Was it wrong of him to manipulate kids into working their asses off to compete in a competition they didn't care about before for his own selfish reasons? He could have gone to another school where people were serious about studying music but instead he chose this one.
You can say that in the end they got better at playing and had some glory so it's okay but honestly I think a part of him enjoys being a cold hearted tyrant with a smile on his face.
>I think a part of him enjoys being a cold hearted tyrant with a smile on his face.
So?
He offered them the choice of either fucking around and working hard, they chose to work hard. There's no manipulation about it.
Fuck off with this stupid question.
It's a nasty personality trait. He's fine with making people cry and give up if it's better for the band. Those kids just wanted to have fun together.
Being brutally honest is manipulation now?
>It's a nasty personality trait.
Yeah, so?
You can't measure the wrongness of an action by the personality of the person doing it.
He literally laid out the entire situation on the table and gave them the choice to take the club in the direction they wanted. I don't see how this is hard to understand.
Even in the show Kumiko picked up on how he manipulated them into "choosing" to work hard. He didn't force them to raise their hands but he created a situation where they would feel guilty if they didn't and since this is conformist Japan they played into his hands. It's nasty and very clever.
Autist please go.
>Autist please go.
No, you fuck off.
Personality doesn't make you a criminal. Crime does.
This isn't Psycho Pass.
>pushed them to achieve their potential
>nasty and manipulative
you sound like a bit of a daisy, user
Obviously he didn't do anything illegal. I'm talking about ethics here where feelings and methods of doing things matters.
So you say the ends justifies the means. Fair enough. There were positive benefits from what he did and there were also negative ones.
>I'm talking about ethics here
And you still can't judge him for his personality.
It's the actions that count.
He can't help his personality. He was born with it. Condemning him for it is ridiculous.
>Worked their asses off
Like that time they goofed off when he wanted them to practice the basics and learn to play together. Or that time they boycotted practice. Or that time they boycotted practice again.
He's making them getting used to the reality of the workplace environment. You will eventually have a cold hearted tyrant not giving two shits about you when you get a job.
His personality effects his actions.
He made people cry and quit. He humiliated people. If the students wanted to work hard with their music they would have picked a better school known for it. If Taki wanted serious students he could have easily gone to a better school. I know from the novel he had reasons for picking that school which is why it is selfish.
With an iron fist he made them work hard. To be fair they needed some discipline but Taki was pretty harsh at times.
> personality
> born with
Well golly gee I guess we better take care of all single mothers because it was in their personality to be impulsive, short-sighted, and stupid
You can't blame them for their personality after all
All the more reason to enjoy youth because you're never going to be as happy and have as much free time. Why do you think there's so much anime about young people? Being an adult sucks for the most part over there.
>His personality effects his actions.
Sure.
And you can still only judge those actions.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
>Those kids just wanted to have fun together.
Then they should have voted for that. He gave them the choice of a fun, relaxed band experience but they chose to get serious and aim for the nationals competition.
You don't get good and advance to a national competition by joking around and having fun. So what if some kid is crying because this ended up being too hard for them? Sensei getting all teary and emotional and taking it easy on the kid would have accomplished nothing but short-term easing of the kid's pain, while also hurting the chances of making Nationals for the entire band. On the other hand, being hard on the children builds their character up more for the hardships of life and training, and actually, you know, focuses on training like they all collectively said they wanted to do.
So in your opinion personality, intentions and methods don't matter as long as the results are mostly good?
I think /r9k/ is leaking a bit.
By the way you guys can talk about anything else if you want. I just wanted to try and get a nice Hibike thread going.
See
The way he did it was very cunning which is why I think it's kind of controversial.
>Taki was pretty harsh at times.
Yeah he was, and they very clearly needed him to be harsh on them. What's the point of this thread? To call to attention the all-to-obvious fact that Taki was harsh and demanding like he needed to be so that the kids could actually achieve what they wanted to achieve? What about it?
>methods don't matter
Methods are part of your actions.
The thought behind those methods is not.
>as long as the results are mostly good?
They don't matter if the result is bad either. You'll still have done bad.
>you guys can talk about anything else if you want.
Is your thread some kind of prostitute?
This is from the interview with the script writer that covers part of Taki sensei's personality
ultimatemegax.wordpress.com
Oguro: One scene that I clearly understood that in was in episode 10 where he scolds the students for taking down the blankets that were put up across the clubroom so that the sound wouldn’t resound. Up until that point, he acted based on how he calculated how the students would respond, but he was troubled over the issues resulting from the audition and so that irritableness came out.
Hanada: That was certainly the intention we had for that scene. In the novel, the rumor that went around the students that he and Reina were old acquaintances never reached his ears and so the story continued. But wouldn’t he obviously hear about it during club activities like if someone asked him about it? I used that event from the novel in order to show a different side of Taki. After writing that, I thought I brought it together well.
tl;dr Taki sensei was infact manipulating them, but in a good way at least
Why is doing things in a cunning and intelligence fashion controversial? Only OP seems to take issue with the teacher's actions and attitudes toward the students.
> he can't help his personality
> he was born with it
No one is born with a personality, user.
You can't excuse cruel behaviour by saying it's "in their nature." It's no different than impulsive or stupid behaviour i.e. A single mother
Yes, it was wrong
People should be free even to fail in a self-destructive way, even if their inability to contribute is a detriment to society.
But, no one else really would care about someone or something if that person was no longer useful to them.
Think about it like this, you might hypothetically someday decide to go off and live on an unclaimed island, away from society and government so you could be at peace and out of societies systems.
But now that you are not useful in anyway, and your death would not affect society, they wouldn't think twice about killing you off if they thought removing a wild card was the safe thing to do.
I'm sure other people agree with me on total human personal freedom, but I have yet to meet them. I even get called scum and cancer for thinking a person should be free to build or destroy it's own life no matter what.
What is with your wierd obsession with demonizing single mothers?
>You can't excuse cruel behaviour by saying it's "in their nature."
I am not.
Please read the posts before responding to them.
so, what do you have against single mothers? it's their life and their problem, not my business to interfere, help, or care.
Makes me wonder if there was a way to get them to work and play well without the mental gymnastics. Poor Kumiko had a meltdown on that bridge.
>manipulated them into doing it
1) He gave them a shitload of chances to refuse. More than fair, if anything.
2) All of them ended up enjoying the ride, and it was safe to assume that they would anyway.
They are a good example of stupid self destructive behaviour and they are hilarious to me
Well, being born out of wedlock is one of the strongest predictors for poverty and criminal activity. So yes, you objectively do have a reason to care, unless you like being robbed.
You're splitting hairs. Sensei does it partly because he is cruel. That's how he does things. It's one thing to push people to succeed, and another to coerce them into doing so, when many of them would rather enjoy their youth.
>All of them
>All of them
>All of them
>All of them
>You're splitting hairs.
No, I am not.
But keep trying to talk your way out of this silly misunderstanding you had.
Non-nerds aren't real people.
>A tiny minority who weren't serious get buttfrustrated and quit
>create enduring happy memories and a sense opf great accomplishment for everybody else
Wow what a monster.
How can you look her in the face and tell her she's just part of a statistic?
You're just a statistic, girl.
Nothing personal.
Christ, Sup Forums really is on the spectrum
You can't divorce a person's actions from their personality you pseudo-intellectual retard. There are several methods to get the students to agree to pushing forward and taking the practice seriously. Coercing them by guilt is not the best way. Sensei was cruel, that's how he was best suited to do it. That doesn't excuse his actions.
A better teacher could've convinced them by encouragement and positive reinforcement. Or let them enjoy their youth, seeing as how almost precisely zero intended for the club to be anything more than a time to bond with friends.
>tfw Aoi was my favorite because I'm not even a slacker, I'm a plain quitter
>You can't divorce a person's actions from their personality
Yes you can, and you must.
>Coercing them by guilt is not the best way.
That is a valid point.
But the personality behind that decision is not.
Fuck off.
if anything they deserve it for not being stubborn and staying in the club while continuing to be shitty slackers just to be annoying to him
>you must.
Why?
In Aoi's case she didn't have time to work her ass off studying and going to cram school and also git gud playing sax for nationals. Band was a place for her to have fun with friends. Probably the only time she could have fun and relax even though she's just a kid. It had nothing to do with annoying Taki.
>Why?
Because otherwise you are punishing thought crime.
But a personality isn't a thought. It's a physical expression that people experience (and can suffer from).
>But a personality isn't a thought.
*This* is splitting hairs.
Next you'll be arresting paedophiles for child abuse that never happened.
>Band was a place for her to have fun with friends
this is what really makes him wrong. band is not a militia, it's a place to hang out, have fun, and make friends, while sharing a certain interest.
>*This* is splitting hairs.
Uh, no it isn't?
And I'm not sure your metaphor works here. If a pedo is getting arrested it's probably because they had CP which is a crime.
Yeah, which is why I think it would have been better if he went to a school with a strong music program instead. I'm sure his wife would have been happy if he took anybody to nationals, regardless of what school they came from. To take a group of kids from zero to nationals caused a lot of stress and drama which I thought was sort of unnecessary (but very entertaining to watch).
I never understood why Taki-sensei let her leave.
so it's an anime version of whiplash?
the first half is at least
How did he manipulate them? If they wanted to piss around he wouldn't have bothered.
If they tried he would offer his full help and support.
Why would he try with a group of people who have no intentions in putting the effort in.
Lets just ignore Yuuko trying to fuck him over.
Why does Kumiko look the best in these pictures? Every single one just blows me away.
...
Honestly, I'm not sure who looks better between Kumiko and Reina in this pic, but goddamn I cannot wait for flower field Reina.
he literally asked them "who wants to go to finals" and when they started sucking he told them "no u dont btfo with that weak shit"
They didn't mean it and only said yes out of social pressure. They said this.
Not gonna lie, Taki is pretty cute but hot.
You're the one that's cute, Reina.
There is no real difference between being "genuine" and "manipulative". People like to think otherwise because facing their own deterministic nature is too painful.
...
Taki is fucking based as a teacher.
What I got from reading this thread
>He's manipulative
>He doesn't care if a girl cries
>He's only doing it for himself
Taki values initiative. He says shit how it is. If you suck, you suck and you can cry all you want, it's not gonna make you better. Kumiko cried, but she improved since she's wanted to improve.
When it comes to working under him, everything you do is your own responsibility and he just offers you the tools, as it should be. You can quit anytime or they could've chosen to not go to the nationals. Maybe he predicted that they would go for nationals because of social pressure, etc., but that didn't change that they chose to go for nationals. Not once did the band members change their mind about that. They only wanted it to be easier instead of actually working harder.
Of course Taki himself would like to go for nationals as well, which apparently is a bad thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as he leaves the actual decision up to them, which he always did. Of course he'll have his own opinion about stuff, but he always acted in a fair manner and that is what matters.
The band members are no victims. You're not a victim just because you fail to say what you want to say. This isn't some nazi bullshit where voicing your own opinion will get you hurt as we could see with Ribbon. I guess I have to wait for season 2 to actually find out, but I think it's likely that even after all of her drama bullshit, he still won't treat her any different, because he's not a little pussy.
During the scene where he met Kumiko at night because she forgot her phone we could see that he does care about his students even if music is one of his priorities. Whenever possible he acts extremely down to earth and he even jokes around with the others, it's just that most of the time something like that isn't possible because they tend to act like little shitty brats. But he still manages and that's why he's great.
That's just how Kumiko is. She's amazing.
But user, if a girl cries you MUST make any concessions demanded of you.
Otherwise you're an evil misogynist.
You're still here?
And if you're making someone cry you should probably back off a bit. You don't have to comfort them but since they get the message you should stop twisting the knife.
Crying is actually an evolved mechanism for getting sympathy. It's manipulative by its very nature.
They literally created that so called "social pressure" themselves and some of them actually were serious about competing but felt pressure into becoming slackers the "social pressure" excuse goes both ways, but at least slackers have the option of quiting unlike the serious guys.
More like it's sign of suffering and a plea for mercy. By the way if you're not moved by someone crying it's a good indicator that something's wrong with you.
I am moved. However, as a human being I have the choice of acting pragmatically regardless of what my personal feelings are.
Not him, but you don't need to back off unless you're going to far, which he never did. He said stuff about how by now she should be able to play better and she couldn't handle it.
He said what he felt like needed to be said and nothing he said was false. The idea of him being intentionally cruel is nothing but your own interpretation.
She wasn't good enough and if that was too cruel for her she should try to become better, which she probably can if she really wants to. And if she can't then a serious band just isn't the right place for her.
As a teacher you can only do so much and as we can see Taki tried everything possible. Even those that didn't get to play during the nationals had fun and were involved with the band via other methods.
The other guy is somewhat right with what he said. The fact that we feel sympathy with someone who is crying is not only because of emotions, but because crying actually releases chemicals that make us soften up. In that sense it may be a plea for mercy, but it's also a last resort method to get what you want.
Also being moved does not mean you have to give in to everything because of it. Sometimes you need to be harsh, otherwise those who do nothing but cry will always continue to do nothing but cry and expect to get whatever they want.
>admonish someone
>they start sobbing
>continue to put them down
I hope you don't do this at least. That one scene with Taki still bothers me. Let up a bit like damn.
what's up with you and singling out single mothers? it's not like there's one single scenario in which a woman becomes one.
It's funny how much you take established social norms for granted. There's no law telling me to back off when someone starts crying.
Autism: the post
You know someone lost the argument when they pull out the autism card.
How so?
Are you telling me you need to back off solely because someone is crying, ignoring context and everything else? So crying in itself is everything you need in case you're feeling uncomfortable and expect to get away with it?
Autism: the thread you mean.
He was an incredibly well written character in any case. Hibike is a fucking great show. I hope the don't wreck it with the new season.
Autism: the board you mean.
Welcome to the club.
Except we were never talking about "laws". You know someone is autistic if they pull out the "established social norms" card.
It would be nice if you did, user.
Glad you stopped by.
I agree the writing is great. New season will be fantastic I'm sure.
>anyone who questions social norms is an autist
This is what normie tourists actually believe.
>It would be nice if you did
Sometimes being nice isn't the right thing to do, user.
It's just like you shouldn't by your child some candy just because it started crying or throwing a tantrum.
To be honest in most cases giving in is actually the easier way. It's a lot more difficult to be harsh because you feel like that it is what needs to be done when you're feeling bad for that person.
In this context yes it does mean you're autistic.
>person is crying
>Why should I feel bad? Just because society tells me to? YOU CAN'T MAKE ME
Their S2s are usually better.
>It's just like you shouldn't by your child some candy just because it started crying or throwing a tantrum.
I don't think that works here. It'd be more like the child made a mistake, you told them they were wrong and continued to do so even though they understand they did something wrong and felt bad about it.
Feeling bad is one thing. Behaving in a particular way is another.
Just so we're clear I'm not saying you should "give them what they want" (since you see crying as manipulation). Just simply backing off (moving on from admonishing to, maybe, saying things they could do to improve or giving other people instructions, anything to let that person calm down and regain composure) would be much better. It's the least anyone can do, really.
>even though they understand they did something wrong and felt bad about it.
That's the thing though, does she really understand that she needs to get better?
From what I've seen from school and partially working with kids, they will literally cry about everything and afterwards continue to do exactly as before. Especially if you go soft on them.
Taki made sure she got the message.This won't guarantee that she'll eventually improve, but there is no doubt that she knows that she needs to improve. She knows she won't get any pity from him in case she's not good enough, so the only way to get into the band is by actually being good. If she's ambitious and responsible enough this is the most likely way to get her to want to improve and it's also how it should be done.
In that sense Taki may be cold, but he's not wrong. As I said, he's not cruel for the sake of being cruel. He's cruel because that is what needs to be done. The girl he made cry is not a victim. This is also evident in how Kumiko and Hazuki reacted. He's harsh, but not evil and everyone can see that.
The only way to dislike or even hate someone like him is when you're unhappy with yourself/your abilities and don't want others to point them out. Taki made that girl cry, but the reason she got into this situation in the first place was because of her incompetence. This isn't victim blaming, because she's not actually a victim. Taki told her she wasn't good enough and she broke down. Kumiko's section did well and it nothing 'cruel' happened there.
Think of it likes this, if it turned out badly then he was wrong, if it turned out good then he was right. You can't really decide if an action is wrong or right by itself, you have to take the result into account as well. I think he was kind of an ass for doing so if that's what you really want to ask.
Unsure of what to make of sensei. No, I didn't think of him that way, OP. Actually, he kind of reminded me of the opposite of a strict John Keating. Bullying the kids to play their best was the furthest thing in my mind. Let's be real, it's the furthest thing in the writer's mind as well. Ergo, are you reading too much into it?
To be honest, I like that he's imperfect. Orwellian in his methodology rather than being the typical old sage Yoda.
Christ, should he have done it? Or is he like that senpai in Sakamoto-kun who manipulates people to do his bidding without dirtying his hands? No matter, he's still the catalyst that made them reach great heights. For sure, he's not a saint and the benefits they reaped might've been incidental. Entertainment-wise, he's the best part of the show. So yuri memes aside, I like this new take on him. So much so that I dare say it really makes you think.
That is a very comfy Kumiko.
...
you just sound like a pussy to be honest
her mouth looks very weird
Sorry for the long delay.
>Uh, no it isn't?
Yes, it is.
The reason we only have the word thought crime and nothing else is because to sentence people for what goes on in their heads is not normal. The term thought crime itself stems from a speculative and Dystopian novel.
>And I'm not sure your metaphor works here. If a pedo is getting arrested it's probably because they had CP which is a crime.
Which is precisely my point. In the real world, people get arrested for what they DO, not for what they WANT to do.
Separating the two is necessary.
Taki is just a tough loving dad who pushes you through the door of ambition.