aether in the last decade?

I am willing to entertain the idea that Kill la Kill is a magical girl anime. More magical girl than Utena.

The nice thing about Madoka is that it takes the typical magical girl stuff and gives them dark implications. Most other dark magical girl anime only are dark themselves, they don't make other magical girl anime dark too.

to be honest I don't know a lot about magical girl so I may be one of those people you are talking about.

>It's amazing how series like Yuki Yuna and Symphogear are aimed towards young girls, our cartoons should do that too.

Literally no one thinks this.

Fuck off with this meta garbage. Who cares what idiots think?

Why did you bump this shitty thread dude?

>How can they say they love something when they don't even bother to read up on the history behind it
You sound like a very fun fellow.

>Utena is all about being a strong woman and smashing the patriarchy
>I don't really like any mecha shows except for Code Geass and Eva, but those aren't REALLY mecha shows, they're about the characters
>I love retro anime, Outlaw Star, Patlabor, Ranma, I've seen it all
>Anime has always been moeshit dude, check out these screenshots from a 80's children's show

etc
Western anime fanbase is filled with retards from top to bottom, you just need to learn to ignore it

Kill la Kill is not a magical girl anime.

My only regret is that when the creators said this, it wasn't recorded so I can't cite it on Wikipedia and edit the page so it doesn't say it is.

"moeshit" is a meaningless shitposting term so I don't know what you mean by that even ironically, but moe has existed in anime since forever. CGDCT not so much.

>Magical girl series are feminist!
It really depends on what you consider feminist. Sally is pretty tradition breaking if you ask me.

It doesn't help that a lot of the good stuff isn't translated. Currently, I'm working trough the toei majokko series, and while I can understand Japanese well enough to enjoy it, it's not enough to translate it.

I also have this hunch that at least the most popular ones like Megu and Sally are going to be picked by a company now that there is some interest in streaming old stuff.

Also, best girl.

>This archetype is currently being called "Homu-clone" despite already being saturated to the point of parody by 2001

YEAH! I like magical girls too!

The creators don't get to decide what genre it is. We have to determine its genre based on what the anime actually is.

I am not saying Kill la Kill is a magical girl anime, but it has some characteristics that makes it worth considering, if nothing else, to come up with a good definition for the genre.

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>Character is named Mami
>Is a slut
A tradition kept in the genre ever since the days of Sally.

Damn you're getting awful upset about a bunch of opinions few, if any people actually have.

This thread is shit but I'd just like to put out there that I'm watching Heartcatch and Tsubomi is really cute.

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That was the point, people draw false parallels between incidental moe spawning from children's shows like Minky Momo or side characters in old scifi, and things deliberately manufactured to appeal to otaku fetishization of cute with no scope beyond that (cgdct)

>My only regret is that when the creators said this, it wasn't recorded
So how do you know they said it?

I don't know if I agree. This isn't even within the scope of "death of the author."

If they make a show based on the tropes of magical girls, it's probably a magical girl show.

If they make a show based on tokusatsu, which they did, it's probably not a magical girl show.

I was there.

Genre isn't black and white but it's obviously got similarities, not something to huff and puff over.

Or maybe your just retarded?

Of course, and I realize this line of logic is basically inherently flawed, but it seems like the only basis that it's a "magical girl" show is from people who have no idea what they're talking about, like western reviews.

Oh yeah, Cutie Honey and Megu-chan's fan service are merely "incidental", sure.

The problem with cgdct is that it's boring if compared to classic shows. With no plot beyond the girls chilling.

Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne was pretty dark.
Sailor Moon manga was pretty dark
Wedding Peach sometimes too

I would say Nanoha was more revolutionary than Madoka

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>>Magical girl series are feminist!
They literally are.

In how they actually affected the industry, I'd agree.

Which magical princess gets your holy up?

I definitely think that we should show Symphogear to young girls world wide.

That's probably fair, but it begs the question as to why you even give a shit about western anime criticism in the first place?

There are lots of great cute girls shows, don't be a weenie.

I don't, it's seeing it on Wikipedia using that logic (the sources for its genre being western reviews) that's annoying.

Witches are the best magical girls

Incidental might have not been the right word, but that's the point I made, that it's just a certain kind of fanservice with all other elements stripped out.

Plus (the original) Cutie Honey is shounen anyway, or at least some kind of cobbled together mix of demographics, not really in the same vein as the majokka stuff.

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what archetype?

Purple haired lesbian.

Megu-Chan had like, 7 of its episodes banned in the European adaptation because they were too dark.

Sally also had a sudden burst of sad stories between episode 80 and 89 (Probably because that is when the cancellation of the series was confirmed so they didn't have to worry anymore) with two stories involving death and one "magic can't heal" that is the harshest them all (despite the fact it also features Sally at her most badass mood)

Anyway, Madoka's thing was always execution, furthermore, it was fully dedicated to delivering a sad experience. The thing is, Urobuchi wasn't familiar enough with what is a magical girl (he literally never watched any before meguka) so he couldn't possibly do the "deconstruction" that some people say Madokers did.

Thing is this 'deliberate manufacture' of moe you speak of can be said about old anime sci-fi characters as well. A lot of people argue this, but CGDCT like Bakuon and mountain lolis isn't a byproduct of anything but the mangaka/author's interest in something and them being otaku themselves. In this case bikes/futa or mountain climbing while also liking cute girls. Then you have GA and it's art. Obviously there's shit like Sketchbook which treads more to SoL and less on the otaku hobbyist side but saying it's manufactured is incorrect.

It's really bizarre that Go Nagai did Tickle of all things, I would never have realized it by myself.

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I'm not sure if that makes someone a hipster, a snob, or both.

Either way, it's obnoxious.

You're just experiencing what mecha fans have experienced since Evangelion, and again during Gurren Lagann.

If someone called thought western movies started at Clint Eastwood it's only natural someone would call them out.

Why the fuck shouldn't people do the same to anime genres?

Fortunately it doesn't make Eva, Gurren Lagann, or Cutie Honey bad.

Nobody was implying that

I'd agree if you're making anime or trying to provide profound cultural or analytical commentary on the subject, but this isn't an all-or-nothing thing. I'm not sure it's fair to expect everyone who consumes anime to be well-versed in the entire history of whatever sub-type they're watching.

Plus, the best commentary on that kind of thing should be able to provide "Ohhh" moments to casual viewers, rather than just calling them out for being uneducated plebes. In fact, as someone who might know a thing or two about it, one could argue that it's your responsibility to do so, preferably without being a condescending shit about it.

Trust me, there are people who do.

>fucking magical girls
Those are the best kind!

People who judge something based on who like it and what they say rather than the thing itself are just stupid though.

Yes.

ANN just did, saying that stuff like YuYuYu and Madoka sells because it empowers girls

>all that Akihabara marketing for meguca
>the otaku staff - Urobuchi, Ume etc.
>the VN and other multimedia releases for YuYuYu and the seinen demographic manga
Retarded delusion.

>all markets are the same
>the western market doesn't matter
Retarded delusion.

Yes, it doesn't.

>western market
It's irrelevant and minuscule and therefore not the reason it sells at all. I never stated it was the only market.

Saying KLK isn't A magical girl show is like saying EVA isn't a super robot show because it doesn't have any robots. You're not technically wrong, but you're pretty full of it.

Whaaat? I don't follow.

Eva is a mecha show because it has mecha.

KLK is not a magical girl show because it does not have magical girls.

Reasons why KLK is a magical girl show, go

I'd say Eva is more real than super

Look, when you hear someone start talking about the history of magical girl anime and it's themes and shit, why the fuck would you not expect them to know what they're talking about? Doing shit like saying 'I'm making something based off of the magical girl genre because it's so progressive about sexuality and aimed towards little girls!' and they list two fucking series that are Meguca because muh darkness that was never done before, Sailor Moon because muh childhood, and two yuri fanservice shits for old men because that's what they really want.

Fuckers acting like Madoka invented evil mascots and fighting, like Sailor Moon was the first magical girl anime ever, and everything is about muh lewd + muh plot twists.

Basically people like this user right here.

The only time the west mattered for Magical girls was when bewitched became popular.

Speaking of the west, Star is kinda fun

I know people that would have a heart attack if they found out that magical girl anime was built off of Bewitched.

Didn't Sailor Moon combine magical girl and tokusatsu? Isn't the reason why people are confused, and equate tokusatsu tropes with magical girl tropes, because the only older magical girl anime they've seen (heard of) is Sailor Moon?

Kill la Kill is just trigger version of Project A-ko

Sailor Moon combined magical girls with sentai, is my understanding.

>dumbfucks try to argue

But what makes Sailor Moon a magical girl show and not toku? The majority of magical girl shows after Sailor Moon are far more toku than anything, does that make them not magical girls? I think that's silly.

Symphogear was the Card Captor Sakura of the Nanoha genre.

>Tokusatsu (特撮) is a Japanese term that applies to any live-action film or television drama that features considerable use of special effects

That doesn't make it not a magical girl show, and it doesn't make other shows that share those trappings either magical girl shows or not either.

Madoka was the Ren & Stimpy of the magic girl genre.

This is what I'm talking about. There is no magic in Symphogear, there is only machines. Functionally they act like magic, but they're not. So then you have Nanoha where they call it magic, but it's the same as Symphogear, they're just high tech gizmos. In Madoka, they outright just say "well to lower life forms like you, super science just looks like magic, so we call it magic." Are any of these shows magical girl shows? They're so far removed from your Fancy Lala and your Creamy Mami, they're just schoolgirls with super powered alter-egos fighting space crime.

That's like saying Dragon Ball or Fate/Whateverthefuck a magical boy genre. Just because the MC happens to be female who transforms doesn't mean she's immediately in a magical girls show.

This is kind of like people who say EVA isn't mecha because they're based on biological forms; it doesn't matter.

It borrows, and the whole "pretty soldier" idea feels distinctly like sentai (much more than toku in general), so the influence is undeniable. I think as time went on, fighting mahou shoujo shows gradually drew more and more from it, particularly whenever they were trying to appeal to more boys, who grew up on it.

A more shameless and direct (early) combination would be something like Yes! Precure 5, which doesn't really seem to have boys in mind but definitely plays out the "sentai with magical girls" idea. Not too surprising, since it's Toei too.

The last magical girl anime I can remember that didn't involve sentai fighting was Kamichu.

I feel like the genre basically became Sailor Moon ripoffs.

Sailor Moon is the second greatest anime of all time.

>But what makes Sailor Moon a magical girl show and not toku?
The fact that its not live action done with practical special effects.

The "magical girl is toku" link is mostly due to the fact that magical girl shows are similar to toku show when it comes to the general outline of a typical show from either of the two, the main difference is the medium(Live action and anime) and the audience they are targetting.
Toku tend to be catered to little boys(At least in the past), and were about being heroes and whatnot, fighting off monsters of the week, maybe some friendship and romance along the way.
Magical girl shows aim for the little girls, and were about being heroes and whatnot, fighting off monster of the week, and maybe some friendship and romance along the way.

See the pattern yet?

But nowadays, the two have changed or widened their target audience, there are housewives watching toku for the cute guys(Kamen Rider, for instance), there are guys watching magical girl anime for the cute girls(Or alternatively, the battles).

Fuck you, Hibiki is a miracle of the universe so great that she can only be explained as magic.

Speaking of magical boys, wasn't Toei supposed to be doing some sort of OVA or promo video about this?

2hu version of symphogears need not apply.

Doesn't Pleiades count?

Yes it does.

>Kill la Kill
>Ryuko is a girl
>transforms with a transformation sequence in a superpowered suit
So, why is she not a magical girl?

Pleiades was really odd
>Outright says it's all science from the start
>Follows classical magical girl stuff closer than a lot of recent witch girl series

Because girls that transform aren't inherently magical girls.

We just had Jewelpet: Magical Change.

I wouldn't call Nanoha revolutionary when it was pretty similar to Akihabara Dennou-gumi.

Does LilPri count? I remember that TMS was supposed to do a 3rd (2nd was a all CG show from Studio 4C) series for Fox staring Zooey Deschanel in the English version (along side Tress MacNeille, Tara Strong and Cree Summer) but they canceled it (most likely due to TMS' cost).

Aliens and machinery are not magic, no matter how magical they may appear.

Fuck off, Famicom.

Fuck, does Cocotama count? The only real difference between it and, say, something like Pastel Yumi is that the girls need to tell their cute mascot friends to use their magic instead of using the magic directly itself.

I was not the one who brought that news years ago, that was TMSGuy (HamSandMan77 over at TV Tropes).

Just answer me "Does LilPri count?"

No as the main human character lack magic skills.

And the gods won't end up like Kratos.

Then are Symphogear not magical girls?

>does Cocotama count?
Of course not, Kokoro isn't the one using the magic, she's just doing contracts with magical gods while those gods are the ones doing the magic.

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>nowadays

That's been going on since the 80s at the very least.

There is basically a Super Robot / Real Robot kind of divide in magical girl shows, and that is the seinen (Symphogear, Madoka, Nanoha) and shoujo (Pretear, Shugo Chara, Doremi), which are very different in terms of everything except some shared imagery.