I feel like I could spend a lifetime researching the theological controversies separating Western Catholics from the Eastern Orthodox. But I do not have a lifetime to find the truth. I need to make a choice now about where I will pledge my fidelity.
Can someone recommend books to read on this subject?
To get things going, consider this: what is the basis for believing that the Bishop of Rome has special privileges which put him above other bishops and even the Ecumenical Councils themselves?
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It seems the East kept it closer to a religion, embracing more of the mystical elements, and the West turned it into a political/power structure.
Baptist
The Russian Church and the Papacy was what did it for me
Also, as much as I hatred the idea of pope at the time, I eventually realized that a centralized authority able to bind and loose is both biblical and practically necessary.
>Which version of Christianity is closest to the truth
None, there is no truth in superstition.
Stop acting like a child or a woman.
maybe catholicism, i'm not sure though
SPBP
Baptist Church is the way to go. The Pope is a fraud.
>"Which version of christcuckery is closer to the truth?"
The one that you don't follow, sweety.
Orthodoxy, Catholicism has too many pagan elements influenced by Rome, but both aren't my choice. Just read the bible, be a bible believer which all major denominations aren't
A question about Catholicism should have a Catholic in the picture, and this one doesn't. The man on the left holds to more Catholic dogma than the one on the right, so says dogma doesn't matter.
Orthodoxism.Any other answer is false from all points of view.
The words of Jesus were corrupted by man the second they were put to paper.
Believing that a mechanical process is what caused the universe to exist and human beings to come into existence is the most superstitious and unreasonable belief a person could possibly hold.
gay
i'd say Ethiopian Gnosticism
ecumenical, autonomous community churches that don't bicker about what's necessary for salvation but instead help each other and their community
You're retarded if you think it's not a power structure in East as well. They just can't compete with the West because they cucked themselves into decentralization.
This. Don't follow a bunch of fruitcakes wearing dresses.
orthodoxy puts more emphasis on emotions (feeling the existence of god) whereas catholicism, influenced by Greek philosophy, puts the emphasis on rationality (accepting the existence of god as a matter of reason).
...
>To get things going, consider this: what is the basis for believing that the Bishop of Rome has special privileges which put him above other bishops and even the Ecumenical Councils themselves?
Theologically speaking, because he is considered to be the successor of the Apostle Peter. Politically speaking because Rome was the political center of the west and when the Karologinians revived the empire, they accepted the spiritual authority of the Roman bishop. Charlemagne accepted the crown from his hand in 800.
Orthodoxy. Plus we have the best memes.
I would disagree with the use of the term "emotions," as you emotions should never be the be-all, end-all of your relationship with God, but this is a mostly true characterization.
Also I'm a total Aristotlefag and I'm Orthodox in my beliefs as far as I know, so don't think you can't have Greek philosophy with Orthodoxy.
Become a Mennonite, we are good people. Blood and soil
You get taught at a young age that Jesus was Catholic and that the Catholic church was the church Jesus started. The problem is that this answer comes from Christians. If you ask a Muslim, they'll tell you Jesus was Muslim. A Mormon will tell you he was a Mormon.
To know which was the church Jesus founded, you only need to look in the Bible. Back then religions were named after where they originated from; Judaism was the religion of the kingdom of Judah.
The Hebrew word for "Christian" is Notzri, and has been for nearly 2000 years. Translated to English, it's Nazarene, where Jesus came from. Jesus and his followers were called Nazarenes.
This is the truth. The one Jesus preached.
Jesus spoke Aramaic and God in that language is Ellah which is pronounced as Allah.
There is all you need to know about which religion today follows the one true God who is independent of having any sons/daughters/wives or helpers of any kind.
So they both call their gods, "God"? Doesn't mean they're both the same god. The God of Moses gave his name on Mt. Sinai, "YHWH". Muslims actively deny that YHWH is their God and instead say that Allah is their god's name.
>If you just read the Bible you'll see that I'm right!
t. Literally every Christian denomination
We are usually called Christians (Acts 11:26, notice no repudiation of the term), your assertion that a religion must be named after a region or nation is completely unfounded. Also are you from that weirdo nontrinitarian sect?
In Acts 2 the apostles are given the power to speak other languages, essentially sanctifying all languages for use in worshiping God. It'd be quite strange if all their speech translated except for the word "God." Also the Aramaic name for Jesus is Yeshua (or some such), not Isa. Besides that, I'm not educated in Aramaic but I strongly suspect you're probably speaking out of your ass aboutthe Aramaic word for God being Ellah (or Allah). As I recall it's just El. And actually God does have a Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Because Aramaic is linguistically close to modern Arabic does not mean that Islam is the true religion. The Allah of Christianity is very different to the Allah of Mohammed. Very different.
If I said I have a dog and you said you have a dog, that does not mean that we have both the same dog.
Not so fast, Pantelija.
> Vucic selling you out to EU like Djindjic never ever dreamed of doing
> half Cro full dyke Prime Minister, what the fuck
> mudslimem faggot terrorist scum prime minister for Kosovo
> Kosovo soon to be sold off
> Bonus - who is Kacavenda Da High Priest.
What does that have to do with Christian Orthodoxy my Croat bro.
>Orthodoxy
>Serbia
Oh I don't know.
He thinks church drama proves that Orthodoxy's false or something??? Not only should those who live in glass houses not throw stones, but also we need only look at the New Testament to see that the Church was always a mess. Thank God for God's mercy.
Both, but it depends
Orthodoxy is true under the service to the Roman Emperor, while Catholicism is true outside the realm of the Empire. Since there has been no Roman Empire for quite some time, Orthodoxy has become heretical. If a new roman Empire is reborn the Pope will have to step aside and if he doesn't then Orthodoxy returns as the truth. All other sects are heretical. The Emperor/Pope thing is a necessity for Apostolic Succession. Oriental Orthodoxy is heretical as their nations like Armenia, Egypt and Ethiopia are not 'universal' churches bound together by one tradition.
it's more complicated actually. The semitic root of the word is EL. El was the main god of the semitic pantheon (pretty much like Zeus in the Hellenic). His name became the generic term of God/gods. The monothestic israeltribe fused a lot of gods into their one god, using the plural of EL - elohim - as another term for their god Jahwe. So it became a synonym and is, as you rightly said, also the root of the Arabic word Allah. Though in the bible elohim - the plural form - is also used in the generic sense "gods". So EL is mostly a reference to "the one God", though it may also refer to other Gods
Fake and gay, the Roman emperor is by no means necessary to Christianity, else the first 300 years of Christianity are also heretical.
>but you still had a pope then
A bishop of Rome, yes, not an infallible supreme pope with universal regular jurisdiction in all churches across the world.
old or new test?
Shut up kike faggot. Go perform street-slaughtering neck-slicing of chickens with your fanatical bipedal rat fanatics or go suck dicks of circumcised newborns.
I would not call Vucic a devout Orthodox Christian. Many Serbs also hate Vucic and the dirty dyke. Many Orthodox Priests that I know here in Australia are very Conservative, Nationalistic and Anti-semitic
>monothestic israeltribe
Good grief what I would do just to punch you in your big nose right now and blow that bald-spot mask that you wear on the back of your head...
>I would not call Vucic a devout Orthodox Christian. Many Serbs also hate Vucic and the dirty dyke. Many Orthodox Priests that I know here in Australia are very Conservative, Nationalistic and Anti-semitic
Many hate? OK cool. They hate yet they don't speak out, just go along with it as they watch reality tv, literally bow down to dead criminal degenerates and their whore wives and live for saturday night arabo-turkish-eurodance trash music cokeouts.
Muh patriarchy muh Obilic muh Njegos.
4th century frauds of Constantine.
The red pill that Sup Forums cannot swallow.
Reformed Baptist
Roman Catolicism, of course. I must be noted, though, that the Novus Ordo Church is not the Catholic Church, that every "pope" since John XXIII are antipopes, and that there's no salvation outside the Church.
I also grew up hearing evangelical lies, my man. Unfortunately I also got my degree in history of religion, and learning about theology and history (not Prottie memes) drove me into the arms of the apostolics.
you're funny.... scheiß dreckiger kroate.
Sedevacantism is just a step-stone religion to burning out and losing faith
You admit that you have no clue what it's about yet still feel an urge to "pledge your fidelity" to it?
How fucking dumb are you.
This.
Conservative Protestantism is the only way to go.
No authority except from the Man Himself.
Both act as lungs that breathe in the Holy Spirit of Christ
On the contrary, I have never been so faithful since I accepted it and left false traditionalism, I just couldn't bare the contradictions any longer. Read into it, I hope you leave your conciliar counterfeit church of the end-times.
Serbia has become a degenerate shit hole, there is no denying that. The reason for Serbs becoming more degenerate is because more Serbs are becoming less devout Orthodox Christians, there degenerate because of their lack in faith. 84 percent of Serbian citizens declare themselves Orthodox Christians but they are not devout most of them dont even attend Church. Most Devout Orthodox Christians that I do know are Conservative and Nationalistic .
Many Serbs dont speak out against Vucic because they believe that they wont make a difference.
Orthodoxy and Catholicism are both the continuation of Babylon the mystery religion They're both the great whores
Atheism. Now fuck off to already, christfags.
And isnt Croatia in a same degenerate and corrupt situation?
Just read the Bible yourself and stop giving money to closeted Jews.
Mormonism
youtu.be
I mean, you obviously have no choice to say such NOW, while you're in the throes of it. Well, while I hope you come Orthodox, for the moment I just hope you return to Chaos Frank's spot, as it's a much less precarious spot for you psyche.
Erm no
Christianity, even when it was 'bad', was ultimately created out of Rome. The Emperor as an antagonist in early christianity has the same effect, in fact the Emperor and the Pope ARE antagonists. The Church is not a cool kids club, it's a containment of evil.
No no, it's actually way shittier. It's a mechanical process (the big bang) that made a mechanical process (the universe)
This is like you TRIED to come up with the most idiotic ecclesiology possible
Acts 11:26 says they only started getting called Christians in Antioch.
Acts 24:5 mentions Nazarenes being a sect of Judaism.
I was raised Catholic, and reading the bible with an open mind has shown me that the Catholic church violates too many of YHWH's commandments, such as having statues of Jesus at church and praying to Mary. Of course, no denomination is perfect and even the Nazarene sect split up and went different ways.
Honestly considering all Orthodox, Catholics and MOST Protestants embrace usury, your best bet is probably finding a rare conservative protestant church that actually condemns it, they're probably the only ones left on Earth actually condemning usury at all, and I mean REAL usury as in loans with any interest, not loans with "unfair" interest whatever that means.
Usury is a sin, charging interest is a sin, many are going to be condemned for it because our entire society is built upon usury. If you find a church that forbids usury of any kind you're in the right place, but good luck with that, it's difficult to find one because Jews call anyone condemning usury an anti-Semite.
>The Gospel which has just been read touching the Lord Christ, who walked on the waters of the sea; and the Apostle Peter, who as he was walking, tottered through fear, and sinking in distrust, rose again by confession, gives us to understand that the sea is the present world, and the Apostle Peter the type of the One Church. For Peter in the order of Apostles first, and in the love of Christ most forward, answers oftentimes alone for all the rest. Again, when the Lord Jesus Christ asked, whom men said that He was, and when the disciples gave the various opinions of men, and the Lord asked again and said, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to Him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but My Father which is in heaven. Then He added, and I say unto you. As if He had said, Because you have said unto Me, 'You are the Christ the Son of the living God;' I also say unto you, 'You are Peter.' For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and that in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Therefore, he says, You are Peter; and upon this Rock which you have confessed, upon this Rock which you have acknowledged, saying, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church; that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church. I will build you upon Myself, not Myself upon you.
t. St. Augustine (Sermon 26 on New Testament)
comparatively... orthodox
What I'm about to say really, honestly, has nothing to do with the 90s war. I have to say it, although you or anyone won't believe me.
But I don't agree on that statement - I think Serbia was always cowardly. They're obsessed with myths and larp in a very strange way. Very lethargic people. I promise you 10 years from now Vucic (he will still be the president) will convince them to go "protestant" or "atheist" and they'll go along with it.
That's just how they are. Shallow people. No offense. It's just my observation.
If Serbia is degenerate 100%, I would asses we are hovering between 70 and 80%. Definitely not touching Serbia levels.
Good grief I almost puked my lunch getting a fucking (You) from a anthropomorphic rat. This is worse than seeing goatse for the first time back in 1999. Refute the Kike (you)!
>I feel like I could spend a lifetime researching the theological controversies separating Western Catholics from the Eastern Orthodox. But I do not have a lifetime to find the truth.
Jesus made it easy for you: "You are Peter [= Petros (in Greek), i.e., rock], and upon this rock I will build my Church."
Now, both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox advance various logic-chopping arguments to avoid the force of this claim, which are addressed and disposed of here:
>catholic.com
And here:
>catholic.com
For a more detailed but concise explanation of the historical and scriptural basis of Catholic claims, see:
>catholic.com
Protestantism. The rest is vulgar heresy.
The Christianity where you accept it for a moment, consider that God is hanging on a wooden cross... understand he died and continue your life as you would otherwise without ever caring about religion because God is literally dead.
>[Followers of Jesus] start getting called Christians
>[Followers of Jesus] embrace of the term wholesale
>b-but it wasn't their exclusive title back then so we have to use an older title that wasn't exclusive either!
Also, are you non-trinitarian?
Stop the memes. When will Latins understand that Matthew 16:18 is not the argument-ending nuke they want it to be? I may as well quote John 15:26 back at you, for all the quality of this argument. I've read your tracts when I was discerning and many times since and believe me that if you're counting on Catholic Answers to be your champion then you ain't got a prayer.
I disagree with you view that Serbs are cowardly and shallow people but i guess thats your view and I cannot change that.
Have a nice day Croat bro, nice talking to you.
>what im about to say has nothing to do with the 90s war
I know Sup Forums likes to fetishize your country, but by god do I hate your butthurt smug attitudes, its always muh serbia this muh serbia that.
catholicism is best goy tier so anything but that.
>Can someone recommend books to read on this subject?
THE CATHOLIC CONTROVERSY by St. Francis de Sales is a very readable but quite scholarly compilation of pamphlets and essays that the great Catholic saint wrote as a young priest when he volunteered to re-evangelize the Calvinists of the Chablais.
>Finding his preaching forcefully rejected, St. Francis de Sales shrewdly switched tactics and began a written apologetics campaign, posting pamphlets on walls and slipping them beneath doors under the cover of night.
>His defense of the Faith was so clear and thorough that at the end of four years nearly the entire population of 72,000 had returned to the Catholic Faith!
The book is quite good, and goes into very deep detail on the issues. But still quite readable, especially if you're interested in the issues, which I gather you are.
amazon.com
The book is old and the translation is in the public domain. I find it rather hard to read entire books online, but it is available online in a non-pirated version (this may be the same translation that's republished in the TAN edition on Amazon, I'm not sure). And you can also download the pdf and print out individual sections and chapters, if you prefer:
>archive.org
>Jesus made it easy for you: "You are Peter [= Petros (in Greek), i.e., rock], and upon this rock I will build my Church."
False, see
Orthodoxy is the original not Catholicism.
Catholicism worships idols, called Saints. They are literally devil worshipers.
>cue copy-pasted wall of out-of-context quotes from fathers he's never read from good ol' Jimmy Akin's classic "The Fathers Know Best."
>When you're unwilling to autistically respond to and refute every single one of my 41 quotes I shall then claim victory!
I also read the Fathers Know Best. Unfortunately for Jimmy, I also actually read the Fathers
No. I don't have nothing against Serbs that are aware of whats up and speak up on it. There are Serbs who understand the real threat - mudslime scum.
In some parallel universe, if we could form a coalition, join up and literally eradicate every single form of bosnian, shiptar and mudslime life form in these parts I would sign up for it in a nanosecond.
But Serbs are cowardly - my opinion - because they are afraid of their Master Vucic. And Master Vucic wants them to bend over to Kosovo shiptar scum.
You can talk that potato shit about me being "smug" who gives a fuck - Serbian president APPROVED of new Kosovo prime minister who is a CERTIFIED war criminal who DECAPITATED serbian boy and threw his head in a nearby garden - and said, on tape - here's your meat and salad. That guy, 20 years later, is cosigned by Serbian president.
And Serb "intellectuals" are fretting over muh ustasa muh throat-cutting blood vampire satanic Croats.
Pathetic. Bowing to criminals (next to heavenly god, Serbians have the god named Arkan and his whore wife, both notorious criminals who extorted their own people, but in Serbia those two figures are literal sacred cows of their society).
Sorry for using pure facts.
>When will Latins understand that Matthew 16:18 is not the argument-ending nuke they want it to be?
Except that it is. Sorry, pal.
Disputes about the meaning of words never end. There needs to be a stopping point -- an authority who can assert the truth.
Jesus established such authority in the Church of which he made Peter the head -- and not just for a generation, but for as long as the Church exists, in order that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Also I feel it needs be said that even if Peter is the rock in Matthew 16:18 (which I also believe desu), this poses nooo threat to my Orthodoxy
Lutheran and Calvinist sects
They should change his name to 'The Rock' in English translations of the Bible.
I wish there was a way to type out an eyeroll without sounding cringe.
Neither
biblehub.com
They all use 'you' and not thou so it means he was talking to a general you meaning everyone. So basically everyone is the rock upon which Jesus built his Church.
What do you think of Aquinas?
Nah, the Greek is σύ, which is singular
Just to be clear for anyone who didn't read my original post: is from a sermon by St. Augustine (the favorite Church Father of the Roman Catholics) where he explains that Jesus is saying that Jesus himself is the Rock on which he will build his Church.
>False
I'm not sure what you are questioning with this quote. Augustine is saying Peter got his authority from the first and foremost Rock, Jesus, and not the other way around as he says one sentence earlier: “as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ.”
Augustine: "I will build you upon Myself, not Myself upon you."
What Catholic would dispute this? We don't claim that Peter, or the office of Peter, is some sort of quasi-divinity. The office and its continuing authority are derived from Christ's authority and Christ's power, absent which the Catholic Church would have collapsed hundreds if not a thousand years ago.
Instead of trying to fix the mess that is Merkator and the incoming collapse the ((HDZ)) is focusing on changing street names that have Tito or some shit from the 70's because it hurts muhh feelings.
Dude face it your country is a vassal state of the EU.
HERCEGOVINA Master Race jebem ti Zagorsku mater!! D:D::D:D:DDD!!!
Read the new test, then read the old test, then read the old one again and then the new one right after it, then go for C.S Lewis and whatever Christian literature you desire
That's how it's done
>be croatia
>defend bosniak mudslimes
>bend over to eu like every other western whore state
>bend over to germaniggers
>bend over to western (((values)))
>be degenerate tourist trap with rising nigger population
>Be serbia
>remove kebab
>get absolutely destroyed by jews and NATO bombings
>croatia hates you
>west hates you
>serbia is forever a shithole
>decide to abandon values and vendettas to become a respectable nation just like the west wants you to
>croatia, the pot, calls the kettle black in an assblasted attempt to make them look degenerate for bending over to eu
Like pottery
People who stand up to Vucic always seem disappear somehow. Ever notice that? Not like everyone in the country is butthurt and won't do anything.
Jesus started the catholic church. Not the Catholic church. The lowercase c catholic church (universal church) is simply the church body made up of all denominations that have not fallen into heresy. Most denominational differences are over trivial matters or "adiaphora." Things that aren't central to the faith or salvation such as church leadership rules beyond those laid out in Timothy, etc. The capitalized Catholic church calls itself the universal church, however it has strayed from historical orthodox christianity to the point of being borderline heretical with the veneration/worship of saints, focus on works based salvation, elevation of a sinful fallible man to the position of Christ's vicar (voice/representative) and other issues.
Catholicism is nice for its monk orders and overall scholarly, but the whole Pope thing is comical.
Orthodoxy is split into nationalist Churches, Balkan region has as many as there are nations there, so it's kinda simplistic. Nationalism fuels it.
I kind of view him like an assburger who put the cart of Aristotelianism wayyyy in front of the horse of Christianity. Nevertheless he's pretty solid when it comes to the basics of the Faith. My own views come from the Fathers (or so I'd like to think), who while not completely inuring themselves to Aristotle's entire system (which includes many things a Christian cannot abide) made it very clear that they knew their Aristotle. In the end, as St. Gregory Palamas said, philosophy does not save, and we have to understand that while philosophy is good and can enrich our faith, faith is something which passes understanding, a gift from God deep in the heart. Whatever I can pull out of philosophy profits me nothing if I don't have that sort of living faith.
>HERCEGOVINA Master Race jebem ti Zagorsku mater!! D:D::D:D:DDD!!!
Vas bi zajedno sa bosancima, u stroj za drobljenje kamenja. Puši kurac kockoglavi trogloditu - bosanski.
LOL "rising nigger population" this is where I stopped reading hahahahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Yes they sold us out to EU, I never denied that.
See that's why I try not to debate theology as an atheist. It's like debating spiderman with The Comic Book Geek. He's gonna win.
I just don't care enough to learn ancient Greek and Hebrew, Aramaic and Latin to even begin. With religion you have to buy the farm before you've looked in the barn.
Not surprising, Orthodox usually say the Catholics and Thomism is too legalistic for their liking.
I can understand the perspective.